Women and the Priesthood

[nicolasconnault]

I think women do not need to be ordained to priestesshood because they are born priestesses, whereas men have to be ordained to get the priesthood. Note that women enter the temple and therein perform priesthood ordinances without having been ordained in this lifetime, whereas a man can do neither of these until he is formally ordained. The precedent for some people being born with priesthood is set by a literal descendant of Aaron holding the office of Bishop by birthright. Priestesshood was the original intent of the Relief Society. See History of the Church, volume 4, page 602.

I can think of two possible reasons why the current church leadership ignores the priestesshood of women: Either it's something that individuals are supposed to learn on their own, or the LDS church is in the midst of an apostasy similar to what befell the early Christian church, wherein plain and precious truths are lost and astounding revelations from true prophets are replaced by predictable committee-drafted creeds (such as The Proclaimation on the Family).

Note also that women have motherhood and men have fatherhood, and likewise men have priesthood and women have priestesshood... only, they don't need someone else to give it to them. All they need is to make the discovery.

stYro

Not wanting to derail the thread, do you believe that the priesthood is a blessing that is currently being denied to sisters of the LDS Church?

[David T]

I think women do not need to be ordained to priestesshood because they are born priestesses, whereas men have to be ordained to get the priesthood. Note that women enter the temple and therein perform priesthood ordinances without having been ordained in this lifetime

They do need to have received the ordinances associated with the priesthood as part of the Endowment in the Temple before they can be set apart to perform the ordinances therein. This is significant.

[stYro]

Not wanting to derail the thread, do you believe that the priesthood is a blessing that is currently being denied to sisters of the LDS Church?

I think they already have it but they don't know it.

[stYro]

They do need to have received the ordinances associated with the priesthood as part of the Endowment in the Temple before they can be set apart to perform the ordinances therein. This is significant.

I'm not talking about temple workers. I'm talking about participation in events in the Endowment ceremony itself.

Think of all the things associated with the temple that have the word "priesthood" directly attached, and how many of these things women participate in right alongside the men. If they are not priesthood (or priestesshood) holders, then they would be out of place.

stYro

[David T]

or the LDS church is in the midst of an apostasy similar to what befell the early Christian church, wherein plain and precious truths are lost and astounding revelations from true prophets are replaced by predictable committee-drafted creeds (such as The Proclaimation on the Family).

For the record, I very much disagree with this assessment, and do believe revelation can be (and is) received through a Council process, ratified by the Presiding Officer. Not only was this something taught explicitly by Joseph (he stated he considered minutes of Priesthood Council meetings to have a degree of scriptural authority that should be studied and applied). , but this was actually a key theme of the most recent Worldwide Leadership Training Program, voiced most clearly by Elder Bednar.

[David T]

I'm not talking about temple workers. I'm talking about participation in events in the Endowment ceremony itself.

So you meant to say the 'recieving' of ordinances, not the performing (carrying out) of them.

[stYro]

So you meant to say the 'recieving' of ordinances, not the performing (carrying out) of them.

Nope.

Sorry, I can't get specific. Replay the ceremony in your mind.

[David T]

Think of all the things associated with the temple that have the word "priesthood" directly attached, and how many of these things women participate in right alongside the men. If they are not priesthood (or priestesshood) holders, then they would be out of place.

I think perhaps we're talking past each other on this matter.

[stYro]

I think perhaps we're talking past each other on this matter.

Well, let me try again.

Think about things that you do, and the words used to describe what you do, in the endowment ceremony. See if there is anything that would seem out of place if half of the people doing it held no priesthood.

Or contemplate this: Can a deacon legitimately officiate in a Melchizedek priesthood ordinance?

stYro

[Calm]

However, IMO this is nothing more than a semantic distinction, and we definitely shouldn't stress about it

I won't if you won't.

I do think it's unfortunate when women think because there are priesthood blessings available that their own prayer-like blessings aren't as valuable or perhaps needed which is why I kept pressing the point. My opinion is that they play a different, but equally important role.

[Monster]

It is cultural and tradition why women do not have the priesthood. I am not aware of any scripture prohibiting them.

[David T]

Well, let me try again.

Think about things that you do, and the words used to describe what you do, in the endowment ceremony. See if there is anything that would seem out of place if half of the people doing it held no priesthood.

Or contemplate this: Can a deacon legitimately officiate in a Melchizedek priesthood ordinance?

stYro

While I am well aware of what you are getting at, and with respect to your interpretation, and as someone probably just as familiar with the ordinances as you are (I served as an ordinance worker), I still hold my present understanding that, in standard practice, nothing pertaining to priesthood is performed by an individual until it its equivalent is first received. In some cases, the receiving and giving are part and parcel of a single ceremony.

Out of respect for the subject matter and board guidelines, I'm not going to press further on this subject here on the boards.

[stYro]

While I am well aware of what you are getting at, and with respect to your interpretation, and as someone probably just as familiar with the ordinances as you are (I served as an ordinance worker), I still hold my present understanding that, in standard practice, nothing pertaining to priesthood is performed by an individual until it its equivalent is first received. In some cases, the receiving and giving are part and parcel of a single ceremony.

Out of respect for the subject matter and board guidelines, I'm not going to press further on this subject here on the boards.

I understand your reply.

In that case, all I can ask is that you keep an open mind about this question: When, in this lifetime, was she expliciitly given the authority, like the man was? She clearly has it and uses it.

stYro

[stYro]

Nackhadlow, how would you answer your original question?:

In Practice and Policy, Why does the Church currently not authorize ordination of women to priesthood offices, or encourage their participation in (extra-temple) Priesthood Ordinances?

Thanks.

stYro

[Mortal Man]

There is no record of Jesus ordaining women as Apostles, etc.

Perhaps not, but Junia became a prominent apostle (Romans 16:7), and Phoebe was a deacon and/or minister of the church at Cenchreae.

Prisca (who is mentioned ahead of her husband) was a missionary and leader of a congregation in her home.

Also, Mary, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Persis, Julia, the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus all had leading roles in the early church.

[Mortal Man]

finish this sentance:

Current Church Leaders do not ordain women to Priesthood offices because they are...

...acting, in part, based on misunderstandings of NT textual history.

Most of the verses in the Pauline epistles subjugating women were not actually written by Paul. For example, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 was written pseudopigraphically 30-90 years after Paul's death. These verses are echoed in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (and no one disputes that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians); however, they are shuffled around in the earliest manuscripts. In three Greek texts and two Latin ones, they appear after verse 40, suggesting they originated as a scribal marginal note, possibly written by the author of 1 Timothy (see Misquoting Jesus 182-183).

[mfbukowski]

(Romans 16:7)

It actually says "prominent AMONG the apostles" which could mean something like "well known to the apostles".

I will check the Greek when I get around to it.

[David T]

For the record, Mortal Man, I feel these comments to be a highly valid interpretation and understanding. Thanks.

Perhaps not, but Junia became a prominent apostle (Romans 16:7), and Phoebe was a deacon and/or minister of the church at Cenchreae.

Prisca (who is mentioned ahead of her husband) was a missionary and leader of a congregation in her home.

Also, Mary, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Persis, Julia, the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus all had leading roles in the early church.

[consiglieri]

What are your thoughts on the matter? Is there another option?

Great question, Nack!

I believe the LDS Church does not give women the Priesthood for the same reason it did not give African blacks the Priesthood.

Tradition.

There is no revelation saying women cannot have the Priesthood, just as no such revelation existed for the Priesthood ban with blacks.

Joseph Smith is recorded as having given the Priesthood to some blacks in early church history, which was overlooked as much as the fact that Joseph Smith was paving the way for women to have the Priesthood, going so far as to remark that when the Nauvoo temple was completed (which he never lived to see), women would officiate in ordinances of the Priesthood therein.

(Guess what? Women officiate in Priesthood ordinances in every LDS temple even today. How do they do that without the Priesthood?)

And as the LDS Church finally received a revelation that the time had come for faithful black LDS men to get the Priesthood, so that day will come for faithful LDS women.

Mark it, Elder Rigdon!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Senator]

And as the LDS Church finally received a revelation that the time had come for faithful black LDS men to get the Priesthood, so that day will come for faithful LDS women.

Mark it, Elder Rigdon!

Which priesthood:

Melchezidec or patriarchal.....or both?

[consiglieri]

Which priesthood:

Melchezidec or patriarchal.....or both?

The whole shooting match!

Though I think it would be nice if women could receive a priesthood named after a female.

Like the Sarah Priesthood.

The Ruth Priesthood?

On a slightly more serious note, I think the Patriarchal Priesthood is to the Melchizedek Priesthood what the Melchizedek Priesthood is to the Aaronic Priesthood.

In other words, I believe one cannot hold the Patriarchal Priesthood without holding the other two.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mercyngrace]

Though I think it would be nice if women could receive a priesthood named after a female.

Like the Sarah Priesthood.

The Ruth Priesthood?

The priesthood of Anna, the prophetess?

The order of Eve?

Lots of wonderful women to choose from, all of whom were endowed from on high, many of whom prophesied, foresaw, called down the powers of heaven, and even one who acted as a judge in Israel...

[consiglieri]

The Presidency of the High MercynGrace Priesthood?

[mercyngrace]

The Presidency of the High MercynGrace Priesthood?

LOL. I have no such aspirations. Godliness is its own reward and no power can be withheld from the righteous.

[Senator]

In other words, I believe one cannot hold the Patriarchal Priesthood without holding the other two.

Perhaps.

But I wonder if it is the Patriarchal Priesthood that demands gender specificity; as its corollary Matriarchal priesthood demands also.

Does these priesthoods have to do with the right/ability to fatherhood, motherhood?

[Edited for typos]