The Gathering of Israel

[brightpath]

CFR that the Book of Mormon is "[t]he most correct book of all the scriptures."

Please be sure to consider context, including chronology, in your response. You will recall, of course, that in 1841, there was no Doctrine and Covenants, no Pearl of Great Price.

You might also reflect on the oft-repeated warning that there are actual errors in the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon text itself, including your favorite passage of all: the Title Page.

I suggest that your hobby horse has no legs, and that it's off its rocker.

Lehi

Before I comment on this tell me your stance with the church so I know how to direct my answer to you.

[brightpath]

2nd Nephi 29:

Brightpath:

From where will they be gathered? From the above scriptures, it would seem that they are somewhere in this world.

Great scripture! The Jews(Judah-Bible) shall have the words of the Nephites(Joseph-BOM) and they both will have the words of the lost tribes(this is yet to come). If the lost tribes are scattered among the earth then where are their prophets and scriptures? When they all gather and meet at Zion(New Jerusalem) they will have each others scriptures. The lost tribes will come from the north with their prophets and scriptures. Joseph will be gathered in America and Judah will gather in Jerusalem.

[LeSellers]

Before I comment on this tell me your stance with the church so I know how to direct my answer to you.

I answer the Temple Recommend questions honestly and hold a current recommend.

I don't know how else to respond to this vacuous inquiry. I could list the callings I hold and have held recently, but what business is it of yours?

Lehi

[Deborah]

Before I comment on this tell me your stance with the church so I know how to direct my answer to you.

So the answer changes depending on who you are talking to?

[brightpath]

I answer the Temple Recommend questions honestly and hold a current recommend.

I don't know how else to respond to this vacuous inquiry. I could list the callings I hold and have held recently, but what business is it of yours?

Lehi

Then you would agree that Joseph Smith translated correctly the BOM despite the many changes. Furthermore JS commented that the BOM was the most correct book of all the scriptures and a man would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts. From the comment you made earlier it sounded like you didn't believe in the BOM or have a testimony of it. The Book of Mormon is the most correct book of all scriptures.

[brightpath]

So the answer changes depending on who you are talking to?

Common sense Deb, the answer doesn't change the conversation does. How can you talk to someone about this subject if they don't believe in the BOM

[Robert F. Smith]

The sole purpose of the BOM was to let the Lamanites know who they really are in the last days.

the promise(Moroni 10) at the end and see who the promise was really written to! The Lamanites are a branch to be broken off to preserve Joseph's seed.

You state that Lehi was presumably from Manasseh. Please read Alma 10. The BOM is the record of Joseph. If Lehi was not from the Tribe of Joseph(Manasseh) then what tribe was he from?

Why do you claim Manasseh was taken and Ephraim wasn't?

All church members say they are from Ephraim. Your logic of Manasseh can be applied to Ephraim as well. Many Ephraimites were killed and scattered as well. The majority of Ephraim went with the 10 tribes that were led away. You want a real discussion on the gathering of Israel? Lets stick with the BOM then, which is the most accurate of all the scriptures.

No bible, no D&C, and certainly no quotes from modern day prophets because they contradict the BOM and what Christ taught.

In 3rd Nephi 16 the other sheep that Christ is referring to is the 10 tribes. In Nephi chapter 20 he quotes Isaiah then in 3 Nephi 21 Christ clarifies it to the seed of Joseph. God knows everything. In the title page of the BOM he addresses all people. First the Lamanites(Joseph), then the Jews(Judah), and lastly the Gentiles(the rest of the world). So if you are not a Lamanite or a Jew, you are a Gentile. If the 10 tribes were present and scattered throughout the earth, God would have addressed them as well. He did not because they are not scattered among the earth. The 10 tribes were led away with Ephraim at its head and are awaiting their time to be gathered along with the Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the righteous Gentiles that will be adopted into Israel.

I have highlighted a number of your false statements above:

Your most egregious error is to insist that Alma 10:3 does not make Lehi a descendant of Manasseh. That was his tribe. Joseph was divided into two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh.

I did not say that "Manasseh was taken and Ephraim wasn't." The ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom were take away by the Assyrians, although a few people escaped south into Judah -- including Lehi's ancestors. Now of course if you want to discuss Ezekiel 37 (stick of Joseph and stick of Judah), that might prove fruitful, but you claim not to like the Bible very much.

"All church members" do not "say they are from Ephraim." In various places in the world, LDS members receive patriarchal blessings designating their membership in other of the ten tribes (other than Ephraim). This is particularly true in Asia.

Another thing, you repeatedly insist that Joseph Smith Jr was a gentile. What do you make of II Nephi 3:6-9, 15-16, 24, and 25:21? Aren't Joseph Smith Sr and Jr literal descendants of Joseph who was sold into Egypt?

[brightpath]

I have highlighted a number of your false statements above:

Your most egregious error is to insist that Alma 10:3 does not make Lehi a descendant of Manasseh. That was his tribe. Joseph was divided into two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh.

I did not say that "Manasseh was taken and Ephraim wasn't." The ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom were take away by the Assyrians, although a few people escaped south into Judah -- including Lehi's ancestors. Now of course if you want to discuss Ezekiel 37 (stick of Joseph and stick of Judah), that might prove fruitful, but you claim not to like the Bible very much.

"All church members" do not "say they are from Ephraim." In various places in the world, LDS members receive patriarchal blessings designating their membership in other of the ten tribes (other than Ephraim). This is particularly true in Asia.

Another thing, you repeatedly insist that Joseph Smith Jr was a gentile. What do you make of II Nephi 3:6-9, 15-16, 24, and 25:21? Aren't Joseph Smith Sr and Jr literal descendants of Joseph who was sold into Egypt?

The BOM is the stick of Joseph. Lehi was from Joseph through Manasseh. True Ephraim is with the lost tribes that were led away and will come from the land of the north when Israel gathers. 2 Nephi 3 is not referring to Joseph Smith. It is a prophet to come from the seed of Joseph(Lamanites). The Smith family came from Europe as part of the Gentile invasion of America. The title page of the BOM states that the book will come by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith). The title page tells us what people are on earth. Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and Gentiles(the rest of the world). If Gentiles remain faithful then they will be adopted into Israel. What tribe are Asians claiming?

[Robert F. Smith]

The BOM is the stick of Joseph. Lehi was from Joseph through Manasseh. True Ephraim is with the lost tribes that were led away and will come from the land of the north when Israel gathers. 2 Nephi 3 is not referring to Joseph Smith. It is a prophet to come from the seed of Joseph(Lamanites). The Smith family came from Europe as part of the Gentile invasion of America. The title page of the BOM states that the book will come by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith). The title page tells us what people are on earth. Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and Gentiles(the rest of the world). If Gentiles remain faithful then they will be adopted into Israel. What tribe are Asians claiming?

Only a very small part of Manasseh is in this hemisphere, and not all Amerinds are descendants of Manasseh. The bulk of Manasseh and Ephraim were taken by the Assyrians and are two of the ten tribes which have yet to be gathered from the North. This will happen in the own due time of the Lord.

When Ezk 37 discusses the sticks of Ephraim and Judah, he is discussing all twelve tribes being represented and coming together in unity. Note that Ezk 37:16 specifies that the stick of Ephraim is "For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." That means all of the northern 10 tribes. For as verse 21 says: "Thus saith the Lord GOD: 'Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among he heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land'." That is, all 12 tribes will be gathered to the Holy Land which was promised unconditionally to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants.

LDS Patriarchal blessings in Asia (which includes large parts of the former Soviet Union as well as East Asia) cover the broadest possible range of tribal assignments from the 12 tribes.

[Robert F. Smith]

Since we are remembering the Atonement this week, let us remember also that it took place in Jerusalem, the center of the Gathering of the Jews, in honor of which here is a wonderful, evocative Israeli song about "Jerusalem of Gold."

[USU78]

Since we are remembering the Atonement this week, let us remember also that it took place in Jerusalem, the center of the Gathering of the Jews, in honor of which here is a wonderful, evocative Israeli song about "Jerusalem of Gold."

Thanks, RF! Have a blessed Pesach and Easter.

[brightpath]

Only a very small part of Manasseh is in this hemisphere, and not all Amerinds are descendants of Manasseh. The bulk of Manasseh and Ephraim were taken by the Assyrians and are two of the ten tribes which have yet to be gathered from the North. This will happen in the own due time of the Lord.

When Ezk 37 discusses the sticks of Ephraim and Judah, he is discussing all twelve tribes being represented and coming together in unity. Note that Ezk 37:16 specifies that the stick of Ephraim is "For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." That means all of the northern 10 tribes. For as verse 21 says: "Thus saith the Lord GOD: 'Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among he heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land'." That is, all 12 tribes will be gathered to the Holy Land which was promised unconditionally to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants.

LDS Patriarchal blessings in Asia (which includes large parts of the former Soviet Union as well as East Asia) cover the broadest possible range of tribal assignments from the 12 tribes.

All Native Americans are Lamanites in the Americas but I will play your game and say a small group are Lamanites(Manasseh). Regardless of peoples arguments on here about Lamanites they exist and are present in America. The stick of Joseph is the BOM. The stick of Judah is the bible. They will come together so all the tribes of Israel will have the records. The lost tribes will even have their own records and prophets as stated in 3 Nephi. If the 10 tribes are in Asia as you claim then where are their records and prophets? Christ said in 3 Nephi the 10 tribes will bring have their own scriptures and prophets. The 10 lost tribes will not gather in the Holy Land. They will be gathered at the New Jerusalem. Please read 3 Nephi 21. Christ told the seed of Joseph when the New Jerusalem is built then the city of Enoch would come down and the 10 tribes will return. This is why I don't like using the Bible too much, especially the old testament because it is open to many interpretations. The BOM is clear on this subject. The 10 tribes were led away and will come from the north.

As for 2 Nephi 3 which is Gen 50:26-36 this is not JS. Verse 5 is clear. Joseph in Egypt obtained a promise from the Lord that his seed should not perish. A righteous branch would be raised up(Lehi-Manasseh-Lamanites). A branch to be broken off(Lehi-Manasseh-Lamanites). Messiah shall be made manifest unto them(Lamanites) in the latter days. They(Lamanites) will be brought out of darkness unto light and out of captivity unto freedom. This isn't JS!. Verse 11 This seer will bring forth the word unto the seed of thy loins(seed of Joseph-Lamanites). Not only bringing forth the word but convincing them(Lamanites) of the word, which shall already gone forth among them(Lamanites). Joseph Smith did bring forth the word to the Lamanites or convince them of it. Also JS brought about the gospel(word) and the end of verse 11 states"which shall have already gone forth among them". This tells us the gospel will already be here when the seer comes. His job is to convince them(Lamanites) of it. Verse 14 states that the seer will be protected. JS died! Verse 23 Lehi tells his son his seed(Joseph-Manasseh-Lamanites) will not utterly be destroyed and they shall hearken unto the book(BOM). Verse 24 Lehi recaps what Joseph in Egypt prophesied and tells his son that"There shall rise up one mighty among them(Lamanites) and bring much restoration to the House of Israel and unto the seed of thy brethren(Lamanites). Is this talking about Joseph Smith too? I think not.

[Robert F. Smith]

All Native Americans are Lamanites in the Americas but I will play your game and say a small group are Lamanites(Manasseh). Regardless of peoples arguments on here about Lamanites they exist and are present in America. The stick of Joseph is the BOM. The stick of Judah is the bible. They will come together so all the tribes of Israel will have the records. The lost tribes will even have their own records and prophets as stated in 3 Nephi. If the 10 tribes are in Asia as you claim then where are their records and prophets? Christ said in 3 Nephi the 10 tribes will bring have their own scriptures and prophets. The 10 lost tribes will not gather in the Holy Land. They will be gathered at the New Jerusalem. Please read 3 Nephi 21. Christ told the seed of Joseph when the New Jerusalem is built then the city of Enoch would come down and the 10 tribes will return. This is why I don't like using the Bible too much, especially the old testament because it is open to many interpretations. The BOM is clear on this subject. The 10 tribes were led away and will come from the north.

As for 2 Nephi 3 which is Gen 50:26-36 this is not JS. Verse 5 is clear. Joseph in Egypt obtained a promise from the Lord that his seed should not perish. A righteous branch would be raised up(Lehi-Manasseh-Lamanites). A branch to be broken off(Lehi-Manasseh-Lamanites). Messiah shall be made manifest unto them(Lamanites) in the latter days. They(Lamanites) will be brought out of darkness unto light and out of captivity unto freedom. This isn't JS!. Verse 11 This seer will bring forth the word unto the seed of thy loins(seed of Joseph-Lamanites). Not only bringing forth the word but convincing them(Lamanites) of the word, which shall already gone forth among them(Lamanites). Joseph Smith did bring forth the word to the Lamanites or convince them of it. Also JS brought about the gospel(word) and the end of verse 11 states"which shall have already gone forth among them". This tells us the gospel will already be here when the seer comes. His job is to convince them(Lamanites) of it. Verse 14 states that the seer will be protected. JS died! Verse 23 Lehi tells his son his seed(Joseph-Manasseh-Lamanites) will not utterly be destroyed and they shall hearken unto the book(BOM). Verse 24 Lehi recaps what Joseph in Egypt prophesied and tells his son that"There shall rise up one mighty among them(Lamanites) and bring much restoration to the House of Israel and unto the seed of thy brethren(Lamanites). Is this talking about Joseph Smith too? I think not.

Earlier you told me that "The sole purpose of the BOM was to let the Lamanites know who they really are in the last days," and then you urged me to "Read the title page again with real intent." However, no matter how often I reread it, it still tells me that your "sole purpose" falls short. You overlook several fundamental purposes:

1. Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel;

2. and also to Jew and Gentile--

3. Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel, what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers;

4. and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever--

5. And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations--

Those are direct quotes, and they immediately falsify your claim of only one purpose.

I understand why you don't particularly like the OT. It falsifies your claims, even in the case of Ezekiel 37, which I quoted.

I did not claim that "the 10 tribes are in Asia," as you claim, but instead recounted for you the fact that patriarchal blessing in Asia and the Far East assign the full range of those ten tribes. For all I know, these may all be assignments by adoption. I am not privy to the mind of the Lord on such matters, and I do not know where the ten lost tribes are currently (III Nephi 17:4). However, there is no reason to believe that they will not be gathered to the State of Israel with the Jews. Take a look at I Nephi 10:14, II Nephi 29:12-14, III Nephi 15:15-17, 16:1-5,8-20, 20:46, 21:1-2,26-29. How is it that the Lord himself insists that Jerusalem shall "be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance"? (III Nephi 20:46)

[brightpath]

Earlier you told me that "The sole purpose of the BOM was to let the Lamanites know who they really are in the last days," and then you urged me to "Read the title page again with real intent." However, no matter how often I reread it, it still tells me that your "sole purpose" falls short. You overlook several fundamental purposes:

1. Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel;

2. and also to Jew and Gentile--

3. Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel, what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers;

4. and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever--

5. And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations--

Those are direct quotes, and they immediately falsify your claim of only one purpose.

I understand why you don't particularly like the OT. It falsifies your claims, even in the case of Ezekiel 37, which I quoted.

I did not claim that "the 10 tribes are in Asia," as you claim, but instead recounted for you the fact that patriarchal blessing in Asia and the Far East assign the full range of those ten tribes. For all I know, these may all be assignments by adoption. I am not privy to the mind of the Lord on such matters, and I do not know where the ten lost tribes are currently (III Nephi 17:4). However, there is no reason to believe that they will not be gathered to the State of Israel with the Jews. Take a look at I Nephi 10:14, II Nephi 29:12-14, III Nephi 15:15-17, 16:1-5,8-20, 20:46, 21:1-2,26-29. How is it that the Lord himself insists that Jerusalem shall "be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance"? (III Nephi 20:46)

The BOM starts with Written to the Lamantes and ends with Moroni's promise written to the Lamanites. How can this be disputed? The sole purpose of the BOM is to bring Israel(Lamanites) back into the fold as Enos prayed for. In 3 Nephi 21 Christ gives signs to them in the latter days and what to look out for. Especially their great prophet to come. This great prophet from their ranks will come and convince them of the truth then cut off the unbelieving Gentiles. The 10 tribes will onlycome when the New Jerusalem is built. Christ himself prophesies of this event.

[brightpath]

I did not claim that "the 10 tribes are in Asia," as you claim, but instead recounted for you the fact that patriarchal blessing in Asia and the Far East assign the full range of those ten tribes. For all I know, these may all be assignments by adoption. I am not privy to the mind of the Lord on such matters, and I do not know where the ten lost tribes are currently (III Nephi 17:4). However, there is no reason to believe that they will not be gathered to the State of Israel with the Jews. Take a look at I Nephi 10:14, II Nephi 29:12-14, III Nephi 15:15-17, 16:1-5,8-20, 20:46, 21:1-2,26-29. How is it that the Lord himself insists that Jerusalem shall "be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance"? (III Nephi 20:46)

The tribe of Judah(Jews) is gathering in the old world(State of Israel) and the tribe of Joseph(Lamanites) will gather in the New World. The 10 tribes will return from the north when the New Jerusalem is built. The Jews will have their 2 prophets raised up to them and thye will still not believe until Christ comes and Joseph(Lamanites) will have a prophet raised up to them. He will lead the Lamnaites unto salvation and cut off the unbelieving Gentiles. Read 3 Nephi 21 about this.

[brightpath]

The tribe of Judah(Jews) is gathering in the old world(State of Israel) and the tribe of Joseph(Lamanites) will gather in the New World. The 10 tribes will return from the north when the New Jerusalem is built. The Jews will have their 2 prophets raised up to them and thye will still not believe until Christ comes and Joseph(Lamanites) will have a prophet raised up to them. He will lead the Lamnaites unto salvation and cut off the unbelieving Gentiles. Read 3 Nephi 21 about this.

[Franktalk]

I believe that in the Bible there are many areas that speak of multiple things in the same verses. This leads to problems when one person takes one view and another person takes a different view. In my mind they both may be correct. Take the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation. I believe the letters are for each of us as each letter describes the various ways we can fall away or stay on the right path. But the letters are for the churches which were running at the time the Book was written. And if you look at the letters as a whole they also represent the path the ancient church took so it is a prophetic statement. With this in mind I see the binding of the two sticks as one nation of the regathered Israel and I also see it as the Bible and BoM coming together. I think we have to remember what the Bible says about itself.

Proverbs 25:2

King James Version (KJV)

2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

There are many gems concealed in scripture. Only with deep study can we find them. So when I hear of a new way to read some verses I don't automatically say no, I go back and search out the verses.

As for the Jews there are some who are spiritually blind and others who are open to the gospel. I think that each group will gather in different ways. And a third group who by faith have been grafted to the tree of faith. I think we have to be careful when we try and lump everyone together. Sometimes pulling each group apart and following clues in scripture we can find a clearer picture. I have not done a study of the regathering so I have no real opinion. But I thought I would share how I go about my study.

[brightpath]

I believe that in the Bible there are many areas that speak of multiple things in the same verses. This leads to problems when one person takes one view and another person takes a different view. In my mind they both may be correct. Take the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation. I believe the letters are for each of us as each letter describes the various ways we can fall away or stay on the right path. But the letters are for the churches which were running at the time the Book was written. And if you look at the letters as a whole they also represent the path the ancient church took so it is a prophetic statement. With this in mind I see the binding of the two sticks as one nation of the regathered Israel and I also see it as the Bible and BoM coming together. I think we have to remember what the Bible says about itself.

Proverbs 25:2

King James Version (KJV)

2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

There are many gems concealed in scripture. Only with deep study can we find them. So when I hear of a new way to read some verses I don't automatically say no, I go back and search out the verses.

As for the Jews there are some who are spiritually blind and others who are open to the gospel. I think that each group will gather in different ways. And a third group who by faith have been grafted to the tree of faith. I think we have to be careful when we try and lump everyone together. Sometimes pulling each group apart and following clues in scripture we can find a clearer picture. I have not done a study of the regathering so I have no real opinion. But I thought I would share how I go about my study.

Great remarks! Jesus is very clear in 3 Nephi 21 about the gathering of Israel. We do not need to look for other scriptures as the BOM is the most correct book of all scriptures. Search out this great and powerful chapter as Jesus tells Israel(Joseph) the signs to look for.