todd520 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 When Gospel Principles was updated, I noticed a big change in Chapter 47 on Exaltation. One of the blessings used to read:3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.The original declaration seemed to be a strong statement for the teaching of eternal progression. However, in the current Gospel Principles it now reads3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.My questions are:Why was the reference to 'having spirit children' removed?Is this belief stated in scripture or revelation, and where?Since Gospel Principles didn't provide a source, I wonder where it came from or if LDS has been teaching speculation as doctrine..
Fifth Columnist Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Why was the reference to 'having spirit children' removed?Oh, that's easy. It was embarrassing to the Church. Give it a little more time and we will start to hear "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it . . ."
todd520 Posted January 17, 2011 Author Posted January 17, 2011 Oh, that's easy. It was embarrassing to the Church. Give it a little more time and we will start to hear "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it . . ."I doubt anyone will say it wasn't taught, since it was in the gospel principles book and can be read on LDS.ORG.I just want to understand if it was speculation, how it made it into a basic teaching manual.
BCSpace Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I just want to understand if it was speculation, how it made it into a basic teaching manual.It's not speculation. It is consistently taught elsewhere that we are the literal spirit children of God and that we will continue to have progeny as well.
todd520 Posted January 17, 2011 Author Posted January 17, 2011 It's not speculation. It is consistently taught elsewhere that we are the literal spirit children of God and that we will continue to have progeny as well.Thanks BCSpace,I've seen where it is taught that we are the spirit children of God. Scripture references are provided extensively in Premortal Life, etc.My question remains on scripture or revelation references supporting that 'exalted Man' will continue to have progeny. I have not been able to locate doctrine supporting this belief.
stemelbow Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I don't really have any answers to your questions...just some thoughts, if that's okay.Perhaps its the way I've trained my mind in this world, but it does not make much sense to me that immortal physical bodies will produce off-spring that are so physically different--in spirit form. Can we also be considered literal children of our Father if we are formed in some other way, unknown to us?
todd520 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks stemelbow,I see your answer as a sound logical deduction, I think it is becoming clear to me that LDS came to that teaching through deduction rather than revelation, and I'm OK with speculation on our life as an exalted person, as long as I know where it came from
Hestia Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Oh, that's easy. It was embarrassing to the Church. Give it a little more time and we will start to hear "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it . . ."Insults are not acceptable.
TAO Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 My question remains on scripture or revelation references supporting that 'exalted Man' will continue to have progeny. I have not been able to locate doctrine supporting this belief.There are two, though there could be more.D&C 132:1919 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them
David T Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 In line with those cited scriptures, and the actual teachings of Joseph Smith, such as King Follett Discourse, I agree with Richard Bushman, and am an Adoptionist - I believe that references to 'spirit children' are eternal intelligences found, gathered, and adopted through Covenant by God with our assent, and guided and cared after by their Covenant Father to fulfill their potential. The work will be continued by all the Exalted.Just as in the Gospel, the 'Seed of Abraham' and 'Seed of Christ' (and even 'Sons of Moses and Aaron') refer to Adoption through Covenant, and not biological procreation. It's very consistent in its powerful symbolism - just as an adopted child 'sealed' into one's family through the ordinances of the Temple becomes fully and completely one's child in an eternal sense. Bushman, from the FAIR Podcast: I like the Joseph Smith of the King Follett discourse which has the eternal intelligence that
TAO Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Although I believe in a 'spirit birth' by Father, I think that the intelligences themselves were adopted before that birth/creation, that I do.
BCSpace Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 It's not speculation. It is consistently taught elsewhere that we are the literal spirit children of God and that we will continue to have progeny as well.Thanks BCSpace,I've seen where it is taught that we are the spirit children of God. Scripture references are provided extensively in Premortal Life, etc.Yes, most of them do deal with the Premortal Life and the fact that we are the literal spirit children of God. But like produces like.....My question remains on scripture or revelation references supporting that 'exalted Man' will continue to have progeny. I have not been able to locate doctrine supporting this belief.References to continuation of the seeds or the continuation of lives are such. But here is an interesting one for you:One of the greatest blessings of my life is the covenant into which my wife and I entered when we were sealed in the temple. Blessings were pronounced upon us having to do with the years we would spend in mortality, and we are grateful that many of those have already been realized. But if we are faithful, the things we will most treasure lie in the future, beyond this life
ELF1024 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 My questions are:Why was the reference to 'having spirit children' removed?Is this belief stated in scripture or revelation, and where?Since Gospel Principles didn't provide a source, I wonder where it came from or if LDS has been teaching speculation as doctrine..I suspect that it was removed due to a knee jerk to the idea of "Celestial Sex" being used by the antis. Just my two cents.
todd520 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Posted January 18, 2011 BCSpace, to me your below quote is explicit in describing only our mortal progeny, here on earth. I don't see it referencing spirit children created by me as an exalted man.the joy of a growing progeny, including not only our children and beloved grandchildren but also <THEIR> descendants who are yet unborn, and the hope of a glorious eternal inheritance in the kingdom of our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.Anyone able to show me scripture that supports the OP?
MistyAnn0414 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Oh, that's easy. It was embarrassing to the Church. Give it a little more time and we will start to hear "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it . . ."LOL, "Long live the Fifth Column!" This is true, Gordon B. Hinckley did the same thing with the doctrine of the Mormon god once being a mortal man.
ELF1024 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 LOL, "Long live the Fifth Column!" This is true, Gordon B. Hinckley did the same thing with the doctrine of the Mormon god once being a mortal man. You might want to try actually reading what was said... but that might require you to have an open mind. He did not deny or renounce the doctrine. Quite simply, President Hinckley asserted that: we don't emphasize it.we don't tend to teach it much in public discourse.he doesn't know much about this topic, though he understands the philosophical underpinnings.no one else in the Church has much information on it either.
MistyAnn0414 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I suspect that it was removed due to a knee jerk to the idea of "Celestial Sex" being used by the antis. Just my two cents.How else do explain it, if you believe God and his goddess wife both have bodies of flesh and bone?
ELF1024 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 How else do explain it, if you believe God and his goddess wife both have bodies of flesh and bone? I don't explain it... it hasn't been explained. Quite simply put, we don't know.
todd520 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Posted January 18, 2011 LOL, "Long live the Fifth Column!" This is true, Gordon B. Hinckley did the same thing with the doctrine of the Mormon god once being a mortal man. Misty, the LDS doctrine is explicit that God was on earth and has a body of flesh and bone like Jesus or a mortal man.However It is an invald interpretation to assume LDS doctrine states God (and thus Jesus) were sinners like you or myself
MistyAnn0414 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 You might want to try actually reading what was said... but that might require you to have an open mind.No explanation is needed. I was still a member of the church when I heard him say this,I was floored by his comments, and yet I believed he choose the words that he did because it was something he didn't want to discuss on TV.
ELF1024 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 How else do explain it, if you believe God and his goddess wife both have bodies of flesh and bone? It is my understanding, that we are and always have been eternal beings. We were intelligences from the beginning of all things. At some point we "evolved" or were "organized" into spirits. Now we have bodies, another step in our "evolution". Does any of this imply "sex" betwen God and his wife? Not really. It doesn't go into how intelligences were made into spirits.We have always existed in one form or another, and we always will.
ELF1024 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 No explanation is needed. I was still a member of the church when I heard him say this,I was floored by his comments, and yet I believed he choose the words that he did because it was something he didn't want to discuss on TV. Really? Seems very clear that you misunderstood what was said, or only took the comments in Time Magazine at face value, without looking up the omitted portion of the comments. Based on your comments, there is ample proof that an explanation is required.
BCSpace Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 BCSpace, to me your below quote is explicit in describing only our mortal progeny, here on earth. I don't see it referencing spirit children created by me as an exalted man.Well shucks. If you don't believe that, I guess we'll just have to revert back to the manual:D&C 132:22
cinepro Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Why was the reference to 'having spirit children' removed?Is this belief stated in scripture or revelation, and where?Since Gospel Principles didn't provide a source, I wonder where it came from or if LDS has been teaching speculation as doctrine..This quote from Lorenzo Snow (as cited by President Kimball in 1979) definitely paints a picture:President Lorenzo Snow gives us a picture of the importance of celestial marriage:
Hestia Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 LOL, "Long live the Fifth Column!" This is true, Gordon B. Hinckley did the same thing with the doctrine of the Mormon god once being a mortal man. Once again insults are not allowed.
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