Heavenly Mother, doctrine or not?

[Damien the Leper]

The Divine Goddess is hardly uniquely LDS. Pre-Hebrew Bible Jews sought communion with the Mother until such practices were deemed heretical by the male authoritarian Rabbis.

Proverbs Ch. 8 is often used as a reference point for Lady Wisdom (aka Hokhma or Shekinah) to some unorthodox Jews and Hebrew scholars such as Raphael Patai and Rabbi Elysse Goldstein.

It is far from a revelation but a reiteration of an ancient theology and practice.

[Mark Beesley]

As you can see... Jeremiah mentions her...

Jeremiah 44:18

But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

I'd say that counts for something.(Revelation perhaps?) However... Don't worship her though. That gets you in trouble.

That wasn't Jeremiah speaking. That was Jeremiah's report of what the idol worshippers told him as they were telling him they were not going to listen to the prophet. I doubt Jeremiah considered Asherah to be Mother in Heaven.

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

We are instructed not to worship or pray to our mother in heaven.

Personally I like the idea of when I die sitting on her lap and her lovingly telling me all about herself, and what I was like before I came to earth. Like when I was a little child and my earthly mom doing the same.

[cion]

cion:

We are instructed not to worship or pray to our mother in heaven.

Personally I like the idea of when I die sitting on her lap and her lovingly telling me all about herself, and what I was like before I came to earth. Like when I was a little child and my earthly mom doing the same.

I didn't say pray to. I said, "reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard". By toying with the idea you just mentioned (sitting on her lap etc), you are also reflecting with adoring reverence and regard, which is a form of worship. Please don't be alarmed. You will be just fine. Nobody will punish you for that.

Just because you are instructed to do something does not mean it is the correct thing to do for you. Just keeping it real.

For example, there are women out there who have trouble connecting with strong males because of their past. God in his mercy would have compassion on this woman and present her with an idea that is more fitting for her. I see no problem with this, do you?

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

As I have said before I have no problem with a mother in heaven. I don't even have a problem with the Church teaching of her existence. I would just like some more information/Scripture before she become a doctrine.

As Jesus the Christ is one who told us to pray only to The Father. I think I follow his rules.

[cion]

As Jesus the Christ is one who told us to pray only to The Father. I think I follow his rules.

Jesus never told us "Don't pray to Heavenly Mother."

[Mark Beesley]

I'm sure the male God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. In fact, he might even appreciate it.

Here is what Jeremiah had to say to the idol worshippers who burned incense to the queen of heaven:

20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,

21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind?

22 So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the Lord, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.

24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the Lord, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:

25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

26 Therefore hear ye the word of the Lord, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the Lord, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord God liveth.

27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.

29 And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the Lord, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

30 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will give Pharaoh-hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedkiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life.

[LeSellers]

I'm sure the male God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. In fact, he might even appreciate it.

I deeply doubt He would.

Back in the pre-Abrahamic day, the Canaanites (Hittites, Sodomites, Gomorrites, and so on) knew of our Mother in Heaven, and they perverted Her and Their relationship into "scared sex", complete with prostitutes in their Temples. We even read of Judah's being involved with this, as Tamar used this perversion to become pregnant with Pharez and Zarah (to fulfill the law of the Levirate marriage).

It was for this reason that He has hidden our Mother from us: so we will not desecrate Her as our fathers did in the past.

Lehi

[cion]

Here is what Jeremiah had to say to the idol worshippers who burned incense to the queen of heaven:

I understand that some men (authors of the Old Testament) may have considered the Queen of Heaven to be a mere idol.

Some people might enjoy the thought of elevating the Queen of Heaven to a status above a dirty idol.

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...

[cion]

I deeply doubt He would.

Back in the pre-Abrahamic day, the Canaanites (Hittites, Sodomites, Gomorrites, and so on) knew of our Mother in Heaven, and they perverted Her and Their relationship into "scared sex", complete with prostitutes in their Temples. We even read of Judah's being involved with this, as Tamar used this perversion to become pregnant with Pharez and Zarah (to fulfill the law of the Levirate marriage).

It was for this reason that He has hidden our Mother from us: so we will not desecrate Her as our fathers did in the past.

Lehi

I'm so sorry you equate "pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard" with sexual perversions and prostitution.

[cion]

cion:

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...

Jesus said pray to Father. Fine.

He never said, "Do not pray to Mother in Heaven.

[LeSellers]

I'm so sorry you equate "pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard" with sexual perversions and prostitution.

Sorry you did not understand what I actually said.

Lehi

[frankenstein]

It was for this reason that He has hidden our Mother from us: so we will not desecrate Her as our fathers did in the past.

Lehi

is there any writing or spoken record that what you state is "why" (so we will not desecrate Her as our fathers did in the past.)

It makes for feel good story but as far as I can surmise there is no Official statement as to why we do not know more.

(I appreciate the history/background you provided)

[cion]

Sorry you did not understand what I actually said.

Lehi

I said, "I'm sure the male God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. In fact, he might even appreciate it."

You said, "I doubt that." Then you continued on with reasons to support your premise.

Please explain why you doubt God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. Please tell me why you doubt he might even appreciate it.

[Mark Beesley]

cion,

I have gone back and read each of your posts in this thread to try and get a feel for where you are coming from, and now I am rather confused. You defended an earlier post by saying that you had never said we should pray to Mother in Heaven, yet you seem to believe it would be alright to do so since Jesus never said not to. And while you would seemingly disdain idol worship, you pointed to Hindu idol worship as a source to which we might go to garner some insight into worship of a feminine deity.

I am left wondering whether you are here for serious discussion, or just want to stir the pot.

All the best,

Mark

[LeSellers]

I said, "I'm sure the male God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. In fact, he might even appreciate it."

You said, "I doubt that." Then you continued on with reasons to support your premise.

Yes, I supported my premise. The support, while you read it, seems to have slipped in one eye and out the other.

Please explain why you doubt God would be okay with a human pausing and reflecting on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard. Please tell me why you doubt he might even appreciate it.

Because, as I said, he tried that, or at least, there was a time when people (Shemites) knew of Her. I'm certain that, in the beginning, people did, as you say, "paus[ed] and reflect[ed] on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard". However, that did not last. It (fairly rapidly) devolved into ritualistic sex. It became, over time, debauchery and wholesale denigration of His Eternal Sweetheart. Having seen the result, it seems ludicrous that He'd tempt us again with that knowledge.

Even without Her being constantly before our eyes, we see a culture (which always makes me think of Petri dishes) where sex is relegated to recreation and entertainment rather than procreation and adoration. There's no need to add fuel to the fire.

Lehi

[cion]

cion,

I have gone back and read each of your posts in this thread to try and get a feel for where you are coming from, and now I am rather confused. You defended an earlier post by saying that you had never said we should pray to Mother in Heaven, yet you seem to believe it would be alright to do so since Jesus never said not to. And while you would seemingly disdain idol worship, you pointed to Hindu idol worship as a source to which we might go to garner some insight into worship of a feminine deity.

I am left wondering whether you are here for serious discussion, or just want to stir the pot.

All the best,

Mark

I know the teaching is that we never pray to Mother in Heaven. I do not personally believe there is a problem with doing so, however. I'm sorry for not being clear on my personal stand on this issue.

I don't look at the Hindu traditions and religious practices as idol worship. I look at their worship of female Gods as similar to LDS worship of Christ.

I think the Hindu people are very well versed in worshiping female deity in a meaningful way. I still believe LDS leadership could learn volumes from these people. The things they learn could be called "revelation".

Not trying to stir the pot. Just expressing my views on the Divine. I believe LDS views have a lot to offer but we should not be afraid of ideas that might enhance the theology.

[cion]

Yes, I supported my premise. The support, while you read it, seems to have slipped in one eye and out the other.

Because, as i said, he tried that (or at least, there was a time when people (Shemites) knew of Her. I'm certain that, in the beginning, people did, as you say, "paus[ed] and reflect[ed] on the queen of heaven with adoring reverence and regard". However, that did not last. It (fairly rapidly) devolved into ritualistic sex. It became, over time, debauchery and wholesale denigration of His Eternal Sweetheart. Having seen the result, it seems ludicrous that He'd tempt us again with that knowledge.

Even without Her being constantly before our eyes, we see a culture (which always makes me think of Petri dishes) where sex is relegated to recreation and entertainment rather than procreation and adoration. There's no need to add fuel to the fire.

Lehi

Lehi,

Thank you for clarifying. I like where this is going. It gives me hope that people were at one time able to worship Heavenly Mother (reflect with adoring reverence and regard).

I see what you mean about the sexual debauchery. That does create a problem in some people that think they can exert power over other people to get what they want. However, I see nothing wrong with celebrating sex and I doubt Heavenly Father does either. Keep in mind, I still believe respect is key. Why do we think that integrating and celebrating female along with male somehow must always lead to disrespect? It surely does not have to.

[Mark Beesley]

I know the teaching is that we never pray to Mother in Heaven. I do not personally believe there is a problem with doing so, however. I'm sorry for not being clear on my personal stand on this issue.

I don't look at the Hindu traditions and religious practices as idol worship. I look at their worship of female Gods as similar to LDS worship of Christ.

I think the Hindu people are very well versed in worshiping female deity in a meaningful way. I still believe LDS leadership could learn volumes from these people. The things they learn could be called "revelation".

Not trying to stir the pot. Just expressing my views on the Divine. I believe LDS views have a lot to offer but we should not be afraid of ideas that might enhance the theology.

If you are LDS, I am speechless. You should probably spend more time immersed in the Book of Mormon.

If you are not LDS, then you may not understand revelation as we do.

Take care.

[cion]

If you are LDS, I am speechless.

Why?

[Mark Beesley]

Why?

What part of "speechless" did you not understand?

But I'll try . . . We have nothing to learn about the nature of God and the correct form of worship from any source outside the Restored Gospel. If you are looking elsewhere, you risk being deceived by Satan and may find yourself in apostasy very quickly.

[Jason]

Clearly this falls under the Words of Wisdom

And clearly the existence of a heavenly mother falls under the references to gods creating mankind, male and female, in their image. Yet there are still people on this thread denying that its doctrinal.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

That is still just a logical inference. We have no doctrine on a heavenly mother. No one is going to be called into the Bishops office because of it.

[cion]

But I'll try . . . We have nothing to learn about the nature of God and the correct form of worship from any source outside the Restored Gospel. If you are looking elsewhere, you risk being deceived by Satan and may find yourself in apostasy very quickly.

Oh brother. There is no limit to what we have to learn about the nature of God. It would be very sad to think we know it all. There are many things we can learn from other cultures and peoples.