Phoenix Temple Protests

[ttribe]

Anyway back to the debate, this is about these closet-anti-mormon protesters and what should we do about them.

Well, they've pretty much overplayed their hand, IMO. First, they tried to get a petition going regarding the zoning exceptions that were granted to the Church AFTER the Church had already agreed to make some changes in response to their requests. When they took that step, the Church cut the argument off at its knees by changing the plans to comply with pre-existing zoning, meaning there's NOTHING the residents can do legally at this point. It's now clear that what they really wanted is for the Temple to not be there at all, not that they wanted some changes made to the design to make it more to their liking. I've tried at least three times to get their "leader" to tell me what concessions his group has offered to Church leadership in this matter and been ignored each time. Their motive, IMO, is now laid bare.

[ttribe]

Now it's the parking: http://www.azcentral.com/community/northvalley/articles/2011/02/10/20110210phoenix-temple-neighbors-complain-lacks-parking.html

[LDS Guy 1986]

Since one can find scriptures that talk about how God chastises his chosen people when they are not obedient through the acts of wicked people, one could make the assumption that LDS were and are being chastised for our wickedness or slothfulness as God's servants just as you have made the claim for the Jews.

For example, D&C 68: 31Now, I, the Lord, am not well ^apleased with the inhabitants of Zion, for there are ^bidlers among them; and their ^cchildren are also growing up in ^dwickedness; they also ^eseek not earnestly the riches of eternity, but their eyes are full of ^fgreediness.

Makes sense. Thus God is punishing the LDS when they are 'persecuted' since that is how God does things.

I agree Zion was lost due to the wickedness of the saints, we are told this in the D&C. I do not agree that God persecutes anyone, he simply removes his divine protection and allows the natural course of men to run it's course.

God didn't punish (I know I said punished earlier and I admit that it isn't the best wording I apologize) the Jews, he stopped protecting them from those who sought to harm them, without his divine protection they are susceptible to failure.

Like God didn't protect the Nephites from the Lamanites, because the Nephites were wicked and unrepenting. God did not protect the Jews from the Babylonians in the ancient days nor from the Nazi's in the modern days.

The acts are no less terrible and awful, but had the people been following God he would of protected them from these enemies, like he promised Israel he would.

I do not endorse the Holocaust it was a terrible and evil thing and should never happen again. What I am saying is if the Jews had feared the Lord there God and followed after him with all there hearts, minds, and soul, they would of never been a holocaust in the first place. God would of never allowed Hilter to do the things he did if his people had followed there end of the agreement they made with God to obey his commandments.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Anyway back to the debate, this is about these closet-anti-mormon protesters and what should we do about them.

We should love them with all our hearts, and serve them with all our energy!

Just like Jesus Christ would of done had he been in Arizona!

[Calm]

God didn't punish (I know I said punished earlier and I admit that it isn't the best wording I apologize)

This makes more sense

The acts are no less terrible and awful, but had the people been following God he would of protected them from these enemies, like he promised Israel he would.

Bad things happen to good people all the time. I guess I just feel it's inappropriate to draw a line and say someone is not being helped by God when something bad happens to him or those he loves because he is being disobedient, etc.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

Well, they've pretty much overplayed their hand, IMO. First, they tried to get a petition going regarding the zoning exceptions that were granted to the Church AFTER the Church had already agreed to make some changes in response to their requests. When they took that step, the Church cut the argument off at its knees by changing the plans to comply with pre-existing zoning, meaning there's NOTHING the residents can do legally at this point. It's now clear that what they really wanted is for the Temple to not be there at all, not that they wanted some changes made to the design to make it more to their liking. I've tried at least three times to get their "leader" to tell me what concessions his group has offered to Church leadership in this matter and been ignored each time. Their motive, IMO, is now laid bare.

I agree, they simply do not want Mormon's in their community. I would say, any wealthy Mormons who are looking to move should go, buy up property, and build themselves new houses in that area and then become a majority in the Homeowner's association. Then you will see how quickly they will protest.

[Walden]

In my opinion the Jews were not persecuted but punished for there wickedness. Just as the Bible says they would be punished if they continued to reject the Lord there God who delivered them from Egypt.

The crimes committed against them were terrible but God has a terrible wrath when his covenant people are wicked and reject him.

The LDS Church was persecuted on the sole basis of there faith in God and the restoration of the Gospel. They were chased across the nation, had houses burned, family tared and feathered, beaten, and even murdered in cold blood.

This is nothing though to the persecution of the Native Americans by the United States Government, no people were as violated and treated unfairly than the Native Americans. They were robbed and murdered so greedy men could take land that wasn't theres and claim it as there own, to bulldoze over centuries of civilization and destroy countless artifacts and culture in the name of "manifest destiny".

After reading this statement from a mormon, I don't know that I'd want an LDS temple built near my home either.

This is the type of rationale that gives mormons a bad name.

[Sky]

I appreciate and welcome everyone

[Blossom]

I am confused.

You get a temple in your neighborhood. Would they raise sand if it was a bar or a tattoo parlor? Holy cow.

People need to get real. This is nuts.

Let the building begin. There are worse things that could move into a neighborhood, for goodness sakes.

Blessings,

Blossom

[krose]

But I could be wrong

[LDS Guy 1986]

Who said anything about joining the torches-and-pitchforks crowd? I was simply pointing out the absurdity of a mormon playing the persecution card while rationalizing that the destruction of 6 million jews was somehow justified.

And though I never heard it directly taught in church, I did know mormons (and catholics and protestants and evangelicals) who had a similar line of thinking....that the travesties and calamities endured by the jews were some type of punishment for their role in the crucifixion. If you can honestly say in all your years in the church that you never heard this viewpoint espoused by members, then you must have attended an extremely enlightened ward your entire life.

Who said anything about the Holocaust was justified or had anything to do with the Crucifiction ?

Your implying things here that were not said, I never mentioned the crucifiction, all I am talking about is Old Testament.

I know I didn't, I said (and have sense said again and again) that God clearly says destruction will fall upon the Jews if they break there covenants with him. They will be scattered across the globe and will be afflicted and destroyed by there enemies without the protection of God. If the Jews had not forsaken there God (as they have done many times in the past and have been scattered and afflicted many times before) Hitler could of never done anything to harm them.

The Jews are victims of a horrible crime, God did not use Hilter nor was Hitler a "tool of God". God simply did not protect the Jews from Hitler because the Jews were not obeying there covenants with God to follow after him. It is part of the unending cycle you see in the Holy Bible of the pride and humility. The Jews become proud of there strength and no longer follow God, God removes his protection from Israel, the people are conquered, scattered, and afflicted, they humble themselves before God, repent of there sins, and are delivered from there oppressors.

This is all strictly Biblical and all Old Testament, the only way to take offense to this is to ignore the word of God and take this way out of context by assuming crazy stuff like Hitler was doing God's work (which is a lie).

You need not look any further than the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out by the Lamanites because they refused to repent and humble themselves before God. Did God use the Lamanites to exterminate the Nephites? Absolutely not, the Lamanites choose to murder the Nephites, God simply didn't stop the Lamanites wicked plans because the Nephites broke there covenants with him.

Now God did warn the Nephites (like he warned the Jews) that disobedience to there covenants with God carried dire consequences, because he knew what would happen. But he does not force anyone, he warns them and allows them to choose what they will do.

[LDS Guy 1986]

A prophecy of an event is not the same as saying someone deserved what they got.

Who is saying that anyone deserved anything?

We are only saying what happened, the deserves and all that is between them and God. All we know is that the Bible warns the Hebrew people that if they break there covenants and do not follow God they will lost his protection and there enemies will attempt to destroy them and will afflict them with terrible things.

[CQUIRK]

After reading this statement from a mormon, I don't know that I'd want an LDS temple built near my home either.

That rationale is also the same as "a black man said some offensive words to me, so I don't know if I want any black people living in my neighborhood."

Talk about an ignoramus and simpleton viewpoint.

This is the type of rationale that gives mormons a bad name.

That type of logic could apply to any group of any kind, its a fact of life.

[ttribe]

Who is saying that anyone deserved anything?

We are only saying what happened, the deserves and all that is between them and God. All we know is that the Bible warns the Hebrew people that if they break there covenants and do not follow God they will lost his protection and there enemies will attempt to destroy them and will afflict them with terrible things.

How about we honor Sky's request and let this go?

[Sky]

Perhaps.

I think a good way to test your biases would be to imagine if it were a large mosque being built a block away from your house, projected to be visited by thousands every day, and gauge your reaction. If you can, in complete honesty, say you would not object in any way, then it's probably safe to assume your opinion is not just based on this being your particular religion's large building.

As for me, I would not be happy with any large building in my neighborhood, be it a mosque, a temple, a cathedral, or a big gathering place for gays or atheists.

And conversely, a good way to test the biases of the neighbors living next to the LDS temple site in Phoenix is to see if they would be as upset if it were a mosque, cathedral, or just a mainstream Protestant denomination. Or for that matter

[Daniel Peterson]

I think a good way to test your biases would be to imagine if it were a large mosque being built a block away from your house,

I would have absolutely no problem with this.

projected to be visited by thousands every day,

I doubt that the Phoenix Temple will be visited by "thousands every day."

Let's say, though, that it will offer fifteen sessions per day, averaging about a hundred patrons for each session. (Which seems to me to be on the high side.)

That would be fifteen hundred patrons per day, running from, say, about seven in the morning to about ten at night. That's about fifteen hours. So, about one hundred patrons per hour.

Most of them will typically come with somebody else. Let's be really generous, and have them come only in pairs. That yields about fifty cars per hour, or a little less than one every minute.

Not exactly surging multitudes.

and gauge your reaction. If you can, in complete honesty, say you would not object in any way, then it's probably safe to assume your opinion is not just based on this being your particular religion's large building.

I would be quite undisturbed by such a building.

In fact, with its elegant quiet, its manicured grounds, its cleanliness, and its beauty, I would probably welcome it as something that would improve my neighborhood and make it unique.

The largest Buddhist temple in the western hemisphere -- many times larger than the proposed Phoenix Temple -- was built about twenty-five years ago, just over the hill from where my parents lived in southern California. I was delighted.

[Libs]

That Buddhist Temple is beautiful. I visited there, not long ago, and amazingly, it is just over the hill from where my parents lived (they are both deceased now) and not that far from my own Fullerton home.

I agree with you, Dan, about the Temples and other houses of worship. They add, they do not detract, from our neighborhoods. I mean, this is America and we are supposed to be all about religious freedom....and not just religious freedom for a certain sect of Christians, but for all.

[Bsix]

I think a good way to test your biases would be to imagine if it were a large mosque being built a block away from your house, projected to be visited by thousands every day, and gauge your reaction. If you can, in complete honesty, say you would not object in any way, then it's probably safe to assume your opinion is not just based on this being your particular religion's large building.

I personally would be delighted to have a mosque in our lovely LDS-majority neighborhood. However, by trying to appeal to bigotry against Muslims as a context, you make the point (sideways) that bigotry is the likely basis for objections to this Mormon temple.

As for me, I would not be happy with any large building in my neighborhood, be it a mosque, a temple, a cathedral, or a big gathering place for gays or atheists.

An understandable emotion. However, personal tastes should not be a controlling factor in limiting freedom of religion. Too often, city zoning as it related to the height,size, and other factors of religious buildings is used as a tool for bigots who seek to block the religious practices of others.

Six

[Bsix]

I wonder...

I wonder...how many of those in the neighborhood attend the Christ's Church of the Valley? (It is a mega-supersized-humungo Protestant Church less than three miles from the site of the planned LDS Temple. The parking lot alone of this Church is about ten to 15 times the entire temple property. It also has about 15,000 attend each weekend...and a pizza place and coffee shop.)

I wonder...is the height of the proposed LDS Temple going to be dwarfed by the massive water slides of the nearby (about a mile away) Wet-and-Wild water theme park that is just off the same street as the temple?

I wonder...will the proposed Temple will have as much traffic as the golf course just a few blocks down the street from the Temple?

Six

[frankenstein]

good points Bsix, like I said if anyone wants to counter protest, I will bring the donuts.

[CQUIRK]

I wonder...how many of those in the neighborhood attend the Christ's Church of the Valley? (It is a mega-supersized-humungo Protestant Church less than three miles from the site of the planned LDS Temple. The parking lot alone of this Church is about ten to 15 times the entire temple property. It also has about 15,000 attend each weekend...and a pizza place and coffee shop.

WTF?! A coffee shop, I understand, but a freaken' pizza place inside a church?!

If there's one sign of the 'Great and Abominable Church' coming forth, its definably this creeping materialism and sacrilege going on in such "popular" churches.

[Bsix]

WTF?! A coffee shop, I understand, but a freaken' pizza place inside a church?!

If there's one sign of the 'Great and Abominable Church' coming forth, its definably this creeping materialism and sacrilege going on in such "popular" churches.

For starters, my post was not intended to bring down condemnation of the local Christian Church I mentioned. The church in question is HUGE...a campus of facilities. A coffee shop or place to eat (Pizza) doesn't seem any more material or commercial than a cafeteria at one of our larger temples or at LDS Church facilities. I'd say be careful about throwing stones in a glass house on this count.

My point is that compared to some other facilities within a short distance of these facilities...the LDS temple is really quite small. And, the level of vitrol and resistance seems disportionate to the scale of the temple.

Six

[krose]

I would have absolutely no problem with this.

Great. So if your answer would be the same for any other group (including, say, FLDS or a "free-love" commune), then it would appear that you are consistently open regarding large gatherings of people locating in your neighborhood.

But your estimate of a car per minute seems strange, since I would assume all the people attending a particular session would try to arrive around the same time.

[krose]

However, by trying to appeal to bigotry against Muslims as a context, you make the point (sideways) that bigotry is the likely basis for objections to this Mormon temple.

No, the choice of Islam was just an example of "a religion that's not yours." I could just as easily have specified Hare Krishna or Scientology, or even a Salvation Army homeless shelter.

I think you really overplay the bigotry card. Being opposed to your religious building does not make a person bigoted toward you. I was very much opposed to the building of the Draper temple right in the middle of a residential neighborhood. I think it's a monstrosity, the way it dwarfs everything around it, and I that it's a gaudy, ugly structure. But does that mean I hate Mormons? That would be an odd leap, considering the fact that all but a couple of the people that I love in my life are active LDS. Maybe the people in that area of Phoenix hate Mormons, but I doubt it.

I wonder...how many of those in the neighborhood attend the Christ's Church of the Valley? (It is a mega-supersized-humungo Protestant Church less than three miles from the site of the planned LDS Temple.

I wonder...is the height of the proposed LDS Temple going to be dwarfed by the massive water slides of the nearby (about a mile away) Wet-and-Wild water theme park that is just off the same street as the temple?

I wonder...will the proposed Temple will have as much traffic as the golf course just a few blocks down the street from the Temple?

Interesting. Are those in residential-zoned areas? I'm in favor of keeping all such businesses (including the business of salvation) out of residential neighborhoods. That's what zoning regulations should be for.

[Bsix]

I'm in favor of keeping all such businesses (including the business of salvation) out of residential neighborhoods. That's what zoning regulations should be for.

The proposed LDS temple isn't truely "in" a residential neighborhood. It is more accurate to say that the temple will adjoin the outside edge of a residential neighborhood. I think that is an important distinction.

The temple and existing chapel are on corner lot on a NON-residential street. All of adjoining homes face away from the Temple and are accessed the by interior surface streets that are different from the street the Temple sits on. There are six homes that share a back yard property line with the LDS property. There are NO residences across the street from the temple for at least a mile in either direction.

Also, it is a clear violation of the law to use zoning ordinances for the purpose of blocking a Church. (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act 2000)

Media reports suggest that the LDS temple meets all city zoning requirments. From the media reports I have read, those who seek to the building of the temple are not sincerely seeking to assure zoning compliance. They are attempting to use zoning laws to either block the temple or to have it designed in a manner that pleases them. The manipulative use of the zoning law are not permitted under the law. For all of their objections, if the LDS Church meets the zoning requirements...the City must allow them to build.

Also, I do not suggest that all who oppose the temple are bigots. However, I do believe that a good number of folks object to this temple because it is the LDS Church. I would consider those who seek to restrict the free expression of religion to be bigots.

I do believe that had a local Catholic or Protestant Church attempted to build, there would be a lot less resistance from the neighborhood.

I also think that the objectors know that they are on the losing end of the law. Thus, I think they are attempting create so much ill will that they hope that the LDS Church will back down. It is an unfortunate tactic.

Six