Heavenly Mother, doctrine or not?

[Jason]

Jason:

That is still just a logical inference. We have no doctrine on a heavenly mother. No one is going to be called into the Bishops office because of it.

Some people have been excommunicated for insisting that we should pray to heavenly mother.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

That they have. But I have yet to see anyone ex'd for merely believing she exists, or not knowing much about her.

[Jason]

Jason:

That they have. But I have yet to see anyone ex'd for merely believing she exists, or not knowing much about her.

Of course, but it seems the plain and consistant teaching of the Church is that she does exist. Her existence can be inferred from the scriptures with little difficulty. Therefore it is doctrinal. Not an important doctrine that will put anyone in jeopardy if they don't believe it, but doctrinal none the less.

[cion]

Some people have been excommunicated for insisting that we should pray to heavenly mother.

Insisting? I thought it was more of "suggesting that we can".

[Mark Beesley]

Oh brother. There is no limit to what we have to learn about the nature of God. It would be very sad to think we know it all. There are many things we can learn from other cultures and peoples.

Oh brother is right. Did I say we know everything there is to know about the nature of God? No. Did I say we know it all? No. Did I say there was nothing we can learn from othe cultures and peoples? No.

I was speaking specifically--and I said so--about the nature of God and the correct form of worship. And I stand by my statement: We have nothing to learn about the nature of God and the correct form of worship from any source outside the Restored Gospel. If we are to learn more that is true about these particular topics, it will be from God directly, not from Hindu traditions and practices. And please keep in mind that this is being said within the context of your assertion that we should be engaged in talking more, and discussing more, a topic on which Heavenly Father has chosen to remain silent.

Please do not spin and twist what I said. This is the second time you have done so in this thread.

[todd520]

And clearly the existence of a heavenly mother falls under the references to gods creating mankind, male and female, in their image. Yet there are still people on this thread denying that its doctrinal.

NO no, that is just your assumption and you are allowed to make it since we have no revelation in this area.

The bible and LDS scripture always refers to God in the singular when discussing our creator.

Until you can show me the doctrine on Heavenly Mother, I don't see her ad doctrinal,

And Again a few tangential references to Holy Parents does not revealed scripture make.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

I don't believe she is doctrinal. I've seen nothing that says she is. I have no trouble with her existence, or for that matter being just like my mom. But that doesn't make her doctrinal.

Anywho. I got to go get some work done sometime today.

[Mark Beesley]

Jason:

I don't believe she is doctrinal. I've seen nothing that says she is. I have no trouble with her existence, or for that matter being just like my mom. But that doesn't make her doctrinal.

Anywho. I got to go get some work done sometime today.

McConkie says Heavenly Mother is a matter of doctrine, but he is not, of course, the final authority.

Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an

Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of

an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a

Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a

Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother

whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state.

This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in

plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R.

Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of

man, they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly

parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father," that man

is the "offspring of celestial parentage," and that "all men and women are in

the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and

daughters of Deity." (Man: Origin and Destiny, pp. 348-355.)

This glorious truth of celestial parentage, including specifically

both a Father and a Mother, is heralded forth by song in one of the greatest of

Latter-day Saint hymns. O My Father by Eliza R. Snow, written in 1843, during

the lifetime of the Prophet, includes this teaching:

In the heavens are parents single? No; the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason, truth eternal, Tells me I've a Mother there.

When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father,

Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do, With

your mutual approbation, Let me come and dwell with you.

Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation

will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming

Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers. (D.

& C. 132:19-32.) Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued

by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve, states: "So far as the

stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine

revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can

become parents of spirit offspring." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p.

129.)

Mormon Doctrine

What is and is not doctrine is a slippery topic. I understand fully your statement that it is not doctrine; however, I would be hesitant to make the same statement on this particular matter.

[cion]

Oh brother is right. Did I say we know everything there is to know about the nature of God? No. Did I say we know it all? No. Did I say there was nothing we can learn from othe cultures and peoples? No.

I was speaking specifically--and I said so--about the nature of God and the correct form of worship. And I stand by my statement: We have nothing to learn about the nature of God and the correct form of worship from any source outside the Restored Gospel. If we are to learn more that is true about these particular topics, it will be from God directly, not from Hindu traditions and practices. And please keep in mind that this is being said within the context of your assertion that we should be engaged in talking more, and discussing more, a topic on which Heavenly Father has chosen to remain silent.

Please do not spin and twist what I said. This is the second time you have done so in this thread.

I get what you mean but I happen to have a different interpretation of "Restored Gospel" than you do. To me, the "Restored Gospel" means truth from God, which can land in the heart of any person living on this earth no matter what religion or race or culture. There is much, much more we can learn about God that is outside of **your** shallow interpretation of "Restored Gospel".

[Mark Beesley]

I get what you mean but I happen to have a different interpretation of "Restored Gospel" than you do. To me, the "Restored Gospel" means truth from God, which can land in the heart of any person living on this earth no matter what religion or race or culture. There is much, much more we can learn about God that is outside of **your** shallow interpretation of "Restored Gospel".

If you are LDS, then you might want to review the 14 fundaments for following the prophet, originally presented by Ezra Taft Benson when he was an apostle, and more recently restated in General Conference.

If you are not LDS, then I guess you can adopt whatever strikes your fancy as being enlightened.

[cion]

If you are not LDS, then I guess you can adopt whatever strikes your fancy as being enlightened.

It's more than striking fancies. It is about expanding the boundaries, looking for enlightenment. We are asked to know God. How can we do that without poking around a bit on our own? God does not live in a box.

[todd520]

Of course, but it seems the plain and consistant teaching of the Church is that she does exist. Her existence can be inferred from the scriptures with little difficulty. Therefore it is doctrinal. Not an important doctrine that will put anyone in jeopardy if they don't believe it, but doctrinal none the less.

No, she is not a plain and consistent teaching

- rarely mentioned as Heavenly Mother, and not in the Quad at all.

- usual inferred from Heavenly Parents (also rarely used)

- All creation references refer to God (singualr) 99.99% of times

There are many things that can be inferred from scriptures.

This is the favorite tactic of anti-mormons who take quotes out of context and inferr meanings that are not doctrine.

Heavenly Mother is a shared beleif but it is not doctrinal

[Obiwan]

No, she is not a plain and consistent teaching

- rarely mentioned as Heavenly Mother, and not in the Quad at all.

- usual inferred from Heavenly Parents (also rarely used)

- All creation references refer to God (singualr) 99.99% of times

There are many things that can be inferred from scriptures.

This is the favorite tactic of anti-mormons who take quotes out of context and inferr meanings that are not doctrine.

Heavenly Mother is a shared beleif but it is not doctrinal

Uh... Sorry to disagree with you, but your not accurate in that last statement.

Having a Heavenly Mother IS in fact Doctrine of the Church. It has been Officially pronounced so and if I remember right even voted on by the body of the Church to be Doctrine. It is the only Doctine of the Church that isn't directly spelled out by scripture, but certainly directly inferred by scripture. Clear inference can infact make something doctrine. More importantly however, it has been pronounced such.

Now, some other things can be considered a "shared belief" and not necessarily doctrine, but this isn't one of them I'm sorry to tell you.

[why me]

Heavenly Mother is a shared beleif but it is not doctrinal

I don't know how many old timers we have on this forum but I can tell you that back in the 1970's all believed that there was a heavenly mother. We were told that we don't mention her much out of respect for her importance. Thus, we have heavenly parents watching over us.

[why me]

Todd!

Please read this:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Heavenly_Mother

The youngin's on this forum were not around during the good ol' days. Yes, we have a heavenly mother.

And we have this from the link I posted:

As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed:

Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.

[Lareliw]

I guess it is hard for me to comprehend if God the Father is our Heavenly Father and the beginning of all, the One God of the 10 Commandments, I do not understand how a "Heavenly Mother" would fit into that. Father and Mother in that context, or Parents presupposes equal, though different, roles. But I have always understood God, Heavenly Father, to be the Great Creator, There is nothing equal or higher than Him. I guess my question isn't really a question, but more asking for more information or clarification on the subject

[TAO]

I guess it is hard for me to comprehend if God the Father is our Heavenly Father and the beginning of all, the One God of the 10 Commandments, I do not understand how a "Heavenly Mother" would fit into that. Father and Mother in that context, or Parents presupposes equal, though different, roles. But I have always understood God, Heavenly Father, to be the Great Creator, There is nothing equal or higher than Him. I guess my question isn't really a question, but more asking for more information or clarification on the subject

One of the things, that is fringe LDS theology (not doctrine, but not speculation either), is that God the Father, may not always have been that way... but that we can become like him.

When we enter into the temple and get sealed to a celestial spouse, we are striving to become like him.

If he, right now, is like how we are to become in the future, it makes sense that he too, has a spouse, as glorious as he is, that it does.

Again, fringe theology, but also very logical, and with good support.

As to Heavenly Mother... many times Heavenly Parents are mentioned by the GAs... and so that is why I consider it doctrine. Her role is different than HFs though... and I don't think it's been revealed to us for good reasons... I'll trust that God has good reasons for keeping her somewhat a secret =).

[Lareliw]

But if you look at Genesis 1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. So before there was anything, there was God. I believe that through the Bible, God has shown us that He is omnicient, omnipresent, all-powerful. And I agree that when we are resurrected that we will become like Him, but to be "like" something does not necessarily mean to "be" the same as something. I wish our poor little human minds could comprehend more of these Heavenly scriptures and truths, it would make the whole thing a lot less confusing

One of the things, that is fringe LDS theology (not doctrine, but not speculation either), is that God the Father, may not always have been that way... but that we can become like him.

When we enter into the temple and get sealed to a celestial spouse, we are striving to become like him.

If he, right now, is like how we are to become in the future, it makes sense that he too, has a spouse, as glorious as he is, that it does.

Again, fringe theology, but also very logical, and with good support.

As to Heavenly Mother... many times Heavenly Parents are mentioned by the GAs... and so that is why I consider it doctrine. Her role is different than HFs though... and I don't think it's been revealed to us for good reasons... I'll trust that God has good reasons for keeping her somewhat a secret =).

[TAO]

But if you look at Genesis 1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. So before there was anything, there was God.

We LDS use an inspired version of the book of Genesis, contained in the Books of Moses and Abraham... they use the word 'organize'... why 'organize'? Because there was matter there before... we don't believe in creation ex nihlo, if you understand what I mean. Created, we believe, means to organize from existing matter.

I believe that through the Bible, God has shown us that He is omnicient, omnipresent, all-powerful. And I agree that when we are resurrected that we will become like Him, but to be "like" something does not necessarily mean to "be" the same as something. I wish our poor little human minds could comprehend more of these Heavenly scriptures and truths, it would make the whole thing a lot less confusing

I understand how you feel... being like God can be rather intimidating as well. For us LDS, it means accepting all God will offer us. We believe it includes many things he is able to do... perhaps even including the creation of worlds.

I do wish to leave this scripture with you though... as it will show you why we view things the way we do...

John 10:33-36

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for ^ablasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself ^bGod.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are ^agods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath ^asanctified, and ^bsent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the ^cSon of God?

[Lareliw]

If there was matter there before, when did that matter come from? It is confusing as far as stepping away from creation from nothing (or ex nihlo ) if God, our Heavenly Father, has not always existed, then where did He come from and who created Him? And if some type of being, matter, etc created Him, then can He truly be God, insofar as being the Most High, Most Exalted? Wouldn't whatever created Him actually be "above" Him so to speak? I hope I am not coming off rude or antagonistic as that is not my intention at all! I have been seeking my path to God and Christ, and it has been a difficult journey trying to discover where I belong!

We LDS use an inspired version of the book of Genesis, contained in the Books of Moses and Abraham... they use the word 'organize'... why 'organize'? Because there was matter there before... we don't believe in creation ex nihlo, if you understand what I mean. Created, we believe, means to organize from existing matter.

I understand how you feel... being like God can be rather intimidating as well. For us LDS, it means accepting all God will offer us. We believe it includes many things he is able to do... perhaps even including the creation of worlds.

I do wish to leave this scripture with you though... as it will show you why we view things the way we do...

[TAO]

If there was matter there before, when did that matter come from? It is confusing as far as stepping away from creation from nothing (or ex nihlo ) if God, our Heavenly Father, has not always existed, then where did He come from and who created Him? And if some type of being, matter, etc created Him, then can He truly be God, insofar as being the Most High, Most Exalted? Wouldn't whatever created Him actually be "above" Him so to speak? I hope I am not coming off rude or antagonistic as that is not my intention at all! I have been seeking my path to God and Christ, and it has been a difficult journey trying to discover where I belong!

Good, you are understanding where we are coming from. Again, the fringe theology is that... he became how he is in the way we are becoming how we are. In other words... he has a God of his own, just as he is our God.

However, we are still asked only to worship him - and so we do such. Yes, it may mean there is someone above him. But as Brigham Young put it 'he is the only God of which we have to do with'. Other exalted beings don't matter for us... and they don't make him any less God... nor less powerful, nor less glorious, nor less all-seeing. He is our Father in Heaven, and we will love him all the same =D.

Nah, your not rude at all, these are the sorta things we'd want to explain to you rather than have them come from someone else =)... although you should know that the way I put it might sound a bit wierd... it might be good to talk about it with another poster as well... nicolasconnault would be a good person to talk to... actually you could talk to virtually anybody here about it... it's just sometimes my interpretations are a bit obscure in relation to mainstream LDS theology.

[Lareliw]

So far I think you have been wonderfully helpful and kind I am still a bit confused, because if there is someone who created God and he has moved into this perfect being, then who created his creator? It is one of those never-ending backward cycles that boggles my poor little mind! And I think there are some verses in the Bible regarding God and His being eternal, not created but it is getting late and I can't find them just now, I will have to look tomorrow! I also saw a comment somewhere about people before Adam and Eve. What people before Adam and Eve? If I don't get back on tonight, God bless and have a wonderful evening

Good, you are understanding where we are coming from. Again, the fringe theology is that... he became how he is in the way we are becoming how we are. In other words... he has a God of his own, just as he is our God.

However, we are still asked only to worship him - and so we do such. Yes, it may mean there is someone above him. But as Brigham Young put it 'he is the only God of which we have to do with'. Other exalted beings don't matter for us... and they don't make him any less God... nor less powerful, nor less glorious, nor less all-seeing. He is our Father in Heaven, and we will love him all the same =D.

Nah, your not rude at all, these are the sorta things we'd want to explain to you rather than have them come from someone else =)... although you should know that the way I put it might sound a bit wierd... it might be good to talk about it with another poster as well... nicolasconnault would be a good person to talk to... actually you could talk to virtually anybody here about it... it's just sometimes my interpretations are a bit obscure in relation to mainstream LDS theology.

[TAO]

So far I think you have been wonderfully helpful and kind

Thanks. =D

I am still a bit confused, because if there is someone who created God and he has moved into this perfect being, then who created his creator? It is one of those never-ending backward cycles that boggles my poor little mind!

Bad News. I'm gonna have to boggle your mind =P. You guessed correctly.

And I think there are some verses in the Bible regarding God and His being eternal, not created but it is getting late and I can't find them just now, I will have to look tomorrow!

Yes, I know they are there... but we LDS believe eternal is a name for God... thus eternal doesn't mean without end all of the time. Confusing I know =P. But I will be glad to talk about it with you if you would like... although I'll be at school most of the day. But once I get back home, I'll be glad to help =).

I also saw a comment somewhere about people before Adam and Eve. What people before Adam and Eve? If I don't get back on tonight, God bless and have a wonderful evening

I don't know if there was or wasn't. Different people have different opinions on the issue... but I don't worry about it too much myself. I figure, the way God does it is good enough for me... but if you create a new thread, I'm sure there will be people who will tell you why they believe a certain way... I'm sorta of no opinion =P. Bleh... I wish I could be of more help. But I'm glad you are asking such great questions =).

God bless you as well =D.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Jason]

We are all eternal beings. We all existed in one form or another back into the infinite past and will always exist into the future.