Can Women Become Goddesses?

[Lareliw]

That is a very good scripture, thank you Deborah

1 Corinthians 7 and D&C 74 say this:

It all will work out and those who are righteous will receive their entitled blessings.

[LDS Guy 1986]

You still do not answer the question: Will husbands be independent of their wives once they reach Godhood?

Yes and No, they will not "need" each other but they will still be husband and wife are one flesh. This had not impact on what I am discussing, it is a loaded question and a not point.

[LDS Guy 1986]

It's true, I believe that your presentation of these issues is a bit problematic. The Prophet Joseph Smith did not share your view of exalted

[zerinus]

I refuse to worship Christ, I only worship Heavenly Father as the Scriptures say, anyone who worships more than one God invokes the wrath of Heavenly Father.

Then you are not following the Book of Mormon very well, or the Doctrine and Covenants for that matter!

2 Nephi 25

:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must

bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul;

and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

D&C 29

:

1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I AM, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and

humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer

.

[zerinus]

What about those people whose spouses are not LDS, or for that matter, not Christian? I am a Seeker, I suppose, someone who is interested in learning about the Church and my husband is quite anti-LDS. So if I were to convert, be baptized, etc, I would not have a husband who would be willing to join me in this. In a lot of ways, he considers himself an agnostic at best. I pray for him daily. It is difficult for me that as a Christian woman and wife I do not have a husband who is willing to be the spiritual head of our household. I also wonder, what does the LDS church teach on a situation like mine?

If you were to be baptized, you would not lose any blessings if your husband didn't join the Church or otherwise failed to fulfill the conditions of a celestial glory. The Church's advice to you would be to live faithfully with your husband (assuming that he is willing to live faithfully with you), and God has a way of sorting things out in the end so that you will not lose any eternal blessings through no fault of your own.

[Calm]

LDSguy, it seems to me your characterization of God is based on the philosophical idea that something that is perfect cannot be dependent. God is seen as sufficient and independent and whole, etc. Of course, that makes one wonder why he needs to create anything.

And once something becomes perfect, there is a belief that it cannot be 'divided' or become less than it is or imperfect as if it could do that, it wouldn't be perfect. Therefore if something or someone is perfect it is unique and whole in and of itself.

OTOH, in LDS thought we become gods by becoming one with the Father. At that point then, I suppose that one can define mankind at that level as independent suggesting that if one chose, one could cut oneself off from God and still be perfect, the omnis, etc. as God himself is. However, if one views that we are gods because we partake of the divine nature of God, once we cut ourselves off from that divine nature are we not cutting ourselves off from the living water, the source of our glory, etc. and therefore if we cease to be one with God, we cease to partake of the divine nature and thus cease to be gods.

And since agency exists for God the Father as it does for us, the possibility that he could become imperfect is there, the probability being that he is perfect (as in whole and complete) so there he has no desire to do so. Would we even want to be independent of God once we became one with him?

The fundamental phrase in LDS thought of how we become gods is that we become one with the Father and the Son. That is a definition of dependence right there to me. There is also no doctrine that states what happens afterwards or at least none that indicates that we, after having become one, then separate from God again.

[Deborah]

To me the correct word is interdependent, in other works all working in harmony for the same goals and for the benefit of all.

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDSguy, it seems to me your characterization of God is based on the philosophical idea that something that is perfect cannot be dependent. God is seen as sufficient and independent and whole, etc. Of course, that makes one wonder why he needs to create anything.

And once something becomes perfect, there is a belief that it cannot be 'divided' or become less than it is or imperfect as if it could do that, it wouldn't be perfect. Therefore if something or someone is perfect it is unique and whole in and of itself.

OTOH, in LDS thought we become gods by becoming one with the Father. At that point then, I suppose that one can define mankind at that level as independent suggesting that if one chose, one could cut oneself off from God and still be perfect, the omnis, etc. as God himself is. However, if one views that we are gods because we partake of the divine nature of God, once we cut ourselves off from that divine nature are we not cutting ourselves off from the living water, the source of our glory, etc. and therefore if we cease to be one with God, we cease to partake of the divine nature and thus cease to be gods.

And since agency exists for God the Father as it does for us, the possibility that he could become imperfect is there, the probability being that he is perfect (as in whole and complete) so there he has no desire to do so. Would we even want to be independent of God once we became one with him?

The fundamental phrase in LDS thought of how we become gods is that we become one with the Father and the Son. That is a definition of dependence right there to me. There is also no doctrine that states what happens afterwards or at least none that indicates that we, after having become one, then separate from God again.

And if you read anything I posted you would clearly know that I have never said we would separate from God only that we would no longer be dependant on his power since we are exalted like he is, if you won't listen I can't discuss anything with you.

Have a good night and God Bless

[LDS Guy 1986]

Then you are not following the Book of Mormon very well, or the Doctrine and Covenants for that matter!

2 Nephi 25

:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must

bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul;

and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

D&C 29

:

1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I AM, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and

humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer

.

First off D&C doesn't say worship Christ it says pray in the name of Christ.

Also like it is in 2 Nephi there is also verses that say worship Christ in the new and old testament. These are men most likely praising Christ, but even if they are worshiping Christ they are not doing so in accordance with the will of Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ.

Christ constantly taught the people to give glory not to him but to he who sent him, he said that he who is sent is not greater than he who sent him. He never tells us to worship him, he always tells us to worship the Father in Christ's name.

I will take the words and example of Christ over the opinions of men, if these writers literally mean worship and not praise and glory. I still feel though that if they knew the savior as well as they did they obviously meant that they praise and give glory to Christ while only worshiping Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me"

I worship Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, as the savior taught me to do. Each has the right to worship how they choose, if you wish to take the words of men out of context of the teachings of Christ then you can.

I will follow the example of Christ first and foremost, and never give worship to anything or anyone except the Father through the Son.

Thank you and God Bless

[LDS Guy 1986]

To me the correct word is interdependent, in other works all working in harmony for the same goals and for the benefit of all.

Interdependent is not exalted, we are independent but since we are all perfect we all agree on what to do. The consensus is there because we are all knowing, if we desired to we perfectly could do whatever we want. But being perfect we finally understand everything and see how stupid we were to not see the right and choose it all along.

There is no dependence in godhood, only perfect knowledge through which we know what is good and what is bad and can see all possible outcomes and move in perfect harmony. We could do the same on Earth for the most part, if we stopped being so carnal and stupid.

[LeSellers]

To me the correct word is interdependent, in other works all working in harmony for the same goals and for the benefit of all.

The correct word is "complementary", as in one completes the other, i.e., neither is whole on its own, but requires the other to be a unit.

BTW, I really do not like the term "opposite sex", we're not opposites, we're complements to each other. (Which is why homosexuality is wrong: homosexuals do not complete each other, nor can they "marry" because marriage is always between people or things/ideas that are different. One may speak of marrying words and music, or of color and sound, but one does not say "it's a marriage of color and pigment.")

Husbands and wives are necessary to each other, and we will, in eternity, complete each other.

Lehi

[Deborah]

But being perfect we finally understand everything and see how stupid we were to not see the right and choose it all along.

Which is why we understand that everything works interdependently to the perfection of all. Lehi uses the word complementary, which I think is also appropriate but that applies more to husbands and wives in my mind.

I think of the Godhead, which is three. The First Presidency is three. The Bishopric, the Stake Presidency, the Relief Society Presidency are all three. Of course there are others who work in the programs, but no program in the church is run by one person. The pattern is that everyone in leadership, no matter how organized or independent they are, have others who can give them support and help them to more fully fulfill their responsibilities. I really don't see that changing just because we are exalted beings, particularly when God himself depends on his Son to bring about the salvation of man.

[zerinus]

First off D&C doesn't say worship Christ it says pray in the name of Christ.

It doesn't actually, it says pray directly to Him. That is an act of worship.

Also like it is in 2 Nephi there is also verses that say worship Christ in the new and old testament. These are men most likely praising Christ, but even if they are worshiping Christ they are not doing so in accordance with the will of Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ.

Well, I would rather take Nephi's words for it than yours.

Christ constantly taught the people to give glory not to him but to he who sent him, he said that he who is sent is not greater than he who sent him. He never tells us to worship him, he always tells us to worship the Father in Christ's name.

He doesn't always say that, as in the case of the example cited.

I will take the words and example of Christ over the opinions of men, if these writers literally mean worship and not praise and glory. I still feel though that if they knew the savior as well as they did they obviously meant that they praise and give glory to Christ while only worshiping Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me"

I worship Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, as the savior taught me to do. Each has the right to worship how they choose, if you wish to take the words of men out of context of the teachings of Christ then you can.

I will follow the example of Christ first and foremost, and never give worship to anything or anyone except the Father through the Son.

See above.

[David Bokovoy]

Your mistake is you put something in your statement that I didn't state or claim. I never said we would no longer worship Heavenly Father ( I refuse to worship Christ, I only worship Heavenly Father as the Scriptures say, anyone who worships more than one God invokes the wrath of Heavenly Father) and give praise and glory to Christ. I said that as a god we are not dependent on anything or anyone just like Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ

I think you should reconsider your position. LDS scripture makes clear that exalted men and women will always belong to God and Christ. Their sanctified children will always worship them. Concerning the Celestial Kingdom, the Prophet Joseph declared:

"And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever" (D&C 76:21)

[Nathair/|\]

First off D&C doesn't say worship Christ it says pray in the name of Christ.

Also like it is in 2 Nephi there is also verses that say worship Christ in the new and old testament. These are men most likely praising Christ, but even if they are worshiping Christ they are not doing so in accordance with the will of Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ.

Christ constantly taught the people to give glory not to him but to he who sent him, he said that he who is sent is not greater than he who sent him. He never tells us to worship him, he always tells us to worship the Father in Christ's name.

I will take the words and example of Christ over the opinions of men, if these writers literally mean worship and not praise and glory. I still feel though that if they knew the savior as well as they did they obviously meant that they praise and give glory to Christ while only worshiping Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me"

I worship Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, as the savior taught me to do. Each has the right to worship how they choose, if you wish to take the words of men out of context of the teachings of Christ then you can.

I will follow the example of Christ first and foremost, and never give worship to anything or anyone except the Father through the Son.

Thank you and God Bless

You do, of course, realize this is YHWH speaking, not El. And he is referring to primacy (ie. I am the most important part of your life.), not about having nothing else of value in your life.

[LDS Guy 1986]

You do, of course, realize this is YHWH speaking, not El. And he is referring to primacy (ie. I am the most important part of your life.), not about having nothing else of value in your life.

You know that when Jehovah speaks, Elohim is speaking since Jehovah and Elohim are united in purpose. The commands of the Son are the commands of the Father since they are one united Godhead!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Wow! This is too easy

It doesn't actually, it says pray directly to Him. That is an act of worship.

Prayer is not worship it is communication, it never was worship, it never will be worship, and you are just 110% wrong to equate prayer with worship. Even lds.org says " We are all children of God. He loves us and knows our needs, and He wants us to communicate with Him through prayer. We should pray to Him and no one else. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded,

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think you should reconsider your position. LDS scripture makes clear that exalted men and women will always belong to God and Christ. Their sanctified children will always worship them. Concerning the Celestial Kingdom, the Prophet Joseph declared:

"And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever" (D&C 76:21)

Ok, it took me about 3 seconds to see that this verse does not say what to try and say it does.

This verse says that the angels (us) and Christ worship God forever and ever.

See this is the importance of punctuation! see those commas that is called punctuation! So I will put your verse in proper context via the miracle of punctuation.

"And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne," This is the who, the angels and them sanctified, so what are they doing? "worshiping God," that;s funny it says they are worshiping God not Christ! "and the Lamb" ok got another person introduced here, what is he doing? " who worship HIM forever and ever"

Now I put a lot of emphasis on him in that last part, the reason for that is if the angels and them that are sanctified are worshiping God and Christ, they would be worshiping THEM not HIM. All this verse is saying is everyone is before the throne worshiping GOD (not God and Jesus Christ) and Christ is there also worshiping God (most likely at the right hand of the father hence why he is mentioned separately instead of with the first group)

Isn't it amazing how easy it is to take something out of context when you ignore the punctuation and simple wording used!

This goes to show that prayerful study and pondering is very important, least you start believing the scriptures are saying something they really are not saying!

"

[David Bokovoy]

Ok, it took me about 3 seconds to see that this verse does not say what to try and say it does.

Well, friend, perhaps that

[LDS Guy 1986]

This really comes as no surprise, however, for the Book of Mormon goes so far as to claim that those who refuse to worship Christ will be damned:

So first you murder any basic college English class then you flat out libel me!

Please quote me saying in any previous post that worshiping Christ will damn you?

Like many I have discussed thing with, as so as your position beings to falter in the light of truth you make flat out lie about what I say.

Worshiping Christ is wrong, at the same time Christ can forgive you of this misguided mistake and will give your worship to the Father. Christ isn't looking to punish but to glorify his Father Elohim our One True God.

Elohim is angered when people worship other gods, but his Son Jesus Christ atoned for our sins. No one is "damned" unless they reject the Holy Ghost.

I love you brother and forgive you of your angry libel against me.

The verse clearly states that God is worshiped (Remember the HIM) it doesn't say worship THEM, it says worship HIM. So either God is being worshiped or Christ the choice is your's I choose the Father not the Son. The English is very clear and commas are far more than a pause, a comma is the difference between:

Helping your uncle Jack off his horse.

AND

Helping your uncle Jack, off his horse.

These are two very different sentences, one is filled with love and service, the other is a crime in some states.

The comma stops the statement and signifies a new statement is starting that is connected to the first.

The comma separates the Lamb from God signifying that only God is worshiped. Once again even if you want to refute this point. How do you refute that that they worship him, not them?

Another example of the importance of a comma is the Second Amendment of the US Constitution:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Many try and use your argument that punctuation is not important to say this is an militia amendment. It is not the founders state that a militia is needed to keep a state free (especially from the tyranny of Government like they just fought off), then that all powerful comma comes in stating that that statement is done and a separate but connected statement is to being. The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, this is the guaranteed right that the many anti-gun advocates argue does not exist because they ignore the proper punctuation.

The punctuation is very important, in fact without commas people would never understand what someone was trying to tell them, this is proven in your misinterpretation of the verse in the D&C.

[LDS Guy 1986]

So if you reject the words of prophets in the scripture that you believe contradict the "words of Christ," I'm really curious, were do you find the words of Christ?

Nice try and you almost got me, I once again must apologizes for oversimplifying, I reject the opinions of prophets if they conflict with the words of Christ.

If you spent as much time microanalzying my point you would of found it's logical and scriptural foundation and accepted it by now.

The words of Christ here are recorded by the Apostle John, he heard these words spoken from the mouth of Christ and later wrote them down. So they are the literal words of Christ unless John is a blasphemer, this is not John's opinion on anything this is the man who walked with Jesus Christ writing down the words that came out of Christ's mouth.

So do try and say it's one prophet against another because it isn't, its the words of Christ recorded by the Apostle John against the opinion of Paul.

As I previously said, I chalk these few verses up to simple misunderstanding between the difference of praise and worship.

I praise Moses, I praise Jesus, I praise Peter, James, John, and the other Apostles, I praise Joseph Smith, I praise Thomas S. Monson, I praise the Holy Ghost, I worship Elohim and no one else.

I worship Elohim, through his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost. (see how clear this statement is with proper punctuation!)

[LDS Guy 1986]

This is just silly. Of course prayer is a form of worship. Compare your statement above with the perspective found in the Book of Mormon:

Prayer is not worship, if this is the case then you have proved the LDS Chruch is false because they say prayer is communication and nothing else. Find the verse that states prayer is worship and you end the LDS Chruch, oh wait there is no verse saying prayer is worship, you made that up! LOL

Your statement is silly do you really think that Catholics worship Mary, and all the other patron saints?

No they ask them (in prayer!) to pray for them to God!

Your position is illogical and silly, the final nail in this coffin is courtesy of dictionary.com:

prayer

¹? ?[prair]

[TAO]

David, you should show him the verse where Christ talks to Father about them worshiping him (and not Father) in 3 Nephi.

Actually... I will post it, if you don't mind... sorryz =P.

3 Nephi 19:15-36

15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.

16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.

17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and ^abowed himself to the earth, and he said:

20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have ^achosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in ^ame; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I ^apray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them ^bas thou, Father, art in me, that we may be ^cone.

24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not ^amultiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should ^bpray, and they were filled with desire.

25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his ^acountenance did smile upon them, and the light of his ^bcountenance did ^cshine upon them, and behold they were as ^dwhite as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.

26 And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.

27 And he turned from them again, and went a little way off and bowed himself to the earth; and he prayed again unto the Father, saying:

28 Father, I thank thee that thou hast ^apurified those whom I have chosen, because of their faith, and I pray for them, and also for them who shall believe on their words, that they may be purified in me, through faith on their words, even as they are purified in me.

29 Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me ^aout of the world, because of their faith, that they may be purified in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one, that I may be glorified in them.

30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were ^awhite, even as Jesus.

31 And it came to pass that he went again a little way off and prayed unto the Father;

32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be ^awritten by man the words which he prayed.

33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their ^ahearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.

34 Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be ^auttered by man.

35 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: ^aSo great ^bfaith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great ^cmiracles, because of their ^dunbelief.

36 Verily I say unto you, there are none of them that have seen so great things as ye have seen; neither have they heard so great things as ye have heard.

Verse 22 is the one that I was referring to. The Lord, I think, is not holding them guilty, for he is with them.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Hence, I

[LDS Guy 1986]

David, you should show him the verse where Christ talks to Father about them worshiping him (and not Father) in 3 Nephi.

Actually... I will post it, if you don't mind... sorryz =P.

Verse 22 is the one that I was referring to. The Lord, I think, is not holding them guilty, for he is with them.

Verse 22 says they believe in Christ (remember that verse 21 says "Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words." under your logic we are suppost to worship the Nephite 12 Apostles as well!), and remember that Christ taught in John 10 to believe in he who sent me.

Of course the people there will believe in Christ and if they believe in Christ they will obey his commandment and not believe in him but believe in he who sent him.