The So-Called "Middle Way"

[Senator]

CFR

This is awaiting your response.

[consiglieri]

This is awaiting your response.

I think Jeff is still sore I consider Brigham Young a prophet . . .

But really, Jeff, you have made quite an allegation against Senator, and it is now your duty to back it up.

We're waiting.

Double CFR!

[Jeff K.]

Tenor of your posts, constant griping about everything the church does. When you were so upset at the conference talk about teaching gospel doctrine.

You don't remember these things Consig?

Or when people have lamented that you "used" to be a defender of the church and yet now you only criticize. Remember that Consig? Or are those expunged from your memory?

If I might also add, please reread the post that senator referenced.

[consiglieri]

Tenor of your posts, constant griping about everything the church does. When you were so upset at the conference talk about teaching gospel doctrine.

You don't remember these things Consig?

Or when people have lamented that you "used" to be a defender of the church and yet now you only criticize. Remember that Consig? Or are those expunged from your memory?

I was talking about the same allegation you made against Senator, my lad.

[Jeff K.]

Quote

Senator, on 16 March 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

So wickedness is no longer wickedness as long as one can claim zealousness coupled with ignorance?

Quote

Doing it for God is a big plus, too.

Neither Consig nor Senator seem to understand the context of greater light and greater condemnation. Perhaps it is something they missed while they were dismissing the prophets and apostles?

As to dismissing prophets, indeed your argument dismisses Samuel, Moses, Joshua and others

[Jeff K.]

I was talking about the same allegation you made against Senator, my lad.

Consig

Senator always agrees with you. I have never seen him disagree. He is your very own sockpuppet. My point remains valid.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 16 March 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Tenor of your posts, constant griping about everything the church does. When you were so upset at the conference talk about teaching gospel doctrine.

You don't remember these things Consig?

Or when people have lamented that you "used" to be a defender of the church and yet now you only criticize. Remember that Consig? Or are those expunged from your memory?

I was talking about the same allegation you made against Senator, my lad.

It was also nice to hear you honestly acknowledge your dismissal of prophets and apostles, at conferences. I appreciate your candor in the matter because it creates the context you seem to ducked or shied from so often.

[Mark Beesley]

Seems like some of the sniping needs to be nipped in the bud.

[consiglieri]

Seems like some of the sniping needs to be nipped in the bud.

What can I say?

I bring out the best in people . . .

[Jeff K.]

You are right Mark. I rise to baiting much too easily.

[consiglieri]

You are right Mark. I rise to baiting much too easily.

A common trait of the wide-mouth bass.

[Jeff K.]

Let me know when you once again decide to leave that ever so large building from which you cast your aspersions upon those who follow the prophets and apostles. Life is really much better when you live in the faith and embrace the Lord and His Servants.

I don't hang my ego on my calling. I don't manipulate those I teach. I don't seek to impress with pseudo history.

You should try it Consig. It will make you a better man and a better teacher. Maybe they will even give you "your" calling back. Not that it was every really yours before.

[TAO]

I'm not very familiar with New Order Mormon, but is sounds very similar to the StayLDS philosophy (from the little I've read).

http://www.newordermormon.org/

Let's just say I've had bad experiences with them. =/

I try not to dwell on the past =/.

It's why I gave you the advice about never being bitter... long story... but not one I wanna talk about really =(. I mean... if you want to via PM, I guess... but it's not a good thing to talk about to say in the least.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The biggest problem I see with the "middle way" is what we are told in Revelations 3:16, that those who are lukewarm, being neither hot nor cold are spewed from Christ's mouth.

I think it is better for one's salvation and eternal progression to be honest with your loved ones and your fellow man and let them know you are inactive then to pretend that you are active.

The lukewarm are hiding so much from the world and seems that the Lord has more compassion for those who were honest about falling away then those who put on a show and deceived everyone around them.

[DH]

You take the scriptures out of context, and make up stuff that isn't in there.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. If you read the entire Bible, I think you'll find that the general tenor of its message is against violence and killing. You seem to take specific verses that you think support the idea of a violent god (trees) and focus entirely on them, and thus blind yourself to the Bible's overall message of nonviolence (the forest).

Frankly, the Bible contradicts itself, and everybody knows that you can use the Bible to justify just about anything, including murder (killing innocent people). We all have to pick and choose, and I'd rather choose the morality of not killing people than the immorality of killing people. The overall message of the Bible leads me to believe that God favors nonviolence, and I honestly believe that he did not tell the Israelites to commit genocide. The Biblical authors stuck that in to justify their behavior, but that clashes with the overall message and with what Christ taught.

Please tell me where does Christ tell us to "sacrifice ourselves" for the unrighteous?

Easy: "Turn the other cheek."

He also showed us by example. He allowed himself to be tortured and murdered rather than use his godlike powers to defend himself and wipe out the sinners.

It doesn't seem odd to you that Christ had armed bodyguards if he was such a peaceful person, you think of his promises of return to destroy the wicked his joking?

Really? Who says he had armed bodyguards?

We are to love, but doesn't even the most loving parent chastise there child when they do wrong?

Loving parents chastise their children, to be sure, BUT THEY DON'T FRICKIN' KILL THEM!! HELLO!!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Frankly, the Bible contradicts itself, and everybody knows that you can use the Bible to justify just about anything, including murder (killing innocent people).

I disagree, I have yet to see any contradictions if you take the scriptures in context. Once again it's taking the scriptures out of context that causes these so called contraindications.

We all have to pick and choose,

I can't disagree with you more, picking and choosing is what makes the Bible so contradictorily, if people studies all the scriptures (which for me includes the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, and the inspired messages from the living prophets) with sincerity and much patience they will see that there are no contradictions if we take everything in context with the rest of the scriptures. Also having the fullness of the Gospel through the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ helps with this a lot!

Easy: "Turn the other cheek."

He also showed us by example. He allowed himself to be tortured and murdered rather than use his godlike powers to defend himself and wipe out the sinners.

You really need to read the New Testament more, the Apostles were always armed, Christ promises that while he comes to save the world he comes to destroy it in his second coming (not so non violent if you ask me) and he violently attacked and drove the temple (his Father's house) those who would disrespect and defile it (once again a obvious act of anger and violence).

Turn the other cheek refers to if someone smote your on the cheek, which in Christ't time is the equivalent of a yo momma joke. He is saying if someone insults you to turn the other cheek, not if someone is try to kill you turn the other cheek. That makes no sense if some is killing you why turn your cheek your already DEAD!

Also you do understand that in the garden Christ begged Heavenly Father to let this cup pass from him, Christ didn't want to die, he didn't want to get beaten. But this was needed for him, he had to suffer these things to pay for our sins, but Christ desired for it to be otherwise, the important part is he submitted to the Father's will for HIM (not necessarily for us since we are not the Christ) instead of doing his own.

Really? Who says he had armed bodyguards?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, all 4 Gospels have his Apostles with weapons and them protecting Christ, most famously all four gospels tell us how Peter smote off the ear of one of the soldiers of the High Priest when they attacked Christ in Gethsemane. This is very significant because there is only a few things that are recorded in all 4 gospels, most are only recorded in 1 or 2 of the Gospel some times 3 but rarely all 4, this is why context is important you need to carefully study all 4 of the Standard Gospels (plus the BoM) to get the complete picture of Christ's mortal ministry on this Earth!

Loving parents chastise their children, to be sure, BUT THEY DON'T FRICKIN' KILL THEM!! HELLO!!

I agree parents are not expected to kill there children ANYMORE, but before the atonement of Jesus Christ they were! Look at the OT, parents had to have there children stoned to death for something as simple as cursing there mother or father. (see Exodus 21:15) That the Lord that he came and fulfilled these punishments! The same goes for us and God, Christ has atoned for our sins if we accept him and his Gospel, repent of our sins, and have the ordinances of salvations (specifically baptism and confirmation) done by the proper priesthood authority.

Without this atonement through the way Christ commands us to do it, when he return we are his enemy and he will destroy us! Thankfully through the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ we know that any who are not Sons of Perdition will not suffer endless punishment though! It shows the great mercy of Jesus Christ that even those who never accept the atonement in this life or the next will still be shown mercy after paying the price for there sins all by themselves!

The Gospel is a message of mercy, but it is also a message of the terrible and just wrath of God towards those who sin and do not repent.

[The King's Servant]

I was cleaning out some old files and I found this link that I have had for a couple of years or more. The middle way was something I became a bit interested in, before I left the church, when I was looking for reasons to stay. I did, ultimately, leave the church, but I think I have, finally, embraced many of the principles stated in this article....basically, clinging to that which was good and leaving the rest (those issues with which I had problems).

Just wondering what currently active LDS think about this way of being in the church...

http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html#Foreword_and_Disclaimer

I have no idea how you can reconcile the concept of God in Mormonoism, with the non-contingent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent deity of Christianity. For Mormons, God is an exalted human being - for Christians, he is a non-contingent Spirit, eternally existing as God. You cannot reconcile the two. Futhermore, in Mormonism, Christ in the first born spirit of the Mormon Deity - while in Christianity He is the enfleshed eternal God, without beginning or end. The two are antithetical, and the middle way is simply an attempt to reconcile that which is irreconcilable. In other words, it is an attempt to blend heresy with orthodoxy. You cannot have a different God and a different Christ than Christians have and expect to be accepted as Christians. You cannot have a foot in both camps - choose this day whom you will serve. The double minded are unstable in all their ways.

[Jeff K.]

Actually it seems you limit yourself. The fact is "YOU" cannot reconcile the two. We members of the Church of Jesus Christ have not found it difficult to reconcile. But then that is a question of faith isn't it? Do we belief Christ to be exalted? Do you? I would presume that your belief that Christ can be exalted based upon the writings in the New Testament since Christ did indeed live upon this earth as a mortal and yet now is not, would you and I not agree to such exaltation?

As to being double minded, an interesting choice of words. Why would Christ pray to Himself in Gethsemane? Or asked Himself to forgive others upon the cross, was He double minded?

[The King's Servant]

Actually it seems you limit yourself. The fact is "YOU" cannot reconcile the two. We members of the Church of Jesus Christ have not found it difficult to reconcile. But then that is a question of faith isn't it? Do we belief Christ to be exalted? Do you? I would presume that your belief that Christ can be exalted based upon the writings in the New Testament since Christ did indeed live upon this earth as a mortal and yet now is not, would you and I not agree to such exaltation?

As to being double minded, an interesting choice of words. Why would Christ pray to Himself in Gethsemane? Or asked Himself to forgive others upon the cross, was He double minded?

How can YOU reconcile the two, Chrsitianity and Mormonism, when Joseph Smith said all our creeds are an abomination and Christian professors all corrupt? Nope. One is right, the other is wrong. Only the double-minded who are afraid to take a stand would claim you can reconcile the two. You cannot be neither hot nor cold, or God will spew you out of His mouth.

[SilverKnight]

How can YOU reconcile the two, Chrsitianity and Mormonism, when Joseph Smith said all our creeds are an abomination and Christian professors all corrupt? Nope. One is right, the other is wrong. Only the double-minded who are afraid to take a stand would claim you can reconcile the two. You cannot be neither hot nor cold, or God will spew you out of His mouth.

Who is trying to reconcile the Mormon Godhead with Trinitarianism?

Not the audience of StayLDS.com.

As most people visiting that website have experienced a crisis of faith and are leaning towards a more agnostic/secular worldview, they probably want nothing to do with the God described in the bible.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 14 April 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Actually it seems you limit yourself. The fact is "YOU" cannot reconcile the two. We members of the Church of Jesus Christ have not found it difficult to reconcile. But then that is a question of faith isn't it? Do we belief Christ to be exalted? Do you? I would presume that your belief that Christ can be exalted based upon the writings in the New Testament since Christ did indeed live upon this earth as a mortal and yet now is not, would you and I not agree to such exaltation?

As to being double minded, an interesting choice of words. Why would Christ pray to Himself in Gethsemane? Or asked Himself to forgive others upon the cross, was He double minded?

How can YOU reconcile the two, Chrsitianity and Mormonism, when Joseph Smith said all our creeds are an abomination and Christian professors all corrupt? Nope. One is right, the other is wrong. Only the double-minded who are afraid to take a stand would claim you can reconcile the two. You cannot be neither hot nor cold, or God will spew you out of His mouth.

If the authority to baptise were taken away, then use, most would call it a corruption. Indeed, isn't that what protestants called the Catholic church when they broke away, or more to the point, the dual charges between the Greek Orthodox and Catholic church's? It seems to me you do not apply the same standards to yourself that you wish to provide for members of the church of Jesus Christ. So when evangelicals broke away from their various churches and started their own sects, was it in response to corruption?

There is no issue with our omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Never has been since it was Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ who started our church. Now tell us, who founded yours?

[Nathair/|\]

How can YOU reconcile the two, Chrsitianity and Mormonism, when Joseph Smith said all our creeds are an abomination and Christian professors all corrupt? Nope. One is right, the other is wrong. Only the double-minded who are afraid to take a stand would claim you can reconcile the two. You cannot be neither hot nor cold, or God will spew you out of His mouth.

How can you reconcile Christianity and Evangelicalism or Christianity and Lutheranism or Christianity and Greek Orthodoxy?

[The King's Servant]

Who is trying to reconcile the Mormon Godhead with Trinitarianism?

Not the audience of StayLDS.com.

As most people visiting that website have experienced a crisis of faith and are leaning towards a more agnostic/secular worldview, they probably want nothing to do with the God described in the bible.

Certainly not me. Those who believe there is a middle way.

[The King's Servant]

How can you reconcile Christianity and Evangelicalism or Christianity and Lutheranism or Christianity and Greek Orthodoxy?

Fairly easily, since all Christians, regardless of tradition and liturgy, accept the truths of the Nicene Creed and the ecumenical councils of the church.

Mormonism, not being Christian, rejects these historic statements of faith and, in fact, calls them an abomination.

[SilverKnight]

Certainly not me. Those who believe there is a middle way.

There is a middle way in mormonism (really any faith) - and it has nothing to do with reconciling the Trinity with the Godhead.

You are missing the entire point of this thread to grind upon your favorite mormon heresy.

The 'middle way' of Mormonism is assuredly not some attempt to straddle Protestant and Mormon doctrine at the same time.

It's mostly a paradigm shift that keeps the "good fruit" of mormonism and rejects problematic issues - Cafeteria Mormonism if you will.

As a Catholic, I am sure you are aware of the same process in your own faith.