Jacob as Temple Priest

[Ron Beron]

I am a bit of a johnny-come-lately to this discussion, but I found something that seems to shed some light on the subject. I was perusing Vetus Testamentum and found this article under Blood and the

Nations in Ritual and Myth by John B. Geyer which reads,

Rituals connected with the Day of Atonement are extensive and complex in the Hebrew Bible and it would not be appropriate to explore them all in this article. It is enough to point out that Leviticus xvi is a major text dealing with the rituals and that there is a lot of blood in evidence there. Aaron, who stands for the high priest, is to take a young bull and a ram as the offerings for himself (v. 3) and his household, and he is to take two he-goats and a ram as the offerings for the people (v. 5). Having presented the bull, he will slaughter it (v. 11). Some of the blood he will sprinkle with his finger on the surface of the kprt and do so seven times in front of it (v. 14). He shall then slaughter the people s goat and sprinkle it on and around the kprt as with the bulls blood (v. 15). Later he shall take some of the bulls blood and some of the goat s blood and put it all over the horns of the altar (v. 18).

That is the ritual. But what is it all about? The text says that the bull is to be offered as a hf t through which Aaron is to kipper for himself and his household and the goat is the hf t to kipper for the people, hf t is traditionally translated as 'sin-offering' and kipper as ' to expiate' or 'make atonement for.' But, who has sinned? The blood is applied to the sanctuary, to the kprt and to the horns of the altar, none of which has sinned and none of which needs a sin-offering. Jacob Milgrom (1991) is surely right in saying that the hf t was a purification offering, that its function was to purge (kipper) and that the yom kippurwas not the Day of Atonement, but the Day of Purgation.

Milgrom (p. 1009) translates Lev. xvi 11 as: "he shall bring forward his bull of purification offering to effect purgation for himself and his household". The one who was being purged was not the one who was offering the sacrifice. In Lev. viii 15 Moses decontaminates the altar with blood (p. 256). The hf t in Lev. xvi purges the sanctuary and the sancta on behalf of the person who caused their contamination by physical impurity or inadvertant offence. The hf t in Lev. iv removes the uncleanness (tm* h). This impurity belongs to the realm of death. Only life can be its antidote. Blood is offered on the altar "for it is the blood that ransoms by means of life" (Lev. xvii 11). Blood as life purges the sanctuary. "It nullifies, overpowers and absorbs the Israelites' impurities that adhere to the sanctuary, thereby allowing the divine presence to remain and Israel to survive" (Milgrom, pp. 711-12). This puts an entirely different light on the purpose of the ritual.

[mfbukowski]

One of my absolute favourite bands.

Who is that?

[volgadon]

Boris.

[zerinus]

By the way David, here is my reply to the last post you addressed to me in the thread on

[David Bokovoy]

I thought we already discussed that. The sins of the

[WalkerW]

Don't feel bad, I have it on good authority that despite these challenges, you sure play a mean pinball.

Bwahaha.

[WalkerW]

Boris.

Boris the Spider?

Or Boris the Blade, the Bullet Dodger, or the Sneaky [Explicit] Russian? (what movie?)

[David Bokovoy]

I am a bit of a johnny-come-lately to this discussion, but I found something that seems to shed some light on the subject. I was perusing Vetus Testamentum and found this article under Blood and the

Nations in Ritual and Myth by John B. Geyer which reads,

Thanks, Ron, for drawing our attention to this interesting article. Blood is life.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I am not the smartest guy in the room, but doesn't David's view of generational punishment violate this?

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam

[David Bokovoy]

I am not the smartest guy in the room, but doesn't David's view of generational punishment violate this?

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It's not my view. It's the Old Testament's view. But this issue was discussed in a previous thread and the point was made that the verbal tense in the Article of Faith points to future, i.e. "final" judgment, not punishment in the present tense.

So I will be spiitually punished for something my great-grandfather did? Some "good news" message you got there.

[WalkerW]

What's interesting is that we often express collective guilt in one way or another, despite the objections to it from some.

For example, "This country is going to hell in a hand basket."

[mercyngrace]

So I will be spiitually punished for something my great-grandfather did? Some "good news" message you got there.

What's interesting is that we often express collective guilt in one way or another, despite the objections to it from some.

For example, "This country is going to hell in a hand basket."

Just my opinion but I believe this communal culpability or salvation simply refers to the consequences of our behavior. Our individuals actions often mean that we are stuck living with people who reflect our collective values and it often takes generations or some profound adversity to push the cultural pendulum back in the other direction.

We talk about vicious cycles created within families by the choices and legacy of a single individual. We have but to look at the magazine covers in the grocery checkout line to see the cumulative effect of our individual choices on society at large.

When we talk about the individual responsibility toward society, we really aren't saying much more than Edmund Burke who wrote:

When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. (commonly quoted as All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.)

In the case of communal culpability, we add that you are responsible for your inaction. Likewise, your righteous contributions to a good society

bless (save) both yourself and the community.

[zerinus]

You

[David Bokovoy]

The answer to that was given in post #182 of the thread on social justice, of which the following is a quote:

But that information doesn

[Ron Beron]

What's interesting is that we often express collective guilt in one way or another, despite the objections to it from some.

For example, "This country is going to hell in a hand basket."

This reminds me of Jung's Collective Unconscious which shows that the personal unconscious is a "personal reservoir of experience unique to each individual, while the collective unconscious collects and organizes those personal experiences in a similar way with each member of a particular species." In much the same way, Adam opened the door for him and later generations to sin. Personally, we are responsible for our own. I believe that Jews accept the premise that all are born free from sin, but they have a inclination towards such.

[volgadon]

Boris the Spider?

Or Boris the Blade, the Bullet Dodger, or the Sneaky [Explicit] Russian? (what movie?)

He's come to a sticky end

Don't think he will ever mend

Never more will he crawl 'round

He's embedded in the ground

[USU78]

He's come to a sticky end

Don't think he will ever mend

Never more will he crawl 'round

He's embedded in the ground

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKqc76dRT48

[zerinus]

But that information doesn

[Calm]

Just my opinion but I believe this communal culpability or salvation simply refers to the consequences of our behavior.

I would also say that it probably relates to the fact that we often have to clean up other people's messes even when we were not involved in making the mess......

[mercyngrace]

I would also say that it probably relates to the fact that we often have to clean up other people's messes even when we were not involved in making the mess......

That's exactly what I was thinking, Cal. The consequences of our actions visit generations into the future whether it's a child growing up without a grandfather because his ran off and left the family or a child with fetal alcohol syndrome because a mother spent her pregnancy drunk.

When we see homeless people living in tent cities or panhandlers on every corner and our kids don't bat an eyelash, their desensitized hearts are a consequence of our collective choice (whether it's a disregard for the plight of the poor or idleness or a celebrated drug culture or whatever reason beggars find themselves in their circumstance). One reason I always give to beggars when I have cash on hand is because I know my children are watching me. I don't want them to be able to turn a blind eye to another in need or to be able to justify themselves by saying "That guy made his own bed, let him lie in it." Those would be the consequences of my sins, were I to unrighteously turn the beggar away. I don't want my sins visited upon my children.

Everything we do brings consequences and it takes time and effort to undo them. Sometimes, three or four generations.

[mfbukowski]

The consequences of our actions visit generations into the future whether it's a child growing up without a grandfather because his ran off and left the family or a child with fetal alcohol syndrome because a mother spent her pregnancy drunk.

The money devoted to the alcohol industry

The pornography industry

The tobacco industry

Illegal drugs

Organized crime

The consequences of infidelity: pregnancies, broken families, confused kids, child abuse, spousal abuse, elder abuse

The defense budget, local police budgets

Do we pay for communal sins?

Oh, I think so!

[zerinus]

If the biblical statement meant that God will punish everyone who sins, then there would be absolutely no need to place a limitation on the punishment to the third and fourth generation. If the text really meant what you assume, i.e. that the children are punished for the sins of the fathers until they repent, then clearly the text would not place a limit upon how long that punishment would last. Punishment would not last to the third and fourth generation of the sinful parents, it would last until those that hate God stopped hating him!

I think that is what

[urroner]

Hoping not to derail this thread, I have to ask some questions.

1. Did the early Jews, pre-Exile, believe in a post-death resurrection of the physical body?

2. If they did:

a. Did they believe that all people, or just some would be resurrected?

b. What did they believe the post-mortal life was like?

3. Did suzerainty play into effect at all in the ancient belief system or am I just barking up the wrong tree here?

[Robert F. Smith]

Hoping not to derail this thread, I have to ask some questions.

1. Did the early Jews, pre-Exile, believe in a post-death resurrection of the physical body?

2. If they did:

a. Did they believe that all people, or just some would be resurrected?

b. What did they believe the post-mortal life was like?

3. Did suzerainty play into effect at all in the ancient belief system or am I just barking up the wrong tree here?

I am not sure what you mean by "suzerainty," but scholars generally discount any possibility of resurrection in the pre-exilic Israelite belief system, and they largely wave aside any reference to Job 19:25-27, as though it is the exception which proves the rule that they find no evidence for such belief in an afterlife or in a resurrection.

On the other hand, a colleague pointed out to me recently that Israelite tomb inscriptions from Khirbet el-Qom and from Khirbet beit-Lei each have a plea to Yahweh to save them. If death included no afterlife, from what do they want to be saved? The same question could be asked about ancient Egyptian pleas written on tomb walls and in their funerary literature (Book of the Dead, Coffin Texts, Pyramid Texts, Book of Breathings, etc.), but everybody knows that life for the righteous continued forever after death in Egyptian religion.

Beyond that, we don't know what Israelites thought of the disappearance of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, nor how they viewed the calling up from the dead of Samuel by the Medium of En-Dor. Popular Israelite religion is largely absent from the Bible, which is a product of the elite, priestly class, but archeology tells us that the common people had a quite different view of things.