Gay Church Employee loses Temple Recommend and Job

[Jeff K.]

God hates blood transfusions. The JWs were right!

Before you attempt any understanding of theology you might want to do some reading, otherwise you will sound semiliterate. Transfusions was an interpretation of blood for pagan rights.

Aside from that your lack of respect for present prophecy reflects in your normal disdain for the church. But we all already knew that.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff, show me how homosexuality is destroying today's society. For kicks, you are welcome to use Canada as your test case.

H.

Canada is rarely a country of consequence for such things, except where AIDS is concerned. Gaetan Dugas was, if not the biggest contributor, possibly ground zero (according the American Journal of Medicine prior to realizing it was impolitic). Are you stating that what he did was not a major contributor to damaging various societies? I would be suprised if you did. Gaetan Dugas is one of those Canadians with world wide impact, this time it is most unfortunate.

[sjdawg]

Canada is rarely a country of consequence for such things, except where AIDS is concerned. Gaetan Dugas was, if not the biggest contributor, possibly ground zero (according the American Journal of Medicine prior to realizing it was impolitic). Are you stating that what he did was not a major contributor to damaging various societies? I would be suprised if you did. Gaetan Dugas is one of those Canadians with world wide impact, this time it is most unfortunate.

I didn't realize that 1984 was considered "today's" society. (althought the behavior of Gaetan Dugas was deplorable.)

A more recent article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on November 1, 2007 dismisses the Patient Zero hypothesis and claims that AIDS transited from Africa to Haiti in 1966 and from Haiti to the United States in 1969 (taken from Wikipedia......judge the accuracy of the information for yourself)

and another article

http://query.nytimes...&pagewanted=all

Just defending Canada with this one. But I also think that in general the global community as a whole (homosexual and heterosexual) is more aware of the risks associated with sexual activity and have taken steps to mitigate.

[Jeff K.]

1984 is much more "today's" society than you seem to think given we live with the effects of those excesses today.

In regards to both articles, you will note the hypothesis is criticized but not disproven and the New York Times relative to the American Medical Journal is not worth mentioning.

Genetic analysis of HIV provides some support for the Patient Zero theory. Dugas is now believed to be part of a cluster of homosexual men who traveled frequently, were extremely sexually active, and died of AIDS at a very early stage in the epidemic.[6]

However, a number of authorities have since voiced reservations about the implications of the CDC Patient Zero study, and characterisations of Dugas as being responsible for bringing HIV to such places as Los Angeles and San Francisco. While Shilts's book does not make such an allegation, the rumour that Dugas was the principal disseminator of the virus became widespread. In 1988, Andrew R. Moss published an opposing view in the New York Review of Books.[7]

A more recent article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on November 1, 2007 dismisses the Patient Zero hypothesis and claims that AIDS transited from Africa to Haiti in 1966 and from Haiti to the United States in 1969.[8][9]

Robert R. has since been confirmed as the first victim of HIV/AIDS in North America,[10] having died at aged 16 in May 1969. He reported having experienced symptoms since 1966.

Prevelance of the number of gay lovers "the gridler" went through was the catalystic process that made it a world wide plague. Plague as in pandemic disease that causes death.

[sjdawg]

1984 is much more "today's" society than you seem to think given we live with the effects of those excesses today.

In regards to both articles, you will note the hypothesis is criticized but not disproven and the New York Times relative to the American Medical Journal is not worth mentioning.

Prevelance of the number of gay lovers "the gridler" went through was the catalystic process that made it a world wide plague. Plague as in pandemic disease that causes death.

We are still living with the effects of Joseph Smith's polygamy (Warren Jeffs/Winston Blackmore) but I don't think you like it if people use those actions to condemn mormonism.

My only dispute with your use of the the actions of a man who has been dead for the past 25+ years is that I don't think it is reflective of today's society and the actions of the homosexual community. It may not have even been representative of the actions of the homosexual community in the early 80's. Gaetan Dugas had no respect for anyone's health including his own.

[semlogo]

Before you attempt any understanding of theology you might want to do some reading, otherwise you will sound semiliterate. Transfusions was an interpretation of blood for pagan rights.

Aside from that your lack of respect for present prophecy reflects in your normal disdain for the church. But we all already knew that.

Your sarcasm meter is broken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White

Your ideas about my "disdain for the church" are pure projection on your part, given your continued slander of the church by association with your backwards ideas.

[Calm]

but I think the Stake Pres. maybe should have taken away the recommend after something sexual actually happened and not before, he should have given him a warning and keep the recommend.

Dating has always been "sexual" behaviour in my mind because it is motivated by physical attraction. "Unchastity" in LDS teachings is just not about the ultimate act, but everything leading up to it, thoughts and external actions. I don't see how anyone can come away from years of YM and YW or the temple ceremony or any of a number of experiences in the Church and not get that.

As to gay thoughts not being sinful, I also think it's been made very clear this is the case if the thoughts are not the result of active behaviour that promotes them. How does dating gay men not promote such thoughts? It is likely as well that the online chats were much in the same vein.

[Calm]

I just don't agree that taking away someone's recommend for not doing anything wrong is the right thing

So you don't see dating gay men as "doing anything wrong" (if one makes the assumption that homosexual behaviour is sinful as the LDS faith does)?

[LDSToronto]

Canada is rarely a country of consequence for such things, except where AIDS is concerned. Gaetan Dugas was, if not the biggest contributor, possibly ground zero (according the American Journal of Medicine prior to realizing it was impolitic). Are you stating that what he did was not a major contributor to damaging various societies? I would be suprised if you did. Gaetan Dugas is one of those Canadians with world wide impact, this time it is most unfortunate.

Well, I just looked out my window, and civilization is still humming along at a brisk and joyous pace here in Upper Canada, so it appears you have yet to show how homosexuality is destroying today's society.

And since you seem to have a penchant for my home and native land, please, continue to poke around. We're friendly.

H.

[bookofmormontruth]

This line of reasoning simply places homosexuality into a category, with all other sins, rather than placing it on a pedestal, away from all other sins.

A "pedestal"? Do you not believe homosexuality is a sin?

Check the CDC website, and you will see that the heterosexual community has also suffered from STI's...

No one is arguing against that. Anyone who lives in sin will suffer one way or another. The homosexuality community has suffered more statistically with AIDS and higher rates of co-infections. We can probably add higher rates of suicide unfortunately.

On a side note: plagues can be defined as an epidemic or pandemic even though it isn't a common term in epidemiology and also can be defined as a bacterial infection.

[bookofmormontruth]

Jeff, show me how homosexuality is destroying today's society. For kicks, you are welcome to use Canada as your test case.

H.

How about "will" destroy society? Would a society survive with just homosexuals?

[LDSToronto]

A "pedestal"? Do you not believe homosexuality is a sin?

I do not believe homosexuality is a sin.

H.

[Duncan]

So you don't see dating gay men as "doing anything wrong" (if one makes the assumption that homosexual behaviour is sinful as the LDS faith does)?

[/qu

I don't think it helps his cause any but unless he has sex with anyone then no I don't see it as being sinful. I don't know what is more tempting, two gay men dating or a guy and a girl dating, both can give into stuff that breaks chastity lines. I guess I just see it as he is playing with fire but unless he has had gay sex or other sexual activity shouldn't have his recommend taken away.

[LDSToronto]

How about "will" destroy society? Would a society survive with just homosexuals?

Probably not, but it also wouldn't survive if we were all crack addicts either. Let's talk about real options, shall we?

H.

[sjdawg]

Well, I just looked out my window, and civilization is still humming along at a brisk and joyous pace here in Upper Canada, so it appears you have yet to show how homosexuality is destroying today's society.

And since you seem to have a penchant for my home and native land, please, continue to poke around. We're friendly.

H.

You must be looking out a different window than me. I just see snow.

[Duncan]

Dating has always been "sexual" behaviour in my mind because it is motivated by physical attraction. "Unchastity" in LDS teachings is just not about the ultimate act, but everything leading up to it, thoughts and external actions. I don't see how anyone can come away from years of YM and YW or the temple ceremony or any of a number of experiences in the Church and not get that.

As to gay thoughts not being sinful, I also think it's been made very clear this is the case if the thoughts are not the result of active behaviour that promotes them. How does dating gay men not promote such thoughts? It is likely as well that the online chats were much in the same vein.

if we all lived like that then no one would ever get married, have kids or just have sex for fun. You HAVE to be attracted to someone else to cause you to get married its how you control it, not kill it, that makes the difference. God wouldn't put sexual feelings in us to not do anything with, he says get amrried, have sex, have kids all that stuff

[bookofmormontruth]

I do not believe homosexuality is a sin.

H.

Okay makes sense now. The "LDSToronto" name confused me.

[sjdawg]

. God wouldn't put sexual feelings in us to not do anything with, he says get amrried, have sex,

Isn't that exactly what gay people are saying when asking for equal rights?

[bookofmormontruth]

Probably not, but it also wouldn't survive if we were all crack addicts either. Let's talk about real options, shall we?

H.

Well we don't even agree about homosexuality being a sin so talking about "real options" is irrelevant.

[Duncan]

Isn't that exactly what gay people are saying?

[/quo

To use a quotation from Barney Rubble, "could be, cooooouuuuuld be!"

[LDSToronto]

Okay makes sense now. The "LDSToronto" name confused me.

I live in the Toronto area, and I am LDS. I can understand your confusion.

H.

[Calm]

if we all lived like that then no one would ever get married, have kids or just have sex for fun. You HAVE to be attracted to someone else to cause you to get married its how you control it, not kill it, that makes the difference. God wouldn't put sexual feelings in us to not do anything with, he says get amrried, have sex, have kids all that stuff

Yes, with heterosexual feelings. I think the Church is very clear that it does not believe that this is so with homosexual feelings. They are to be controlled in the sense of removed if possible, limited to the very smallest amount if not. Dating creates a situation where attraction is promoted, something that is seen as potentially positive with heterosexual dating (but even here people are encouraged not to date outside the faith or people who do not have the same ideals that they do) but not in any case positive with a homosexual context just as it would not be seen as in any case positive in a situation between two people married to someone else but would be interpreted instead as promoting adulterous feelings something that would be seen as sinful. One is not even supposed to date when separated or even going through a divorce but only after the divorce is finalized (and temple recommends may be pulled in these cases).

Just to be clear:

Dating when it can lead to marriage is seen as a positive thing overall (though wrong in some cases where marriage would not be viewed as the best result), dating when it cannot lead to marriage is seen as inappropriate and even sinful (as in adulterous or unchaste in cases of homosexual dating).

church handbook:

Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction

Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance.

If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ, the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth.

While opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.

If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances.

Dating in the same gender would be defined as "homosexual behaviour".

[LDSToronto]

Well we don't even agree about homosexuality being a sin so talking about "real options" is irrelevant.

If the truth of the matter is that homosexuality has/is/will destroy civilization, regardless of the how you or I classify it, then it bears some investigation.

I acknowledge that, if we were all gay, we'd probably have little hope of sustaining a society, unless some agreement between gay men and gay women was entered into to procreate.

Now, let's explore society today.

H.

[Calm]

Also:

9. The First Presidency has declared that

[Jeff K.]

Well, I just looked out my window, and civilization is still humming along at a brisk and joyous pace here in Upper Canada, so it appears you have yet to show how homosexuality is destroying today's society.

And since you seem to have a penchant for my home and native land, please, continue to poke around. We're friendly.

H.

Some Canadians are friendly, some are smart, some, well some are so self centered they can be a catalyst for pandemic. and some are not, not friendly, not smart, and not self centered. Takes all kinds of people to make a nation. You might do well to know that, even as you hold disdain for the church and its morality. I would suggest that your observations are rather limited, but that is understandable. Better to be blind to faults than see the pain of truth.