The Gathering of Israel

[brightpath]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

[CV75]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

It happens on many levels and in many ways, before during and after the Second Coming: spiritually through the missionary effort and church growth, the establishment of stakes and temples, church meetings; physically-speaking some might say in the land of Israel, and eventually in other appointed areas (at least Jerusalem and New Jerusalem) and into an inheritance by tribe. But not just one geographic location at one time.

[erichard]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

Hi Brightpath,

AoF 10 says:

We believe in the

LITERAL

gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

This mentions the gathering of Israel and the restoration of the Ten Tribes BEFORE it mentions Zion. Zion is "political Israel" in one major usage of the word. How can the tribes of Israel have a government before they are organized into a people?

John the Baptist in his day (according to the Prophet Joseph) turned the keys against Judah and Israel and brought in the times of the Gentiles. But 3 Nephi 16:7-13 speaks of a latter-day SHIFT by the Lord against the Gentiles in favor of His ancient covenant people Israel. And of course, the Bible has many promises of this latter-day restoration of the tribes of Israel and their former blessings:

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel

will gather him

, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. --Jer 31:10

For Israel to be literally gathered they first must be identified. Patriarchal blessings seem to be necessary to fulfill that fact. But since the Lord does nothing save He reveals His secrets unto His servants the prophets, one would expect the Word of the Lord will come forth to truly identify and gather Israel into tribes in the last days.

Richard

[brightpath]

Hi Brightpath,

AoF 10 says:

We believe in the

LITERAL

gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

This mentions the gathering of Israel and the restoration of the Ten Tribes BEFORE it mentions Zion. Zion is "political Israel" in one major usage of the word. How can the tribes of Israel have a government before they are organized into a people?

John the Baptist in his day (according to the Prophet Joseph) turned the keys against Judah and Israel and brought in the times of the Gentiles. But 3 Nephi 16:7-13 speaks of a latter-day SHIFT by the Lord against the Gentiles in favor of His ancient covenant people Israel. And of course, the Bible has many promises of this latter-day restoration of the tribes of Israel and their former blessings:

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel

will gather him

, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. --Jer 31:10

For Israel to be literally gathered they first must be identified. Patriarchal blessings seem to be necessary to fulfill that fact. But since the Lord does nothing save He reveals His secrets unto His servants the prophets, one would expect the Word of the Lord will come forth to truly identify and gather Israel into tribes in the last days.

Richard

Thanks for the feedback but according to Christ, now remember this isn't a modern day prophet or ancient prophet speaking. This is Jesus Christ himself talking to Israel. In 3 Nephi 21 Christ teaches Israel the sign to look for and the sequence of events that will happen. First, the BOM will come forth to the Lamanites from the Gentiles and they will begin to know who they are. Then a Prophet from the seed of Joseph will appear and cut off the Gentiles and lead them to salvation. Next the Gentiles will assisted the Lamanites in building the New Jerusalem(Zion). After this is done The lost 10 tribes will come, the City of Enoch will come down from Heaven, and Christ will appear. Patriarchal Blessings have nothing to do with the gathering of Israel and Israel is Identified already. If you read the title page of the BOM it tells us who Israel is. The BOM was written to the Lamanites(Tribe of Joseph), and also to Jew(Tribe of Judah), and Gentile(rest of the world). So if you are not a Lamanite or Jew, you are a Gentile.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

This would be the bulk of the lost tribes that come in from the North

[thesometimesaint]

brightpath:

Jews are but ONE of the tribes of Israel. IIRC most members of the Church are from the House of Ephraim.

[jadams_4242]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

oh its taking place right now; the final "commencement" wont be complete until then, but you can bet your booties its happening right now all over the world...all one has to do is study up on the twelve tribes, the blessings given to joseph, ephraim e;t;c... things become very obvious when we put them in perspective.

[brightpath]

oh its taking place right now; the final "commencement" wont be complete until then, but you can bet your booties its happening right now all over the world...all one has to do is study up on the twelve tribes, the blessings given to joseph, ephraim e;t;c... things become very obvious when we put them in perspective.

Please read and explain what Christ is teaching us in 3 Nephi 21 then. The Ephraimites are with the lost 10 tribes that were led away. They will come from the north along with the lost tribes.

[Deborah]

Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established.

Zion, or New Jerusalem, is established, currently in the Rocky Mountains and per prophetic utterance wherever the stakes of Zion are gathered.

[Deborah]

from Jeffrey R. Holland, "A Promised Land", Ensign, June 1976, 23

Thus in one final moment worthy men and righteous principles came together for the restoration of heavenly things. With his center stake in America, God began stretching the cords of his tabernacle to all the world, lengthening the habitation of Israel and establishing Zion wherever the pure in heart dwell. When that great global mission is complete and the angels declare

[jadams_4242]

Please read and explain what Christ is teaching us in 3 Nephi 21 then. The Ephraimites are with the lost 10 tribes that were led away. They will come from the north along with the lost tribes.

I understand that to have allready occured; it is in the final stages now which includes gentiles and all bloodlines... how can anybody trace the excat path of the ten tribes over the millenia without either a whole lot of d.n.a testing. or patriartical blessings? or both..

[brightpath]

from Jeffrey R. Holland, "A Promised Land", Ensign, June 1976, 23

Also from Russell M. Nelson, "The Gathering of Scattered Israel", Liahona, Nov. 2006, 79

[brightpath]

I understand that to have allready occured; it is in the final stages now which includes gentiles and all bloodlines... how can anybody trace the excat path of the ten tribes over the millenia without either a whole lot of d.n.a testing. or patriartical blessings? or both..

All you have to do is read the title page of the BOM to understand who Israel is. Written the the Lamanites(Joseph) and also to Jew(Judah) and Gentile(rest of the world). The 10 tribes were led away by God. If they were present then God would have included them in the title page.

[Deborah]

So you would take Nelson and Hollands words over what Christ said to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 21.

Elder Nelson and Holland and other Apostles are the mouthpiece of Christ on earth today. They are ordained prophets and apostles. What is in error is your interpretation of these scriptures, which is very naive and literal. There is nothing in those scriptures which contradicts what Elders Nelson and Holland said if you look at them with an open mind and a bigger picture.

[brightpath]

Elder Nelson and Holland and other Apostles are the mouthpiece of Christ on earth today. They are ordained prophets and apostles. What is in error is your interpretation of these scriptures, which is very naive and literal. There is nothing in those scriptures which contradicts what Elders Nelson and Holland said if you look at them with an open mind and a bigger picture.

Please read 3 Nephi 21. They are absolutely contradicting what Christ taught to the Nephites. The biggest error is Zion being established. Zion is not Salt Lake City. Zion is the New Jerusalem to be built by the seed of Joseph with the adopted Gentiles assisting. This certainly has not happened yet.

[jadams_4242]

All you have to do is read the title page of the BOM to understand who Israel is. Written the the Lamanites(Joseph) and also to Jew(Judah) and Gentile(rest of the world). The 10 tribes were led away by God. If they were present then God would have included them in the title page.

yes you are correct; "laminites", judah", and "the rest of the world...

[Bikeemikey]

Hasn't Israel been gathered enough. Does it need more gathering?

[SkepticTheist]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

If we take the scriptures seriously, and Israel is dispersed, and practically everyone that lives now has some sort of relation to people that lived thousands of years ago through migrations and so on, as we are told by geneticists, I fail to see how we are not all Israel in some shape or fashion. So how is it that the Church is not gathering Israel? Modern literal Israel is everyone on the planet. Spiritual Israel is anyone on the planet that has some drop of Israel in his veins (as all do) that obeys the promptings of the Spirit. Therefore, in gathering Israel, it is whoever gets baptized. And by more and more of these righteous bloodlines coming together in marriage, whatever drops of Israel's blood in their veins that mingles with others becomes more and more strengthened over the generations. So I say, yes, it is a rational statement that modern Israel is being gathered.

Ed Goble

[erichard]

Please read 3 Nephi 21. They are absolutely contradicting what Christ taught to the Nephites. The biggest error is Zion being established. Zion is not Salt Lake City. Zion is the New Jerusalem to be built by the seed of Joseph with the adopted Gentiles assisting. This certainly has not happened yet.

Hi brightpath,

The fact that Ten Tribes are still gathered as "Tribes of Israel" in the "land of the North" and are not known among us does not mean there are not others who descend from the Ten Tribes among the nations.

It was prophesied that Israel would be scattered among all nations:

Wherefore, the things of which I have read are things pertaining to things both temporal and spiritual; for it appears that the house of Israel, sooner or later, will be scattered upon all the face of the earth, and also among all nations. 1 Nephi 22:3

When Israel was scattered among the nations as the prophecy above says, they were no longer "Israel". To become Israel again they have to recognize who they are and gather to Zion and be accepted into the tribe from which they racially should belong.

I am convinced that the Lord will gather the most intelligent, beautiful, honest, skilled, trustworthy-- the most advanced and perfected people in every way to His Zion. It will be a civilization greater than anything seen before. It will not be backward or superstitious or unlearned in any way. The science and technology of today will be like toys in the upcoming age governed by Zion and its laws.

And the gathering to Zion will be from ALL nations:

And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy. --D&C 45:71

It will be a society completely wise in the ways of the adversary. The efforts by warmongers and also by "men in grey suits" to demonize the enemy, or have false flag operations, or Gulf of Tonkin incidents, or endless other efforts to JUSTIFY WAR will all end. Read Isaiah 2:2-4

My father worked as a hydraulic engineer for the Navajo Tribe for many years, engineering water systems for places on their reservation. He was raised in the church and had heard from some members that the "Indians" would someday assume the leadership of the Lord's work on earth. But his working with Navajos completely convinced him that would never happen, if he ever thought otherwise.

I do not have all the answers, but I remain convinced that your simple understanding of who is Israel and who is Gentile is not the full story.

Richard

[brightpath]

Hi brightpath,

The fact that Ten Tribes are still gathered as "Tribes of Israel" in the "land of the North" and are not known among us does not mean there are not others who descend from the Ten Tribes among the nations.

It was prophesied that Israel would be scattered among all nations:

When Israel was scattered among the nations as the prophecy above says, they were no longer "Israel". To become Israel again they have to recognize who they are and gather to Zion and be accepted into the tribe from which they racially should belong.

I am convinced that the Lord will gather the most intelligent, beautiful, honest, skilled, trustworthy-- the most advanced and perfected people in every way to His Zion. It will be a civilization greater than anything seen before. It will not be backward or superstitious or unlearned in any way. The science and technology of today will be like toys in the upcoming age governed by Zion and its laws.

And the gathering to Zion will be from ALL nations:

It will be a society completely wise in the ways of the adversary. The efforts by warmongers and also by "men in grey suits" to demonize the enemy, or have false flag operations, or Gulf of Tonkin incidents, or endless other efforts to JUSTIFY WAR will all end. Read Isaiah 2:2-4

My father worked as a hydraulic engineer for the Navajo Tribe for many years, engineering water systems for places on their reservation. He was raised in the church and had heard from some members that the "Indians" would someday assume the leadership of the Lord's work on earth. But his working with Navajos completely convinced him that would never happen, if he ever thought otherwise.

I do not have all the answers, but I remain convinced that your simple understanding of who is Israel and who is Gentile is not the full story.

Richard

The church complicates who Israel is. God enlightens us who Israel is in the title page of the BOM. "Written to the Lamanites(American Indian-Joseph) who are a remnant of the House of Israel, and also to Jew(Judah) and Gentile(rest of the world). So if you are not a Jew or Lamanite you are a Gentile. Gentiles that make it will be adopted into the House of Israel. The title page is very clear on this. Now lets read 3 Nephi 21. The majority of the 10 tribes were led away by God, I say majority because there were some small pockets here and there but there blood was washed out after mixing with the Gentiles over the years. God knew this too thats why he says there are only 3 groups of people on earth. The scattered Israelites are the tribes of Joseph and Judah.

[LeSellers]

God enlightens us who Israel is in the title page of the BOM.

You've made essentially the same statement many times and have convinced (virtually) no one. You may want to try a different approach because this one is not succeeding.

"Written to the Lamanites(American Indian-Joseph) who are a remnant of the House of Israel, and also to Jew(Judah) and Gentile(rest of the world). [My emphasis]

Please note the wording is "... the Lamanites who are a remnant of the House of Israel". "A remnant" strongly implies there are others.

So if you are not a Jew or Lamanite you are a Gentile.

Only if there were but one remnant of Israel. But, as your (discredited) proof text plainly says: the Lamanites are but one remnant, not the entirety of all possible remnants.

Gentiles that make it will be adopted into the House of Israel.

This is true, but irrelevant.

The title page is very clear on this.

Not nearly as clear as you pretend it to be.

Now lets read 3 Nephi 21. The majority of the 10 tribes were led away by God,...

Quite true, but that happened in the vii, long before Lehi left Jerusalem in the vi. It is only logical to see there would be far more Manassens and Ephraimites among those carried away earlier than there could have been among the dozen or so who accompanied Nephi and Jacob to the Americas. Even this ignores the millions among the other eight tribes (Benjamin being politically absorbed into Judah

[brightpath]

You've made essentially the same statement many times and have convinced (virtually) no one. You may want to try a different approach because this one is not succeeding.

Anyone that knows the scriptures can grasp this concept. Apparently not you.

Please note the wording is "... the Lamanites who are a remnant of the House of Israel". "A remnant" strongly implies there are others.

Yes, the others refers to, the other 11 tribes of Israel, that is why the Lamanites are a remnant of Jacob.

Quite true, but that happened in the vii, long before Lehi left Jerusalem in the vi. It is only logical to see there would be far more Manassens and Ephraimites among those carried away earlier than there could have been among the dozen or so who accompanied Nephi and Jacob to the Americas. Even this ignores the millions among the other eight tribes (Benjamin being politically absorbed into Judah

[LeSellers]

... why do we believe in the literal gathering of Israel and that they will be assembled? If there are no Issacharites, no Reubenites, no Gaddites, why bother mentioning a gathering of the Ten Tribes (along with Judah/Benjamin)?

Because they were led away and their time will come when the times of the Gentiles ends.

You seem to forget that the Restoration is the gathering of Israel.

Yes, Gad will be gathered along with all the other tribes. But the Lord is gathering Ephraim (and Manasseh) first because, by birthright, Joseph is the leader of Israel. We might say that Joseph is the Elias of the Restoration, we are preparing the way for the return of the rest of Israel.

You answered the one question in my earlier message, but ignored the rest. I'd be interested in seeing your responses to those, as well.

Lehi

[brightpath]

You seem to forget that the Restoration is the gathering of Israel.

Yes, Gad will be gathered along with all the other tribes. But the Lord is gathering Ephraim (and Manasseh) first because, by birthright, Joseph is the leader of Israel. We might say that Joseph is the Elias of the Restoration, we are preparing the way for the return of the rest of Israel.

You answered the one question in my earlier message, but ignored the rest. I'd be interested in seeing your responses to those, as well.

Lehi

Read 3 Nephi 21 please. This will tell you about the gathering from Christ's own lips. The first sign is already happening. The Lamanites are receiving the BOM from the Gentiles and finding out who they truly are. This is where we are at the present moment. The next sign is versus 9-11. A prophet from the seed of Joseph will appear and will conivince the Lamanites who they are and cut off the Gentiles. This will happen next according to Christ and this is the next sign. Later on the remnant of Joseph will build the New Jerusalem. establish Zion and then the gathering will take place. You are jumping the gun way to early. Now you claim you are Ephraim right? Are you a literal descendant(Jewish) or adopted?

[LeSellers]

Why is the church teaching the gathering is happening right now? They teach the missionaries are gathering lost Israel. If we read in the BOM 3 Nephi 21 Christ's tells us the gathering of Israel won't happen until Zion(New Jerusalem) is established. Christ gives us a sequence of events that will happen first before the gathering. Thoughts?

I perceive a gospel hobby horse in the stall.

Read 3 Nephi 21 please. This will tell you about the gathering from Christ's own lips. The first sign is already happening. The Lamanites are receiving the BOM from the Gentiles and finding out who they truly are. This is where we are at the present moment. The next sign is versus 9-11. A prophet from the seed of Joseph will appear and will conivince the Lamanites who they are and cut off the Gentiles. This will happen next according to Christ and this is the next sign. Later on the remnant of Joseph will build the New Jerusalem. establish Zion and then the gathering will take place. You are jumping the gun way to early. Now you claim you are Ephraim right? Are you a literal descendant(Jewish) or adopted?

I am a literal descendant of Ephraim.

You seem to ignore all the words of prophets from Joseph Smith to Thomas S. Monson on the subject. Of the two groups, I prefer prophets. They seem to get it right more often than "experts".

Lehi