Can Women Become Goddesses?

[stYro]

To a certain extent I think we are dependent on one another.

The original 12 apostles were virtual super-men when the group was intact, able to heal people, teleport, speak in tongues, walk out of prison walls, and so forth. I do not think there has been a group of mortals who equalled them when their unity was intact. But when their union was fractured (by Judas for instance), they became as ordinary men.

Someone correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe the word elohim to be gramatically a plural word, though used with singular verbs, much like the word group or collective. The original twelve apostles might have been an elohim in prototype form.

To fall back on one of Paul's metaphors, the body is made of different parts. It cannot survive without them. Maybe likewise an elohim is made of different parts, who cooperate in a relationship that is beyond what we (who may be those parts in prototype form) can conceive of.

The plant kingdom consists of plants. The animal kingdom consists of animals. The human kingdom consists of humans. The Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of the Elohim) may well consist of something beyond what we conceive of when we talk about exalted humans.

What we do not have a record of is the role of the twelve apostles' wives in the power their group had. However I think the husband-wife group was the mini-group, twelve advanced examples of which could form a quorum of twelve apostles. But I am not sure the records we have access to would support this idea, so consider this to be no more than speculative opinion.

stYro

[jadams_4242]

I find Mormon theology to be really interesting, but I often have a hard time understanding it. The D&C says that men can attain exaltation as gods in the Celestial Kingdom, but what about women? Is it accurate to say that they become goddesses, or is it more accurate to say that they do not become goddesses, but are instead exalted beings who are married to gods? Thanks in advance to everyone who can help me with this.

Yes Goddesses......

[Avatar4321]

Yes. It's not obvious?

[Koloborator]

Thanks to all of you folks. I really appreciate your openness toward answering my questions and educating me about the Mormon faith. Also, your willingness to dive into what I have heard Mormons describe as "speculative theology" is refreshing. Mormonism truly seems to work for many people.

But I've got to admit, there is something about the idea of becoming a god that I find deeply unsettling. I think it has to do with words like "achievement" and "independence", which are used in this thread to describe exaltation. My faith background, which is Catholic, emphasizes ideas such as submission to Christ, and the radical uniqueness and "otherness" of God. I believe that one of my spiritual goals is to accept my complete and permanent dependence on God. That's why I always do a little mental double-take whenever I hear Mormons talk about being worthy of things. I reflexively think "I will never be worthy of God, and will rely completely on Jesus' mercy."

That's just me. The Holy Ghost pursues different people in different ways. Thanks again.

[TAO]

Thanks to all of you folks. I really appreciate your openness toward answering my questions and educating me about the Mormon faith. Also, your willingness to dive into what I have heard Mormons describe as "speculative theology" is refreshing. Mormonism truly seems to work for many people.

No prob. =)

But I've got to admit, there is something about the idea of becoming a god that I find deeply unsettling. I think it has to do with words like "achievement" and "independence", which are used in this thread to describe exaltation.

Hmmm... I don't know about others, but I don't think exaltation really is about achievement or independence... sorry if we've been giving you that idea... what it is really about is obedience and perfection... to be exalted... you have to act a certain way. If you act even slightly different, you cannot be exalted... so it's a high-standard sort of... and the other thing is... if you break the rules, you lose your exaltation... so truly, there is no independence about it... you must obey the laws, or you cannot have it.

Sorry if we didn't make that clear... it's a confusing subject =P.

My faith background, which is Catholic, emphasizes ideas such as submission to Christ, and the radical uniqueness and "otherness" of God. I believe that one of my spiritual goals is to accept my complete and permanent dependence on God. That's why I always do a little mental double-take whenever I hear Mormons talk about being worthy of things. I reflexively think "I will never be worthy of God, and will rely completely on Jesus' mercy."

I understand. I desire a similar thing... a dependence on God... to be separate from the world. However, for me... I need a God whom I can understand and relate to and communicate with... that's why I distance myself from "otherness" so to say. For me... losing myself in service to God is the ultimate goal... that is what is meant by being worthy really... self sacrifice. It's a really hard goal to reach there... and unless I give myself up totally to God, it won't happen... I won't be worthy. For me, I look on Christ as someone special, someone who loves me and will help me with all his heart... that is what I think is unique about him... and I strive to be like him. By being like him, I won't devalue his uniqueness... I will make it more beautiful =).

But yah... that's just how I think... I'm not sure if I explained it all to well.

That's just me. The Holy Ghost pursues different people in different ways. Thanks again.

No problem, and may the Holy Ghost be with you always.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[USU78]

2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

You need to read the Book of Mormon. It would really help you understand us better.

[ed2276]

But I've got to admit, there is something about the idea of becoming a god that I find deeply unsettling.

That is because you have a view of yourself limited by your humanity.

Would the idea of having power to move a mountain unsettle you? The Lord said, if you have as little faith as a grain of mustard seed you could command a mountain to be moved and thrown into the sea, and it would do so. What if you had faith as big as the world? What could you do? What if you didn't have faith at all, but had pure knowledge? Do you think it unsettling that with pure knowledge and clothed with Glory from God that you could not only move a mountain, but create one? And if you could create a mountain, why not a world?

I think it has to do with words like "achievement" and "independence", which are used in this thread to describe exaltation.

If you have children, do they not grow up and achieve? Do they not gain independence? Yet, they still are your children and you will always be their father. There will never be a time when they will succeed you as their father. You will always hold that place and God commands that you honor your father and mother; Are you not a child of God? Paul says you are. Will you always be a child of God? If you will, then God will always be your father, and you will forever honor and esteem him...worship him. And, no matter how much you achieve, or whatever measure of independence you obtain, The Father will always be your God, and the Lord your Saviour.

You will not be totally independent and ever achieve so much that there will come a time you have no need of God, or the Lord. In fact, we see from the scriptures that the Heavenly Family works and achieves together.

In Psalms there is the Heavenly Council scene where God is talking to other gods, the children of the Most High, and directing them, commanding them, reprimanding them. These other gods obviously are not so independent of God, the Most High, that they have become greater than Him, or have no need of Him, or are beyond the rule and authority of the Most High.

The Saints are told that they will be resurrected and given glory; they will be joint-heirs with Christ; they will be given robes and crowns, and sit on thrones ruling with the Lord. There is no sense that these gods/saints have become independent of the Lord, though they are gods. They rule with the Lord, not without Him. While they sit on thrones, we are told it is only because the Lord will give it to them to sit with Him in His throne.

The Heavenly Council scenes of the scriptures show us that rather than being independent or in isolation as a god in the heavens, we, as gods, will be dwelling in the midst of other gods, and the Most High God, the Father, and the Lord, where each god's dominion and rule is a collaborative affair.

My faith background, which is Catholic, emphasizes ideas such as submission to Christ, and the radical uniqueness and "otherness" of God.

The idea of becoming a god doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that such a god is not submissive to Christ. God is only radically unique and other in relation to man. However, we are told that when Christ appears and we are raised we shall be like Him. In our resurrected and glorified condition our state is of likeness to God, rather than otherness.

I believe that one of my spiritual goals is to accept my complete and permanent dependence on God. That's why I always do a little mental double-take whenever I hear Mormons talk about being worthy of things. I reflexively think "I will never be worthy of God, and will rely completely on Jesus' mercy."

Do you ever do a double-take when you consider that the Lord Himself was "worthy of things."

Revelation 5:12

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

What did the Lord say of those who would not take up their crosses and follow Him?

Matthew 10:38

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

What did Paul say about those who do labor for the Lord?

1 Timothy 5:17

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Conducting yourself to be worthy of His name in no way means that we have no need of Christ's mercy, atonement, resurrection, or forgiveness. No Mormon would ever think such a thing.

That's just me. The Holy Ghost pursues different people in different ways. Thanks again.

He does. I hope the Holy Ghost convinces you, by what I have shared with you here, that your understanding of what Mormons think of godhood, etc. may not have been complete. And, believe me, what little I have written about these concerns of yours doesn't do the matter justice.

There are others here on the board who have a far greater understanding about these things than I do.

[mfbukowski]

Your dilute the power and glory of godhood in my opinion by making it seem like a group effort. It is an individual achievement, only the few who have the proper ordinances done and endure to the end in faith will achieve Godhood. When you achieve Godhood you are not longer dependent on anyone or anything at all you are completely self reliant, all powerful, all knowing, and absolutely and eternally perfect.

Just for the record, this poll should say 100% that women are totally equal to men in receiving exaltation, and in fact, MUST be "one flesh" with their husbands in achieving it.

If you don't know this, you haven't been to the temple. Period. It's that simple.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks to all of you folks. I really appreciate your openness toward answering my questions and educating me about the Mormon faith. Also, your willingness to dive into what I have heard Mormons describe as "speculative theology" is refreshing. Mormonism truly seems to work for many people.

But I've got to admit, there is something about the idea of becoming a god that I find deeply unsettling. I think it has to do with words like "achievement" and "independence", which are used in this thread to describe exaltation. My faith background, which is Catholic, emphasizes ideas such as submission to Christ, and the radical uniqueness and "otherness" of God. I believe that one of my spiritual goals is to accept my complete and permanent dependence on God. That's why I always do a little mental double-take whenever I hear Mormons talk about being worthy of things. I reflexively think "I will never be worthy of God, and will rely completely on Jesus' mercy."

That's just me. The Holy Ghost pursues different people in different ways. Thanks again.

Learn more about Catholic "theosis" and also realize that God (Eloheim) will always be infinitely above us as will Christ. We can never equal their glory. Eloheim will always be our Father just as your father will be your father no matter how successful you will become in life, and you should always honor him.

As we progress, he progresses by our progression.

A very silly analogy would be someone standing on a stepladder on an elevator. The person on the stepladder- (oops- edited) would still be just as high "above" the people in the elevator car no matter how high the elevator went, as the person was above them when the elevator was on the ground.

[Magyar]

My wife is way ahead of Elder Holland on this one. She's always insisted that I think of her as a goddess (um, I mean GODDESS! Excuse me, dear!).

Yep, my Beloved is well on her way to exaltation as well, if anyone ever was.

[Nathair/|\]

In answer to the thread title, I just want to add my voice to those who say, "They already are!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFpJdbHTGHs

[David Bokovoy]

Thanks to all of you folks. I really appreciate your openness toward answering my questions and educating me about the Mormon faith. Also, your willingness to dive into what I have heard Mormons describe as "speculative theology" is refreshing. Mormonism truly seems to work for many people.

But I've got to admit, there is something about the idea of becoming a god that I find deeply unsettling. I think it has to do with words like "achievement" and "independence", which are used in this thread to describe exaltation. My faith background, which is Catholic, emphasizes ideas such as submission to Christ, and the radical uniqueness and "otherness" of God. I believe that one of my spiritual goals is to accept my complete and permanent dependence on God. That's why I always do a little mental double-take whenever I hear Mormons talk about being worthy of things. I reflexively think "I will never be worthy of God, and will rely completely on Jesus' mercy."

That's just me. The Holy Ghost pursues different people in different ways. Thanks again.

Any claim that deified men and women will be somehow "independent" Gods, no longer worshipping our Father in Heaven and Christ runs counter to LDS scripture. As explained in Joseph's vision regarding the Celestial Kingdom, those who enter therein "are gods, even the sons of God

[LDS Guy 1986]

Any claim that deified men and women will be somehow "independent" Gods, no longer worshipping our Father in Heaven and Christ runs counter to LDS scripture. As explained in Joseph's vision regarding the Celestial Kingdom, those who enter therein "are gods, even the sons of God

[mfbukowski]

Not having to depend on Heavenly Father after exaltation does not make him any less the mean by which we obtained godhood, we worship him as our Father and God, but we are no longer dependent on his power since we are all powerful ourselves.

An interesting exercise in word juggling, I must say.

We couldn't have gotten there without him but somehow we are "independent". Uh, Ok, I guess. Just doesn't strike me as humble for the sublime, incredible gift you could never have earned yourself, but whatever floats your boat.

I wonder if just that kind of hubris would be enough to disqualify one from exaltation- but what do I know?

I really wonder what "all powerful" means when you got all that power from someone else as a gift you could never deserve.

I wonder if that is the way Christ looks at it.

[nicolasconnault]

( I refuse to worship Christ, I only worship Heavenly Father as the Scriptures say, anyone who worships more than one God invokes the wrath of Heavenly Father)

The wrath of God must have been poured out upon the Nephites then:

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him

3 Nephi 11:16-17

[nicolasconnault]

For the LDS Theology to claim we are dependent on Heavenly Father after exaltation means there is no God, for God cannot be what he is if he is dependent, and he has to be dependent if he his heirs and the joint-heir of Christ are dependent on him. If God is dependent on anything that means he lied to the prophets of the Old Testament and does not exist since God does not lie.

Not having to depend on Heavenly Father after exaltation does not make him any less the mean by which we obtained godhood, we worship him as our Father and God, but we are no longer dependent on his power since we are all powerful ourselves.

You still do not answer the question: Will husbands be independent of their wives once they reach Godhood?

[Lareliw]

What about those people whose spouses are not LDS, or for that matter, not Christian? I am a Seeker, I suppose, someone who is interested in learning about the Church and my husband is quite anti-LDS. So if I were to convert, be baptized, etc, I would not have a husband who would be willing to join me in this. In a lot of ways, he considers himself an agnostic at best. I pray for him daily. It is difficult for me that as a Christian woman and wife I do not have a husband who is willing to be the spiritual head of our household. I also wonder, what does the LDS church teach on a situation like mine?

You still do not answer the question: Will husbands be independent of their wives once they reach Godhood?

[WalkerW]

Koloborator

That's hilarious.

[nicolasconnault]

What about those people whose spouses are not LDS, or for that matter, not Christian? I am a Seeker, I suppose, someone who is interested in learning about the Church and my husband is quite anti-LDS. So if I were to convert, be baptized, etc, I would not have a husband who would be willing to join me in this. In a lot of ways, he considers himself an agnostic at best. I pray for him daily. It is difficult for me that as a Christian woman and wife I do not have a husband who is willing to be the spiritual head of our household. I also wonder, what does the LDS church teach on a situation like mine?

There are two parts of LDS doctrine that are relevant to your question, so please consider them together:

1. Exaltation, the highest degree of glory which God will give to His children, is only attainable as a married couple, sealed by the proper authority in LDS temples. Righteousness and faithful obedience to God's commandments is also required by both spouses.
2. God is perfectly loving and perfectly wise, and will provide sufficient opportunities for all of his children to receive the highest of his blessings. Often we do not know how this will occur (as in your situation) but we trust that, if we do our very best, we will receive his very best (which is much better than we could ever imagine)

I hope this his helpful, please wait until more posters have replied before taking this as official doctrine The best place to find answers is probably on http://mormon.org

[David Bokovoy]

I will assume that you are speaking of my claim that all gods are self sufficient and ind pendant, since we are given all the power and glory of God as his heirs and the joint-heir of Christ.

Your mistake is you put something in your statement that I didn't state or claim. I never said we would no longer worship Heavenly Father ( I refuse to worship Christ, I only worship Heavenly Father as the Scriptures say, anyone who worships more than one God invokes the wrath of Heavenly Father) and give praise and glory to Christ. I said that as a god we are not dependent on anything or anyone just like Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

We will still praise Christ and worship Heavenly Father, but we are no longer dependent on them or anything else. For us to remain dependent on anything means that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are dependent on something and that means the Holy Bible is a big lie since it testifies the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are all powerful, all knowing (with the exception that Christ does not know the time he will return only the Father knows that), and completely independent of everything.

For the LDS Theology to claim we are dependent on Heavenly Father after exaltation means there is no God, for God cannot be what he is if he is dependent, and he has to be dependent if he his heirs and the joint-heir of Christ are dependent on him. If God is dependent on anything that means he lied to the prophets of the Old Testament and does not exist since God does not lie.

Not having to depend on Heavenly Father after exaltation does not make him any less the mean by which we obtained godhood, we worship him as our Father and God, but we are no longer dependent on his power since we are all powerful ourselves.

It's true, I believe that your presentation of these issues is a bit problematic. The Prophet Joseph Smith did not share your view of exalted

[TAO]

What about those people whose spouses are not LDS, or for that matter, not Christian? I am a Seeker, I suppose, someone who is interested in learning about the Church and my husband is quite anti-LDS. So if I were to convert, be baptized, etc, I would not have a husband who would be willing to join me in this. In a lot of ways, he considers himself an agnostic at best. I pray for him daily. It is difficult for me that as a Christian woman and wife I do not have a husband who is willing to be the spiritual head of our household. I also wonder, what does the LDS church teach on a situation like mine?

I have thought upon this issue, and have come up with two conclusions, which I hope are correct (but they are based upon my speculation with a small amount of scriptural support)

I think either....

A) if your husband eventually changes, then he will be with you as your celestial partner

or

B) if you are the only worthy of the pair, then someone else will be given to you to be your eternal companion... and that person will be perfect beyond your dreams of the perfect guy =D

will happen. But however God does it, it will be so it is fair for all of his children, that I know and tell you - his fairness will be true.

Either way, those who are exalted don't come in singles... they are always with someone else, that they are =).

[Lareliw]

I have enjoyed Mormon.org and also LDS.org, but there is so much information sometimes it is difficult to sift through! It is quite helpful, it is a confusing thing, eternal life. Since none of us have been there, at least in memory

There are two parts of LDS doctrine that are relevant to your question, so please consider them together:

1. Exaltation, the highest degree of glory which God will give to His children, is only attainable as a married couple, sealed by the proper authority in LDS temples. Righteousness and faithful obedience to God's commandments is also required by both spouses.
2. God is perfectly loving and perfectly wise, and will provide sufficient opportunities for all of his children to receive the highest of his blessings. Often we do not know how this will occur (as in your situation) but we trust that, if we do our very best, we will receive his very best (which is much better than we could ever imagine)

I hope this his helpful, please wait until more posters have replied before taking this as official doctrine The best place to find answers is probably on http://mormon.org

[Lareliw]

Another thing that sort of popped up in my mind as I was pondering this is, if my husband is not LDS, and not Christian, I am left devoid of a priesthood holder or spiritual leader in my life. What does one do in this situation?

[TAO]

Another thing that sort of popped up in my mind as I was pondering this is, if my husband is not LDS, and not Christian, I am left devoid of a priesthood holder or spiritual leader in my life. What does one do in this situation?

You do your best to act as the spiritual leader then, for your children =). For priesthood related things, look to other friendly church members who would be glad to help you with things.

Hmm... I'm pretty sure some others will offer some good advice... so yah... don't take mine all too seriously since I'm not even married yet =P.

[Deborah]

Another thing that sort of popped up in my mind as I was pondering this is, if my husband is not LDS, and not Christian, I am left devoid of a priesthood holder or spiritual leader in my life. What does one do in this situation?

1 Corinthians 7 and D&C 74 say this:

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

It all will work out and those who are righteous will receive their entitled blessings.