Belief in doing nothing (or that it is not required) is sacrosanct

[nicolasconnault]

Thanks for your reply, Rob. There's something I don't understand here. If God's purpose is merely to "restore us to that created intention and make his redeemed people into humans who are conformed to the "image" of his Son, Jesus Christ ", why didn't He create us all like Christ in the first place? Wouldn't that have made his purpose more easily achieved? Why did He let Satan tempt us? Why does He allow evil? It seems, without wanting to be disrespectful, that according to your explanation God is playing a sort of game, assuming that He has ultimate control over the conditions of mortality, and could have altered them if doing so could have helped his purposes. Could you expand on this a bit more?

That would be like me asking the an LDS person "why didn't God just choose Lucifer's plan in the pre-existence"

Can you explain your comment? I really don't see how your question compares with mine.

[Libs]

No, it isn't. Salvation doesn't come until AFTER you die, obedience, if it is done, is done in this life.

Now you could say that obedience is a "result" of conversion.

LDS would say that, but most mainstream Christians would not. Because Christ is the one doing the 'saving', salvation is immediate. Sanctification, however, is a process.

And by us.

The Holy Ghost is given to the obedient.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Vance, I was anything BUT obedient, when I first started reading the Book of Mormon, and yet I did feel the "spirit", when I read it.

So to walk in the Spirit is to walk in obedience.

Yes, ultimately. But, some would say, it is Christ's Spirit that causes us to become obedient. It doesn't just happen of our own volition.

As you are to yours.

????

Sorry to confuse. I am attending a mainstream church, right now (a Reformed Church, actually), so I am presenting that point of view, mainly because I believe there was a mistaken belief about that point of view, presented in the OP.

In reality, I am much more a liberal Christian, with a sprinkling of metaphysics thrown in.

I probably agree with your view, more than you might think. I believe Jesus' teachings are important and have value, if we follow them. But, I don't think just blindly following is of much value. There are underlying principles that we should understand, which will cause us to naturally follow those teachings, I believe. Especially his teachings about loving one another.

[Vance]

Vance, I was anything BUT obedient, when I first started reading the Book of Mormon, and yet I did feel the "spirit", when I read it.

If you indeed did feel the "spirit" as you say, then you were reading the Book of Mormon with sincere heart and real intent, and that doesn't jive with your "I was anything BUT obedient" statement.

[Libs]

If you indeed did feel the "spirit" as you say, then you were reading the Book of Mormon with sincere heart and real intent, and that doesn't jive with your "I was anything BUT obedient" statement.

Well, I didn't see it as "obedience". More as curiosity. I wasn't obeying the WofW or probably many of the other commandments, at that time. I was curious and I was seeking, yes.

[seriously honestly]

Can you explain your comment? I really don't see how your question compares with mine.

Yeah, sure. In Mormonism (as you know) Lucifer's plan, to insure that no one was lost and all would return to heaven, was that no one would have agency; we would all have to do what is right, not because we wanted to, but because their would be no other option (and of course, Lucifer would get the glory). Jesus' plan was the opposite. In the end God choose Jesus' plan, even though it would result in not everyone returning, because it included a choice.

If God had created us all like Christ from the get go, and if He never allowed us to be tempted or never allowed evil, it would be equivalent to God choosing Lucifer's plan. That was my point of my early comment.

Christianity is about a relationship, and in order to choose to be in that relationship, one needs to have the ability to make a choice. God could have removed our ability to choose, but if He had, our ability to have a genuine relationship would cease to exist as well.

Hope this helps If not, let me know.

[nicolasconnault]

Yeah, sure. In Mormonism (as you know) Lucifer's plan, to insure that no one was lost and all would return to heaven, was that no one would have agency; we would all have to do what is right, not because we wanted to, but because their would be no other option (and of course, Lucifer would get the glory). Jesus' plan was the opposite. In the end God choose Jesus' plan, even though it would result in not everyone returning, because it included a choice.

If God had created us all like Christ from the get go, and if He never allowed us to be tempted or never allowed evil, it would be equivalent to God choosing Lucifer's plan. That was my point of my early comment.

Christianity is about a relationship, and in order to choose to be in that relationship, one needs to have the ability to make a choice. God could have removed our ability to choose, but if He had, our ability to have a genuine relationship would cease to exist as well.

Hope this helps If not, let me know.

OK I understand However, I only wrote my question in response to Rob Bowman's explanation of his own (non-Mormon) beliefs, not in a way to support my own beliefs. Of course, I agree with you.

Just one point I should correct though: we don't believe that the alternative to Lucifer's plan was Jesus' plan. We believe it was God the Father's plan, and that Jesus only accepted to submit himself to it. This may seem like a trivial distinction, but I think it's important.

[Bernard Gui]

Excellent comment; would have saved a lot of trouble and suffering.

In previous discussions with a long-gone Reformed Christian on this board,

I learned that those who are damned were created as the vessels of God's wrath who

are used to demonstrate and confirm his sovereignty. Perhaps what I learned was wrong?

Bernard

[Libs]

In previous discussions with a long-gone Reformed Christian on this board,

I learned that those who are damned were created as the vessels of God's wrath who

are used to demonstrate and confirm his sovereignty. Perhaps what I learned was wrong?

Bernard

Well, I've never heard it put exactly like that. The Reformed view is that we are all "vessels of wrath", because we are all sinners. God, in his sovereignty, love and mercy, chooses to save some.

The reference for your comment is Romans 9:22, I would think.

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..."

[Calm]

Legalism

"The term legalism is used by many authors to describe any belief system that implies that a Christian receives salvation and right standing with God by carefully following a list of expected behaviors which has been constructed by the creators of the system."

http://www.biblestud...s/legalism.html

So is it a legalism if the list has been created by God?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Legalism

Do you see this scripture as some future event? I am suprized you would use it in this thread. Also he asked for Biblical CFR, not an author writing about scripture; with all due respect.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In previous discussions with a long-gone Reformed Christian on this board,

I learned that those who are damned were created as the vessels of God's wrath who

are used to demonstrate and confirm his sovereignty. Perhaps what I learned was wrong?

Bernard

I have seen the same.

[Libs]

Do you see this scripture as some future event? I am suprized you would use it in this thread. Also he asked for Biblical CFR, not an author writing about scripture; with all due respect.

I did give biblical references. You just quoted one of them.

I think Jesus and what he says about the Pharisees is probably the best reference for legalism. Outward obedience to all of the laws, but inwardly corrupt and evil. They followed the law mostly for show, not because they were "walking in the Spirit".

[Libs]

So is it a legalism if the list has been created by God?

It's not the "lists". It's about the heart. The Pharisees followed every jot and tittle of the law, but in their hearts they were, actually, breaking every commandment, because their obedience didn't really come from knowing God. It came from ego and wanting to appear pious and Godly.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That would be like me asking the an LDS person "why didn't God just choose Lucifer's plan in the pre-existence"

Disagree

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It's not the "lists". It's about the heart. The Pharisees followed every jot and tittle of the law, but in their hearts they were, actually, breaking every commandment, because their obedience didn't really come from knowing God. It came from ego and wanting to appear pious and Godly.

Paul addressed this very condition

[Libs]

Paul addressed this very condition

[Libs]

I am also trying to explain to you that conservative Protestants believe that salvation is of Christ alone. That is their belief and they back it up with scripture like Ephesians 2:8-9. But, they don't believe that we should "do nothing", as was stated in the OP. We follow Christ because we are saved. Obedience is the sanctifying process and is done by walking in the Spirit (Christ guiding us every step of the way). But, it is not believed to be a part of salvation. That is of Christ alone.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Disingenuous? Not at all. Why do you think that?

The question is about legalism...what is it? I am simply saying the Pharisees were a perfect example of legalism (and that is very biblical). Do you disagree??

About the Pharisees; no. But Christ was clear in his charge. But for some reason Paul always seems to trump him. He would know best; Christ I mean. If I knew how to write, I would write a book called "The Gospel According to Christ".

[Libs]

About the Pharisees; no. But Christ was clear in his charge. But for some reason Paul always seems to trump him. He would know best; Christ I mean. If I knew how to write, I would write a book called "The Gospel According to Christ".

Paul doesn't trump Christ, not at all. Mainstream Christians (most of them) put a distinct separation between salvation and sanctification. The former (salvation) is completely of Christ, just as Paul says, and the latter is more of a collaborative effort, as presented by James. LDS kind of put both of those together, all wrapped up into one package...different sides of the same coin, as they say, which many then interpret as legalism, because it appears to them as salvation by works.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Paul doesn't trump Christ, not at all. Mainstream Christians (most of them) put a distinct separation between salvation and sanctification. The former (salvation) is completely of Christ, just as Paul says, and the latter is more of a collaborative effort, as presented by James. LDS kind of put both of those together, all wrapped up into one package...different sides of the same coin, as they say, which many then interpret as legalism, because it appears to them as salvation by works.

It may be "both sides of the same coin", but that "coin" is needed to realize all of God's blessings. So let them call it what they will...we call it the truth.

[Libs]

Papa, going back to your original point....

On the issues of obedience teachings are quite liberal, but on how someone thinks, via creeds, works, etc

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Papa, going back to your original point....

This is actually a very good point. For some (or many) what you believe becomes more important than behavior and how you treat people. I don't think belief should or CAN ever trump "the heart" and intentions of an individual. In that sense, I believe many more people will be "saved", than some people think. But, then, I also believe many more people, than most LDS believe, will experience the glory of all of God's blessings. It won't be just a select few. And they will not all be just people who have been baptised into the LDS Church...IMHO.

It will be those who choose it...otherwise what would it mean? God has promised us that we will be judged and reward based on our works...through his grace.

[Calm]

For some (or many) what you believe becomes more important than behavior and how you treat people. I don't think belief should or CAN ever trump "the heart" and intentions of an individual.

How someone behaves indicates what they really believe (as opposed to what they have knowledge of). Even the demons believe (have knowledge of) Christ after all.

Someone may know that smoking causes cancer, but likely iif they choose to smoke they are doing it because they believe that cancer won't be a problem for them, that they will beat the odds.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Someone may know that smoking causes cancer, but likely iif they choose to smoke they are doing it because they believe that cancer won't be a problem for them, that they will beat the odds.

Great analogy...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yeah, sure. In Mormonism (as you know) Lucifer's plan, to insure that no one was lost and all would return to heaven,

But you no longer believe this...so how can you use this argument?