The Gathering of Israel

[brightpath]

I perceive a gospel hobby horse in the stall.

I am a literal descendant of Ephraim.

You seem to ignore all the words of prophets from Joseph Smith to Thomas S. Monson on the subject. Of the two groups, I prefer prophets. They seem to get it right more often than "experts".

Lehi

You are not a literal descendant of Ephraim. You are a Gentile that will be adopted into the House of Israel if you make it. I will take Christ's word over any modern day prophet. They cannot change what Christ stated in 3 Nephi 21. Read it and then explain what you get from it. According to Christ in 3 Nephi 21 we are only in the beginning stages of the gathering. The first sign is given already. The Gentiles, us have the BOM and are giving in to the Lamanites. The Lamanites are beginning to understand who they are and where they come from. The next sign is versus 9-11 which hasn't happened yet. Please explain 3 Nephi 21

[Deborah]

You are not a literal descendant of Ephraim.

My patriarch must not have been inspired then when he gave me my Patriarchal blessing.

[brightpath]

My patriarch must not have been inspired then when he gave me my Patriarchal blessing.

Nope I'm afraid not. You will be adopted though into Israel if you make it.

[brightpath]

3 Nephi 21 anyone? Christ gives us the signs of the gathering here. We are in the beginning stages here.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 Nephi 21 anyone? Christ gives us the signs of the gathering here. We are in the beginning stages here.

III Nephi 21 and the Title Page of the Book of Mormon are good scriptures, but they are not the only available scriptures on the Gathering of Israel. It is helpful to consider a broad range of references to such matters, even though that will not guarantee a correct interpretation. For, no matter how carefully and comprehensively one reads, "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" (II Peter 1:20), but must be interpreted in the same way it was given -- via the Holy Spirit (1:21), or via living prophets. Otherwise, one is doomed to the circular method of interpreting scripture with scripture, which leads only to rampant schism and denominationalism.

You might want to have a look at Jacob 5 (and its interpretation in Jacob 6), and perhaps at St Paul's words in Romans 11, which includes another helpful perspective on Jacob 5 (see Romans 11:16-25).

Finally, you may want to consider D&C 45:48-53 vis-a-vis Zechariah 13:6 and 14:4, in which the Lord returns, descends to the Mount of Olives and shows the wounds in his hands and feet to the Jews, who are surprised to learn that Jesus is the Messiah.

The Gathering of Israel is a huge enterprise, many millions are involved in a variety of ways. Don't forget, however, that Apostle Orson Hyde was sent by Joseph Smith to Palestine to dedicate that land to the Gathering of the Jews (his 1841 dedicatory prayer is now on a plaque on the Mount of Olives in both English and Hebrew).

[Deborah]

Nope I'm afraid not. You will be adopted though into Israel if you make it.

Wow you are a prophet and can declare with certainty that a church Patriarch is not inspired. Sorry, but the words are pretty straightforward.

[LDS Guy 1986]

You are not a literal descendant of Ephraim.

I never though I would see the day that I would agree with brightpath but today is the day.

A Patriarchal Blessing does not declare a literal heritage, we accept that unless we have Jewish ancestors that we are adopted into the Tribe of Israel that we are declared to be from in our Patriarchal Blessing.

Now this make no difference, blood descendant, adopted into the Tribe, Blood descendants receive no more blessing nor do adopted descendants receive any less blessing. Both are children of Abraham and receive the full blessings they are entitled to IF they are worthy for these blessings.

The declaration in the blessing though is not necessarily a literal linage though, it is assumed to be adopted unless otherwise stated so.

I have heard stories of people being declared literal descendants in there blessing and later finding out that lo and behold they have Jewish ancestors, but just because your linage is declared doesn't mean that you are a blood descendant. Linage is mostly through being adopted into the Tribes you are declared to be part of, in most cases the Tribe of Ephraim.

The problem is racists like brightpath like to think that just because someone doesn't have Jewish blood (or pure blood as he like to say) that they are somehow less important than literal descendants. This is not correct though, Abraham loves all his descendants blood or adopted, just like God loves all his chosen people whether through blood or adoption into the covenant.

We are all equal in God's eyes, and all he cares about is our hearts, not the tribe of Israel or the bloodline we come from.

[Deborah]

I never though I would see the day that I would agree with brightpath but today is the day.

I was not born in the church and yet my blessing says I came to this life as a literal descendant of Ephraim. I am not the only one. I do understand many will be adopted into the house of Israel, but many others are literal descendants. Ephraim was scattered among all the nations, something brightpath isn't comprehending when he/she talks about the gathering. I also understand many of us may have mixed bloodline lineages, but the lineage expressed in our blessings is the predominant one as far as our callings on earth and in eternity.

[volgadon]

A Patriarchal Blessing does not declare a literal heritage,

Actually, they can.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I was not born in the church and yet my blessing says I came to this life as a literal descendant of Ephraim. I am not the only one. I do understand many will be adopted into the house of Israel, but many others are literal descendants. Ephraim was scattered among all the nations, something brightpath isn't comprehending when he/she talks about the gathering. I also understand many of us may have mixed bloodline lineages, but the lineage expressed in our blessings is the predominant one as far as our callings on earth and in eternity.

I said that if it says you are a literal descendant that is fine, but the unless specifically stated so a patriarchal blessing is an adopted linage not a literal linage.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Actually, they can.

Can doesn't mean it does, as I explained clearly.

[Robert F. Smith]

A Patriarchal Blessing does not declare a literal heritage, we accept that unless we have Jewish ancestors that we are adopted into the Tribe of Israel that we are declared to be from in our Patriarchal Blessing.

You don't even know that "Jew" (Hebrew Yehudi) means a member of the Tribe of Judah (Hebrew Yehuda), and you presume to lecture someone about Patriarchal blessings?

[brightpath]

My question again please explain 3 Nephi 21. Nobody has yet, in detail. Stop with other references please, focus on the scripture in question. This is Christ himself talking to Israel and telling them of the signs to look for. What Christ says can't be changed by anyone, not even Monson. The gathering is in the beginning stages. The first sign is already happening. The BOM is and has been given to the Lamanites. They are finding out who they really are, and their bright future. The second sign has not happened yet but will in the near future. A prophet from the seed of Lehi will appear and convince the Lamanites who they really are and then cut off the unbelieving Gentiles. The third sign is the Lamanites will build the New Jerusalem(Zion) with the adopted Gentiles assisting. Then the 10 Lost Tribes will come from the north, the city of Enoch will come down from heaven and Christ will appear. Salt lake City is not Zion, the 10 tribes are not being gathered.

[Bikeemikey]

Yesterday, What you didn't get the memo in Sacrament today?

[brightpath]

I was not born in the church and yet my blessing says I came to this life as a literal descendant of Ephraim. I am not the only one. I do understand many will be adopted into the house of Israel, but many others are literal descendants. Ephraim was scattered among all the nations, something brightpath isn't comprehending when he/she talks about the gathering. I also understand many of us may have mixed bloodline lineages, but the lineage expressed in our blessings is the predominant one as far as our callings on earth and in eternity.

Ephraim was not scattered. They were led away with the 10 tribes. The only scattered tribes are Joseph(Lamanites) and Judah(Jews). The 10 tribes will come from the north when the New Jerusalem is built. A blessing cannot proclaim something you are not. Read 3 Nephi 21 and the title page of the BOM. If you are not a Lamanite of Jew, you are a Gentile that will be adopted into Israel. 3 Nephi 21 Anyone?

[Robert F. Smith]

Ephraim was not scattered. They were led away with the 10 tribes. The only scattered tribes are Joseph(Lamanites) and Judah(Jews). The 10 tribes will come from the north when the New Jerusalem is built. A blessing cannot proclaim something you are not. Read 3 Nephi 21 and the title page of the BOM. If you are not a Lamanite of Jew, you are a Gentile that will be adopted into Israel. 3 Nephi 21 Anyone?

Your interpretation of the Book of Mormon title page is deeply flawed, and you have ignored the ideas of those responding directly to your claims. This is a dialogue and discussion board, which assumes that you are in fact prepared to discuss points of view which may not always agree with yours, rather than simply repeating one dogmatic line over and over again.

The title page was written for certain specific purposes which do not pretend to cover every earthly event in the future. Just because it says that it is "written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to the Jew and Gentile," does not mean that there are not other types of people in the world. It doesn't even tell us who the Lamanites are, except that they are "a remnant of the house of Israel.". You suggested above that they are the American Indians, but the title page says no such thing. So a great deal rides on what sort of fundamental assumptions you bring to the text.

Certainly the Lamanites constitute only a small fraction of the tribe of Manasseh, and the main tribe of Manasseh was taken away by the Assyrians (along with the bulk of the ten tribes) a century before the birth of Lehi -- who was presumably the descendant of a Manassite refugee family. There were many refugees from the northern kingdom of Israel who fled to Judah, before they were then taken to Babylon over a hundred years later.

The title page makes an effort to let that remainder of the house of Israel know "that they are not cast off forever," which means (to those who read all Scripture) that they will eventually be gathered. I described in detail how some of that would take place, but you pointedly ignored that and the scriptures I cited. Real, sincere discussion involves some give and take. Are you prepared for a real discussion? Should we ever take scripture out of context?

In III Nephi 16, Jesus speaks about "other sheep" to whom he must go. Who are they? He also speaks of the gathering of Israel, and of the fulfillment of Isaiah 52:8-10. Since that chapter comes before chapter 21, does that mean that it takes place first? Is all scripture exclusive and sequential in nature?

[zerinus]

So you would take Nelson and Hollands words over what Christ said to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 21. There is only 1 New Jerusalem and only one Zion and it is not in the Rocky Mountains. They are both contradicting what Christ taught.

3 Nephi 21 sequence of events according to Christ.

1) The BOM will be brought to the Lamanites from the Gentiles

2) The Lamanites will know who they are.

3) A prophet will come from the seed of Joseph.

4) He will convince the Lamanites who they really are.

5) He will cut off the Gentiles and lead the Lamanites unto salvation.

6) The seed of Joseph will build the New Jerusalem and the Gentiles will assist.

7) Zion will be established and Christ, 10 tribes and the city of Enoch will come down and everyone will be gathered.

You are reading the wrong thing into 3 Nephi 21. That chapter condenses a large timespan into a very short space. The highlights are these verses:

3 Nephi 21

:

1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be

about

to take place

[Deborah]

Ephraim was not scattered.

It's pointless to discuss further since you won't respond to any of the multitude of articles and points which have been given. Keep on living in your narrow little world if it makes you happy.

[brightpath]

Your interpretation of the Book of Mormon title page is deeply flawed, and you have ignored the ideas of those responding directly to your claims. This is a dialogue and discussion board, which assumes that you are in fact prepared to discuss points of view which may not always agree with yours, rather than simply repeating one dogmatic line over and over again.

The title page was written for certain specific purposes which do not pretend to cover every earthly event in the future. Just because it says that it is "written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to the Jew and Gentile," does not mean that there are not other types of people in the world. It doesn't even tell us who the Lamanites are, except that they are "a remnant of the house of Israel.". You suggested above that they are the American Indians, but the title page says no such thing. So a great deal rides on what sort of fundamental assumptions you bring to the text.

Certainly the Lamanites constitute only a small fraction of the tribe of Manasseh, and the main tribe of Manasseh was taken away by the Assyrians (along with the bulk of the ten tribes) a century before the birth of Lehi -- who was presumably the descendant of a Manassite refugee family. There were many refugees from the northern kingdom of Israel who fled to Judah, before they were then taken to Babylon over a hundred years later.

The title page makes an effort to let that remainder of the house of Israel know "that they are not cast off forever," which means (to those who read all Scripture) that they will eventually be gathered. I described in detail how some of that would take place, but you pointedly ignored that and the scriptures I cited. Real, sincere discussion involves some give and take. Are you prepared for a real discussion? Should we ever take scripture out of context?

In III Nephi 16, Jesus speaks about "other sheep" to whom he must go. Who are they? He also speaks of the gathering of Israel, and of the fulfillment of Isaiah 52:8-10. Since that chapter comes before chapter 21, does that mean that it takes place first? Is all scripture exclusive and sequential in nature?

God is all knowing. He knows the future. I think He knew what he was revealing to Moroni when he gave him the title page. The sole purpose of the BOM was to let the Lamanites know who they really are in the last days. Read the title page again with real intent. Read Enos, read 3 Nephi 21. Then read the promise(Moroni 10) at the end and see who the promise was really written to! The Lamanites are a branch to be broken off to preserve Joseph's seed. You state that Lehi was presumably from Manasseh. Please read Alma 10. The BOM is the record of Joseph. If Lehi was not from the Tribe of Joseph(Manasseh) then what tribe was he from? Why do you claim Manasseh was taken and Ephraim wasn't? All church members say they are from Ephraim. Your logic of Manasseh can be applied to Ephraim as well. Many Ephraimites were killed and scattered as well. The majority of Ephraim went with the 10 tribes that were led away. You want a real discussion on the gathering of Israel? Lets stick with the BOM then, which is the most accurate of all the scriptures. No bible, no D&C, and certainly no quotes from modern day prophets because they contradict the BOM and what Christ taught. In 3rd Nephi 16 the other sheep that Christ is referring to is the 10 tribes. In Nephi chapter 20 he quotes Isaiah then in 3 Nephi 21 Christ clarifies it to the seed of Joseph. God knows everything. In the title page of the BOM he addresses all people. First the Lamanites(Joseph), then the Jews(Judah), and lastly the Gentiles(the rest of the world). So if you are not a Lamanite or a Jew, you are a Gentile. If the 10 tribes were present and scattered throughout the earth, God would have addressed them as well. He did not because they are not scattered among the earth. The 10 tribes were led away with Ephraim at its head and are awaiting their time to be gathered along with the Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the righteous Gentiles that will be adopted into Israel.

[brightpath]

You are reading the wrong thing into 3 Nephi 21. That chapter condenses a large timespan into a very short space. The highlights are these verses:

3 Nephi 21

:

1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be

about

to take place�that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign�for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;

3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;

* * *

7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things�it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already

commenced

unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

* * *

26 And then shall the work of the Father

commence

at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father

commence

among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

27 Yea, the work shall

commence

among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to

prepare the way

whereby they may

come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name

.

28 Yea, and then shall the work

commence,

with the Father among all nations in

preparing the way

whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.

The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a sign that the work of the Father has commenced in preparing the way for the gathering and restoration of the House of Israel. That process is a lengthy and gradual one, spanning over a few centuries, and begins with the conversion of them to the true gospel, so that they may "come unto [Him]," and "call on the Father in [His] name". That is the start of the process; and the rest will take two or three centuries to be completed. So yes, their conversion is part of the "gathering" process. It is a spiritual gathering, culminating eventually in a physical gathering (in the distant future).

Yes, the BOM came by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith) and was and is being given to the Lamanite. This is the first sign given by Christ to the seed of Joseph. You left out the most important versus of the Chapter. It gives us the sequence of events to take place. The next sign is versus 9-11. A prophet from the seed of Joseph will appear to lead the seed of Joseph unto salvation.

[Sevenbak]

I think He knew what he was revealing to Moroni when he gave him the title page. The sole purpose of the BOM was to let the Lamanites know who they really are in the last days. Read the title page again with real intent.

I did, and I found some more reasons the Book of Mormon was written, other than the "sole purpose" you gave.

Here it is. I've highlighted a couple that are pretty darned important too.

An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

[brightpath]

It's pointless to discuss further since you won't respond to any of the multitude of articles and points which have been given. Keep on living in your narrow little world if it makes you happy.

Please don't give me multiple articles. Give me scriptures from the BOM. The most correct book of all the scriptures.

[brightpath]

I did, and I found some more reasons the Book of Mormon was written, other than the "sole purpose" you gave.

Here it is. I've highlighted a couple that are pretty darned important too.

An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Good job! God did write the BOM to all people, specifically the Lamanites! Also to the Jew(Judah) and Gentile(the rest of the world). Notice the order God instructed Moroni to put it. Now read the promise at the end of the BOM and find out who the promise was really written to! Moroni wrote it to the Lamanites which consists of versus 1-23. Then in verse 24 he addresses the rest of the world. The Lamanites are the remnant of Jacob and the seed of Joseph. The BOM is their record! nobody else can claim that.

[LeSellers]

Give me scriptures from the BOM. The most correct book of all the scriptures.

CFR that the Book of Mormon is "[t]he most correct book of all the scriptures."

Please be sure to consider context, including chronology, in your response. You will recall, of course, that in 1841, there was no Doctrine and Covenants, no Pearl of Great Price.

You might also reflect on the oft-repeated warning that there are actual errors in the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon text itself, including your favorite passage of all: the Title Page.

I suggest that your hobby horse has no legs, and that it's off its rocker.

Lehi

[Calm]

2nd Nephi 29:

11For I command ^aall men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall ^bwrite the words which I speak unto them; for out of the ^cbooks which shall be written I will ^djudge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. 12For behold, I shall speak unto the ^aJews and they shall ^bwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall ^cwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto ^dall nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13And it shall come to pass that the ^aJews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the ^blost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the ^ahouse of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the ^blands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in ^cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my ^dpeople, who are of the ^ehouse of Israel, that I am God, and that I ^fcovenanted with ^gAbraham that I would remember his ^hseed ⁱforever.

Brightpath:

The 10 tribes were led away with Ephraim at its head and are awaiting their time to be gathered along with the Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the righteous Gentiles that will be adopted into Israel.

From where will they be gathered? From the above scriptures, it would seem that they are somewhere in this world.