Heavenly Mother, doctrine or not?

[cion]

This is why we do not have revelation -- scriptures -- that refer explicity to Mother in Heaven. This discussion went rather quickly from a reverential discussion of the topic to a flippant, irreverent reference to Mom, as though we could/should consider such a being in such terms, Father in Heaven has witnessed all to clearly how HIs name and the name of His Son have been profaned, blsashpemed, and degraded. His love for His eternal companion is so deep that He is unwilling to subject Her name to similar disregard.

The fact that you consider a discussion of Heavenly Mother as flippant, irreverent, and subject to disregard is IMO, very disrespectful to such a being. Is that how you would treat your own mother? Avoid talking about her and avoid talking to her? "Mother" is the essence of creation, nurturing, and care. She should be talked about and discussed much more than she is. Our society is at a great loss not having her involved in our lives more than she is.

[SkepticTheist]

This is why we do not have revelation -- scriptures -- that refer explicity to Mother in Heaven. This discussion went rather quickly from a reverential discussion of the topic to a flippant, irreverent reference to Mom, as though we could/should consider such a being in such terms, Father in Heaven has witnessed all to clearly how HIs name and the name of His Son have been profaned, blsashpemed, and degraded. His love for His eternal companion is so deep that He is unwilling to subject Her name to similar disregard.

Philosophically I agree with you, but I say you are speculating, because what you are repeating here is a folk doctrine that is an explanation on why something is so for lack of evidence. This theory is no different than the idea that blacks were fence sitters because we didn't know why there was a priesthood ban. You are filling in doctrinal holes with a philosophy. that doesn't mean I believe you are wrong.

Ed Goble

[Jason]

I can't say that the non-ordination of women is doctrinal. But outside of the Temple ordaining women to any Priesthood Office will get you into hot water REAL fast.

Really? So in your view is the Church justified in taking this non-doctrinal position?

I'm sure I could think of other topics that aren't explicitely covered in the scriptures but which are doctrines of the Church. This just seemed like the most obvious one.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

Yes. AFAIK it is a policy. Which can and does change as the needs of the Church and its members change. To go against policy can and does subject one to Church discipline, but policy and doctrine are not the same thing.

[LDSGuy]

Hi Lehi:

While Hymns may contain doctrine. I don't see them as a source of doctrine. So I can, and do agree with the overall sentiments of the Hymn without it being doctrine.

Hymns don't just contain doctrine, they are based on it.

[SkepticTheist]

Jason:

Yes. AFAIK it is a policy. Which can and does change as the needs of the Church and its members change. To go against policy can and does subject one to Church discipline, but policy and doctrine are not the same thing.

I question whether the fact that women can perform a certain ordinance means that she has "priesthood." Even in the day when women were able to give blessings, they never did it by virtue of the priesthood, at least the way I understand it. I work in the temple. I have no extra keys or extra authority aside from a regular priesthood holder to officiate at the veil. I have only been *set apart* to do so, as a *calling.* Similarly, women in the temple only have been set apart to do ordinances, thereby having authorization to do so, not *authority*, and hold no priesthood. In other words, someone with keys authorized them to do something. The priesthood keys to do the ordinance lies in the person that gave the authorization, not necessarily in the person that performs it. Being authorized does not equate to having priesthood.

In fact, probably the biggest proof for women not holding the priesthood is the fact that the Father is the one that presides over the human race in the celestial kingdom, and that we do not pray to the Mother.

[thesometimesaint]

LDSGuy:

The Battle Hymn of the Republic is based on doctrine?

There is a Land Whose Sunny Vales is based in doctrine?

Each cooing Dove is based on doctrine?

There are a host of examples of Hymns found in old and currant LDS Hymnals that while nice and even inspiring to some are not based on doctrine.

[thesometimesaint]

SkepticTheist:

I don't see much functional difference between being set apart and having the authority. As a High Priest I have all the authority I need to preside in Church meetings, but only occasionally have been set apart to functionally do so.

[SkepticTheist]

SkepticTheist:

I don't see much functional difference between being set apart and having the authority. As a High Priest I have all the authority I need to preside in Church meetings, but only occasionally have been set apart to functionally do so.

There are a great many things in this church that constitute "authorization" to do something that don't have a whole lot of functional difference where the rubber meets the road. But this isn't about functionality. This is entirely about the definitions of the nuances about each type of authorization. Priesthood and keys are two types of nuanced things that are specific types of authority or authorization. Being set apart is another. Getting clearance to proceed with a sealing after one has been divorced is yet another. Having permission from the bishop to baptize one's child is yet another. Deacons authorized to collect fast offerings is yet another. There are a great many nuances about how things function and how people have permission to accomplish them. But not all of them can be called "priesthood." That is a very specific type of authority that is precisely defined. And women do not hold that. I'm not saying that they can never hold it. I don't know if they will in the future or will not. That is not my problem. That is the prophet's problem and God's problem to figure out. All I'm saying is, they currently do not hold it, and the authorizations that they do have to act on things that they currently act in are not to be equated with priesthood.

Ed Goble

[thesometimesaint]

SkepticTheist:

While I don't have a problem with women holding the Priesthood(with both arms arms around his neck. ). I don't know exactly how that would function. I think we have a small example in the Temple. One small example however doesn't allow much to go on.

Right now I have my hands full with the Priesthood being a call to serve. I'll let others worry about authority and how it functions. If women someday get the Priesthood. It is fine by me, if not I've still got plenty to do.

[Mark Beesley]

The fact that you consider a discussion of Heavenly Mother as flippant, irreverent, and subject to disregard is IMO, very disrespectful to such a being. Is that how you would treat your own mother? Avoid talking about her and avoid talking to her?"

You might want to read what I wrote a bit more carefully, and try avoid reading into what I wrote anything I did not say.

Mother" is the essence of creation, nurturing, and care. She should be talked about and discussed much more than she is. Our society is at a great loss not

having her involved in our lives more than she is.

Heavenly Father would seem to disagree.

[frankenstein]

Heavenly Father would seem to disagree.

there is no reason Officially why more is not know. The prophets have mention "mother in heaven" those statements have been published in the Ensign as to why we do not know more or even a few specifics is pure speculation.

[cion]

Heavenly Father would seem to disagree.

Wrong. Heavenly Father agrees with me.

[Mark Beesley]

there is no reason Officially why more is not know. The prophets have mention "mother in heaven" those statements have been published in the Ensign as to why we do not know more or even a few specifics is pure speculation.

The reason we do not know more is because Heavenly Father has not revealed more. Nothing speculative about that. WHY Heavenly Father elects not to reveal more . . . now that is the subject of speculation, and I freely concede that my initial post in this thread was speculative; nevertheless, cion's assertion that Heavenly Father thinks we should talk more about a subject He has elected to remain quiet on mystifies me.

[TAO]

MB is right, that he is, or at least for me.

God does not wish me to talk much about her... I feel such for myself.

[cion]

I wonder if anyone has ever been given the impression that Heavenly Mother doesn't want us to talk much about Heavenly Father...

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDSGuy:

The Battle Hymn of the Republic is based on doctrine?

There is a Land Whose Sunny Vales is based in doctrine?

Each cooing Dove is based on doctrine?

There are a host of examples of Hymns found in old and currant LDS Hymnals that while nice and even inspiring to some are not based on doctrine.

I never spoke of any hymns just the Proclamation, Genesis, and the Gospel Principals manual.

I think you got me confused with someone else! LOL

[LDS Guy 1986]

Wrong. Heavenly Father agrees with me.

I thought this was suppose to be a discussion?

Why does Heavenly Father agree with you?

[todd520]

After seeing the votes and reading the thread, we clearly don't have a concesus. Thus

• Heavenly Mother is an inferred teaching in the Church, mentioned repeatedly in manuals and articles, but never discussed or expanded upon
• Belief in Heavenly Mother is not explicit doctrine, since it has not yet been shown as revealed truth (in cannonized scripture)

[DH]

I have an altar to Her set up in my home. It pleases Her when I do chores around the home, take care of children, and act friendly to my mother-in-law. She also demands seasonal sacrifices of flowers and chocolate. God the Mother smiles upon me!

[Jason]

Jason:

Yes. AFAIK it is a policy. Which can and does change as the needs of the Church and its members change. To go against policy can and does subject one to Church discipline, but policy and doctrine are not the same thing.

What about avoiding perscription drug abuse? Is that doctrine or a mere policy? It's certain that there are no canonized revelations saying you shouldn't abuse them.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm a new convert and am confused on this topic.

My understanding is this belief is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

It is doctrine...though no "recorded" revelation, in the way we are taught revelation comes.

[todd520]

What about avoiding perscription drug abuse? Is that doctrine or a mere policy? It's certain that there are no canonized revelations saying you shouldn't abuse them.

Clearly this falls under the Words of Wisdom

[Zakuska]

I'm a new convert and am confused on this topic.

My understanding is this belief is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

As you can see... Jeremiah mentions her...

Jeremiah 44:18

But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

I'd say that counts for something.(Revelation perhaps?) However... Don't worship her though. That gets you in trouble.

[cion]

Jeremiah 44:18

But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

I'm sure the male God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. In fact, he might even appreciate it.