The So-Called "Middle Way"

[Jeff K.]

And you know more about history than I.

We have gone down this path before and you came up short. Yes, I know more about history than you do. Both church history and in general.

[Jeff K.]

LDS Guy, meet JeffK.

Then one would have to condemn the prophets who also ordered the death of thousands, and the kings, and the policy of genocide. I try to step out of the presentism mode and look at the motivating factors of the time including God's laws and commandments..

[Jeff K.]

So Consig do you have nothing more to ad? Do you have a valid counterpoint or simply more empty rhetoric?

[consiglieri]

I try to step out of the presentism mode

And presentism.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 16 March 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

It isn't an evangelical theology that I am aware of. I wouldn't cast such a view upon their church and I dare say I am more informed to their belief system (or lack thereof since its rigidity is not concise) than you Consig. My cousins husband in Virginia is a pastor and his wild gestations aside during sermons he is fairly thoughtful on his doctrinal stance.

Yes, Jeff.

You know more about Mormonism than I.

You know more about the scriptures than I.

You know more about Church History than I.

And now you know more about evangelical theology than I.

Why am I not surprised?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You have a talent for stating the obvious.

edited to add

Edited to add

Some of us converts have had a wide breadth of experience in the world, it has strengthened our faith because when we have found something that rings true, we adhere to it because we know how precious those truths are.

Sometimes members who have been members either since they were children or born into the covenant don't necessarily see such a view as "sophisticated" enough or "intellectual" enough. They want the "nifty" or "cool" rumors to explore. Often they overlook the basics in history and attempt to change square pegs because they want to be able to string their "cool" stuff into the weft and weave of history. Regardless of its efficacy or accuracy. They then get lost in the their content while forgetting what is important.

[Senator]

Some of us converts have had a wide breadth of experience in the world, it has strengthened our faith because when we have found something that rings true, we adhere to it because we know how precious those truths are.

Sometimes members who have been members either since they were children or born into the covenant don't necessarily see such a view as "sophisticated" enough or "intellectual" enough. They want the "nifty" or "cool" rumors to explore. Often they overlook the basics in history and attempt to change square pegs because they want to be able to string their "cool" stuff into the weft and weave of history. Regardless of its efficacy or accuracy. They then get lost in the their content while forgetting what is important.

I believe Consig is a convert as well.

[consiglieri]

I believe Consig is a convert as well.

How is it Senator knows me so much better than JeffK?

[Senator]

The premise is false. Saul was never wicked, he carried out what he believed to be the will of God and sought earnestly after it. Saul was very faithful and when he received a revelation correcting his view, he did not hesitate to embrace it. A wicked man would have rejected God and continued on holding the honor and self esteem of his people above that of knowing what is right and true.

So wickedness is no longer wickedness as long as one can claim zealousness coupled with ignorance?

[Senator]

How is it Senator knows me so much better than JeffK?

Kindred spirits

[Jeff K.]

Well yes, it seems consig, and often those who find themselves at odds with the prophet and apostles are indeed "kindred" spirits. They have many divergent reasons for agreeing with each other, and yet, they almost always seem to be in the same place.

An amazing coincidence.

[Jeff K.]

So wickedness is no longer wickedness as long as one can claim zealousness coupled with ignorance?

Which is more heinous, the act of an unclean prostitute touching you, or the act of a pharisee seeking to find fault with you? Or does it go to motivation?

More to the point, which is more heinous the act of a prophet telling the Hebrews to kill every man woman and child in a town or city, or the worship of a hedonistic god?

[Jeff K.]

I believe Consig is a convert as well.

So was Sidney Rigdon, and he thought he knew more than Joseph Smith. Felt he was too good to support a prophet who obviously wasn't as educated as he was.

[LDS Guy 1986]

So was Sidney Rigdon, and he thought he knew more than Joseph Smith. Felt he was too good to support a prophet who obviously wasn't as educated as he was.

As it says in proverbs pride begets the fall.

Pride of wealth and pride of knowledge are the two deadliest snares that catch people.

[ELF1024]

Hey wow, wasn't there an OP around here somewhere?

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch you two try and figure out who has the biggest brain-pan....

[Senator]

Which is more heinous, the act of an unclean prostitute touching you, or the act of a pharisee seeking to find fault with you? Or does it go to motivation?

More to the point, which is more heinous the act of a prophet telling the Hebrews to kill every man woman and child in a town or city, or the worship of a hedonistic god?

I'll take that as a yes.

[Senator]

Well yes, it seems consig, and often those who find themselves at odds with the prophet and apostles are indeed "kindred" spirits. They have many divergent reasons for agreeing with each other, and yet, they almost always seem to be in the same place.

An amazing coincidence.

The prophets and apostles find themselves at odds with each other at times.

What's your point?

Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you just needed to make a jab.

[consiglieri]

As it says in proverbs pride begets the fall.

Pride of wealth and pride of knowledge are the two deadliest snares that catch people.

You know, LDS Guy, this could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

[consiglieri]

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch you two try and figure out who has the biggest brain-pan....

It's already figured, Elfinator.

Jeff knows more about everything than I do.

Except for knowledge about me, and there Senator has him beat.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

So wickedness is no longer wickedness as long as one can claim zealousness coupled with ignorance?

Doing it for God is a big plus, too.

[Senator]

Doing it for God is a big plus, too.

I'll need to rethink on the actions of some of my Muslim brothers.

[consiglieri]

I'll need to rethink on the actions of some of my Muslim brothers.

According to Jeff, should they later convert to Christianity, their current activites are to be considered righteous because done in the name of God.

We have yet to hear from Jeff whether it makes any difference should they remain Muslim.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jeff K.]

LDS Guy 1986, on 16 March 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

As it says in proverbs pride begets the fall.

Pride of wealth and pride of knowledge are the two deadliest snares that catch people.

You know, LDS Guy, this could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

Chuckle, as long as you don't ask Consig to apply it to himself.

[Jeff K.]

Senator, on 16 March 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

So wickedness is no longer wickedness as long as one can claim zealousness coupled with ignorance?

Doing it for God is a big plus, too.

Neither Consig nor Senator seem to understand the context of greater light and greater condemnation. Perhaps it is something they missed while they were dismissing the prophets and apostles?

[Senator]

Perhaps it is something they missed while they were dismissing the prophets and apostles?

CFR

[Jeff K.]

Senator, on 16 March 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'll need to rethink on the actions of some of my Muslim brothers.

According to Jeff, should they later convert to Christianity, their current activites are to be considered righteous because done in the name of God.

We have yet to hear from Jeff whether it makes any difference should they remain Muslim.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Not sure what senator thinks. But I suppose if he projects his life experience into a people who do not share it and then condemns them for it, he may indeed need to rethink, drastically.

If one only knows the Old Testament as the guide to one's actions, and one does not have living prophets to guide them, how should one act with heretics, according to the law of Moses?

If one only has an environment of retribution and tribal warfare as the model for adulthood, how is one supposed to presume to react differently?

I think the Lord unlike those quick to judge, takes such things into account when looking at the spiritual and eternal perspective. Consig is of course free to disagree, even when he presents no real alternative beyond empty rhetoric and his normal baiting.

Consig also offers a falsehood. When one does something in the name of God, one is not automatically held accountable. Again he follows a false premise. I have never stated that doing something and attaching the name of God was sufficient. Rather I have stated that if one believes they are doing Gods will, they will be judged differently. That motivation is the ultimate factor, not outcome. The New Testament bears witness to such.

Rather than engage in some interesting dialogue regarding motivation, and perhaps how much motivation affects action, Consig has instead decided that empty rhetoric, bitterness, snide remarks and baiting are the essentials for his argument. He will of course continue to do so. But I still maintain and he has yet to provide a counter, that motivation is what we are judged by. A man's heart is what the Lord see's, not the outward appearence or action.