Tanub, Toltecs, and Tula

[Truth]

I was reading through the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith last night and came upon Joseph's description that the Toltecs are descended from the House of Israel "who were released by Moses from the tyranny of Pharoah, and after crossing the Red Sea, fell into idolatry. To avoid the reproofs of Moses, or from fear of his inflicting upon them some chastisement, they separated from him and his brethern, and under the guidance of Tanub, their chief, passed from one continent to the other, to a place which they called the seven caverns, a part of the kingdom of Mexico, where they founded the celebrated city of Tula." Sept. 15, 1842 T&S 3:921-22 from the TPSJ pg. 302.

This, I think, seems to be taken from an extract of a book called "Stephen's Incidents of Travel in Central America".

I have never heard of this. I have always thought that others had made it or been lead to the Americas. I am not sure I see the Lord leading an idolatros group here.

Any other thoughts, writings, or knowledge on this? Who was Tanub?

[Brant Gardner]

I was reading through the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith last night and came upon Joseph's description that the Toltecs are descended from the House of Israel "who were released by Moses from the tyranny of Pharoah, and after crossing the Red Sea, fell into idolatry. To avoid the reproofs of Moses, or from fear of his inflicting upon them some chastisement, they separated from him and his brethern, and under the guidance of Tanub, their chief, passed from one continent to the other, to a place which they called the seven caverns, a part of the kingdom of Mexico, where they founded the celebrated city of Tula." Sept. 15, 1842 T&S 3:921-22 from the TPSJ pg. 302.

This, I think, seems to be taken from an extract of a book called "Stephen's Incidents of Travel in Central America".

I have never heard of this. I have always thought that others had made it or been lead to the Americas. I am not sure I see the Lord leading an idolatros group here.

Any other thoughts, writings, or knowledge on this? Who was Tanub?

During Joseph Smith's time there was no consistent understanding of Mesoamerican history, and much of what got passed around became garbled to one extent or another. This is an example. I have no idea what/who "Tanub" was, but it isn't a name that is associated iwth the Toltecs that I know of (and appears more Maya-ish than Nahuatl-ish, which would be more appropriate to Tula."

As for traditions of people arriving in the New World, there is a Nahua legend of people arriving at the river Panuco. However, it is unclear how to understand the history behind it. Much of what we have has been distorted through the filter of the conquest and became a reference to Spanish occupation. Various lines of evidence suggest to me that this wasn't the pre-Hispanic meaning.

The entire enterprise of understanding how legends relate to history, particularly in Mesoamerica, is very complicated. It certainly wasn't understood in Joseph's times, and anything he repeated that he had heard would likely not pass modern scrutiny.

[Truth]

I understand that and it was one of my first thoughts, but it seems like a pronouncement as fact. That there was a Tanub with Moses. Then to actually say they broke off and came to the Americas made me wonder if he had a divine knowledge of such, found it in a book, etc.

I was wondering if Tanub is an Egyptian type name?

[Truth]

I did some hunting around and found something from the Maxwell Institute: My link

[Brant Gardner]

I did some hunting around and found something from the Maxwell Institute: My link

At the beginning of the article it notes that it represents the opinion of the author, and not that of the Maxwell Institute. That is a wise difference in this case. That article does not reflect current scholarship, either in the understanding of how the Spanish affected native portrayals of their stories or of the linguistics involved.

[Calm]

Is it known for sure that Joseph Smith made this claim/interpretation and not someone else?

If so, it makes for an interesting contribution for the understanding of others beyond the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites being led or coming to this side of the world....iow, it would appear that Joseph was open to the idea that there were others present in this hemisphere others than the three groups specifically referenced in the BoM.

Revelant quote from the article with references:

Joseph Smith is said to have

[Robert F. Smith]

At the beginning of the article it notes that it represents the opinion of the author, and not that of the Maxwell Institute. That is a wise difference in this case. That article does not reflect current scholarship, either in the understanding of how the Spanish affected native portrayals of their stories or of the linguistics involved.

Still, it would be nice to have John Sorenson's FARMS Update summaries in those 1995 issues of Insights evaluated by some disinterested experts in linguistics. I would love to see what Dr. Mary LeCron Foster has done in specific terms. I'm not surprised that her work in that area remains unpublished. My own work in that area also remains unpublished.

[erichard]

I did some hunting around and found something from the Maxwell Institute: My link

Hi,

I did some hunting around myself and found this:

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/copan.htm

I have not read it all, just parts of it, but it apparently claims that the Mayans came from the middle east. It is non-Mormon of course. And it is speculative, but interesting.

Tanub in this seems to be someone like Mulek that takes a bunch of people to the new world but have no prophets among them.

Richard

[Brant Gardner]

Still, it would be nice to have John Sorenson's FARMS Update summaries in those 1995 issues of Insights evaluated by some disinterested experts in linguistics. I would love to see what Dr. Mary LeCron Foster has done in specific terms. I'm not surprised that her work in that area remains unpublished. My own work in that area also remains unpublished.

The one term I know is Tepeuh, which is part of the Toltec heritage brought with the Quiche. It is from Nahuatl.

[Brant Gardner]

http://www.hope-of-i...l.org/copan.htm

I definitely wouldn't recommend that article.

[Nofear]

Though it is rather unlikely that Joseph's understanding of Tula's origins is misplaced, it is nonetheless a significant reference in that it lends evidence that Joseph Smith himself was willing to entertain the idea that the Jaredites and the Lehites weren't the exclusive population sources for the New World.