Gethsemany or Calvary

[volgadon]

Absolutely.

A short summary is that the Oxford manuscript is correct, seeing as one doesn't raise things to a gath, one lowers things. The correct reading there is gag, roof. The name Gath Shemanim does not indicate that a gath was used for oil, just as Gath Rimmon doesn't show that a gath was used with pomegranates. He also points out that Mishna Peah 7:1 shows that olives did sometimes grow by winepresses. Lieberman also points out that the Tosefta Terumot text properly should refer to gath and not gefeth (olive waste). When I get the time I will provide the points in full. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40709&st=&pgnum=343&hilite=

In all rabbinic literature there is only one reference to oil in a gath, and that is the Bablynoian Talmud, t. Pesahim 20b. Thus we are left with a single instance of a gath in connection with oil, with the weight of evidence against its use in the etymology of Gethsemane. Presumably only a very poor business would use the same pits for oil as they did for wine. Even in most villages both have been found, let alone in a place home to a large amount of olive groves. Why use an installation whose primary use is for wine, and why name a place after it? Then we have the evidence of Eusebius and the Syriac translations that this has to do with geography rather than industry. Third, the alternate name of the area is Gadyon, which obviously has nothing to do with presses. The meaning of yon is preserved in the Arabic name Tur, or dove.

I am not saying that the symbolism of oil and olives had nothing to do with the atonement, the opposite is true, just that tracing the etymology to oilpress leads us down the wrong track.

[Calm]

Why wait until Christ was in his thirties for the Atonement to occur? If the Atonement involved only his suffering prior to his death and his death, then there was no real need for him to live much past the age of accountability as he could have achieved the same thing by dying at that time. Even his mission of spreading the Gospel could have been given to other men to do, after all his Apostles reached many more people eventually than he did during the few short years he taught publicly. So what was the purpose of the rest of his life?

I find limiting the Atonement to only a few days at the end of Christ's mortal life somewhat problematic since was not an essential part of the Atonement God experiencing and enduring all that men had endured? Did not Jesus do that at least in part by being conceived, born, growing up, etc?...So I see his whole mortal life as part of the Atonement process and I wouldn't be surprised if the Atonement began for him at the moment he said "Send me" to the Father and took on the burden of Redeemer.

[3DOP]

Why wait until Christ was in his thirties for the Atonement to occur? If the Atonement involved only his suffering prior to his death and his death, then there was no real need for him to live much past the age of accountability as he could have achieved the same thing by dying at that time. Even his mission of spreading the Gospel could have been given to other men to do, after all his Apostles reached many more people eventually than he did during the few short years he taught publicly. So what was the purpose of the rest of his life?

I find limiting the Atonement to only a few days at the end of Christ's mortal life somewhat problematic since was not an essential part of the Atonement God experiencing and enduring all that men had endured? Did not Jesus do that at least in part by being conceived, born, growing up, etc?...So I see his whole mortal life as part of the Atonement process and I wouldn't be surprised if the Atonement began for him at the moment he said "Send me" to the Father and took on the burden of Redeemer.

Hi calmoriah.

January 1st was the Feast of the Circumcision according to the Calendar of the Roman Rite for centuries. For those like me who assist at the Traditional Latin Mass, that old calendar is still observed. I do not know his source, but our priest, reflecting on Christ's circumcision in his sermon on New Year's Day, affirmed that either the Fathers, or St.Thomas, or some other ancient authority we esteem, said that the first spilled drop of Our Lord's Precious Blood, as a babe when circumcised, was sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind. I'll have to track down his source.

I am willing to be corrected on this, but I am not opposed to the idea that in a certain sense, the entire life of Christ, beginning from the moment of conception was redemptive. Certainly the Cross represented His ultimate obedience to the Father, and sacrificial atonement for our sins, but it doesn't seem inappropriate to me to think of the beginnings of His redemptive work as taking place in the Garden or even earlier.

3DOP

[Thinking]

I read the book Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage. It was very clear to me that Talmage believed that the atonement started in the garden and ended on the cross when Christ said "It is finished."

[NauvooSaint]

Very interesting thread. I have really enjoyed reading the contributions & insight of everyone. I have believed both what took place in the Garden & on the Cross were required for an atonement to be effective. If Christ had not taken upon Himself the world's sins & was simply crucified, it wouldn't have been enough. The scriptural prophecies had to be fulfilled. It's especially insightful that the life of Jesus as a whole was part of the atonement & not the end alone. If one considers that Jesus lived a sinless life in order to be a perfect, spotless lamb for sacrifice, then it really hits home. We know Jesus didn't deserve (for wrong doing) to take our place & pay the price for our sins. Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. One could say that once God spoke & Christ submitted to the will of the Father....it was a done deal only to be carried out in time. He IS so awesome!

NauvooSaint

[Calm]

Hi calmoriah.

January 1st was the Feast of the Circumcision according to the Calendar of the Roman Rite for centuries. For those like me who assist at the Traditional Latin Mass, that old calendar is still observed. I do not know his source, but our priest, reflecting on Christ's circumcision in his sermon on New Year's Day, affirmed that either the Fathers, or St.Thomas, or some other ancient authority we esteem, said that the first spilled drop of Our Lord's Precious Blood, as a babe when circumcised, was sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind. I'll have to track down his source.

I am willing to be corrected on this, but I am not opposed to the idea that in a certain sense, the entire life of Christ, beginning from the moment of conception was redemptive. Certainly the Cross represented His ultimate obedience to the Father, and sacrificial atonement for our sins, but it doesn't seem inappropriate to me to think of the beginnings of His redemptive work as taking place in the Garden or even earlier.

3DOP

Very interesting even if I am not quite comfortable with the word "sufficient"....though I believe I understand why it might be so among Catholics as it seems a logical inference from the understanding of the Eucharist. I do feel comfortable with the idea that every act that God lived as a man was part of the atonement, at least in part because it was part of the process he chose for becoming one with us (as contrasted to our salvation being becoming one with him--the Atonement being the two parts working together to allow us to be one with God eternally) and thus while the Cross was the necessary apex of his redemptive work, the rest of his life was the foundation and structure of it. I see the Cross as the seal of his work, so to speak, the "amen", necessary but not sufficient in and of itself.

An analogy for me would be the experience of the Cross acting like a catalyst to get the process moving from the state of preparation to result or the state of completion or perhaps the match that ignites a fire, his life being the gathering of the wood and tinder. Not much of a bonfire if not the right materials gathered and placed correctly, but also no flame and glory without that last spark.