Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica

[Olavarria]

[BCSpace]

Just curious if the lurkers from MDB have any sort of point by point response to this. If they do, they may of course post it over there.

[cinepro]

Based on what Joseph Smith said, I would have to say that the Jaredites are to Wisconsin as the LDS are to Idaho.

Again, those nations, of families, embodied themselves together and traveled they know not where, but at length arrived in the country of Aztalan, of the lake country of America. The Book of Mormon says, that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, that he would give them another land; the Lord heard him, and told him to go to a certain place, "and there I will meet thee and go before thee into a land which is choice above all the land of the earth." This it further speaks is the land of America. The coincidence is so striking that further comment is unnecessary.-ED.

[blackstrap]

I wonder if we could make a list of the Mormon men who have led major armies of the Americas. My reading of the BofM

seems to indicate that the descendants of Lehi played major roles in both the political and military life of the entire people.Now it is certainly possible that such influence was restricted to a few cities in the region,but it doesn't seem to read that way. Same with the family of Jared.

[ebeddoulos]

I wonder if we could make a list of the Mormon men who have led major armies of the Americas. My reading of the BofM

seems to indicate that the descendants of Lehi played major roles in both the political and military life of the entire people.Now it is certainly possible that such influence was restricted to a few cities in the region,but it doesn't seem to read that way. Same with the family of Jared.

I am unsure as to what benefit this might have or what relationship Mormon men might have to the descendants of Jared and Lehi. Since a goodly number of the two civilizations would be descendants of Lehi and Jared, it seems likely that these descendants would naturally fill many occupations from butcher to baker to candlestick maker to military private and general. In a related manner, with six or seven million members in the United States, with the standards of the Church and the military often in lock step, it should also not be surprising that a few Latter-day Saints would rise in the ranks.

With that said let me offer a couple of names of 4-star officers (4-stars being the highest rank currently held in the military) which I am familiar.

• Admiral Paul Alexander Yost Jr. served as 18th Commandant of the United States Coast Guard. Also served on the church's Military Relations Committee
  General Robert C. Oaks served as commander of Air Training Command and United States Air Forces in Europe. Also served as one of the seven presidents of the seventy.

[Olavarria]

Based on what Joseph Smith said, I would have to say that the Jaredites are to Wisconsin as the LDS are to Idaho.

I think he was wrong. He translated the Book of Mormon, he didn't write it.

[Olavarria]

I find the whole jaredite/olmec paradigm to be really persuasive because it has the right basic geographical shape and the same things happening in that shape for the right time. These things were not know until the 20th centuary.

[blackstrap]

ebed: I was trying to connect to the subtitle of the OP wherein there was the inference that the jaredites related to the Olmecs as the mormons do to Idaho. In other words, influential in a small region but not so much in the nation as a whole. I may be reading it incorrectly.

[Olavarria]

ebed: I was trying to connect to the subtitle of the OP wherein there was the inference that the jaredites related to the Olmecs as the mormons do to Idaho. In other words, influential in a small region but not so much in the nation as a whole. I may be reading it incorrectly.

Yes:)

[cinepro]

I think he was wrong. He translated the Book of Mormon, he didn't write it.

True, but we also often forget (sometimes a little too quickly and conveniently) that while Joseph didn't "write" the book, he was the only person who had information about the ancient peoples that didn't originate from the Book itself.

Joseph Smith

[Olavarria]

bump

[cdowis]

Eventually, I can't help but wonder if God is going to put everyone out of their misery and just reveal the locations of key New World Book of Mormon locations so LDS can stop wasting their time, money and energy on the study of false Book of Mormon locations.

I suspect it will happen eventually.

Antimormon myth/argument #4, "If I were God, this is what I would do."

This myth is somewhat below the other myths/arguments, such as "There is no archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon", and "It's only a coincidence."

We can only hope that you would come up with something new and interesting.

I have pointed out numerous times that BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue, but something subject to research and intellectual pursuit. In your example, the parents would rob their children of the experience of figuring it out themselves.

And I suspect that is how the Lord operates, based on my study of the scriptures.

[cinepro]

Antimormon myth/argument #4, "If I were God, this is what I would do."

This myth is somewhat below the other myths/arguments, such as "There is no archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon", and "It's only a coincidence."

We can only hope that you would come up with something new and interesting.

I have pointed out numerous times that BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue, but something subject to research and intellectual pursuit. In your example, the parents would rob their children of the experience of figuring it out themselves.

And I suspect that is how the Lord operates, based on my study of the scriptures.

President Benson taught us that the prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything, the prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time, and the prophet can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual. He also taught that the prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men--between the prophet and the politician or professor.

He doesn't say anything about parents, doctrinal issues, and figuring stuff out for ourselves.

So I think it is within the realm of possibility that President Monson could receive revelation on the subject of Book of Mormon geography and share it with us.

Obviously, until he does we'll have to try to figure it out ourselves. My only suggestion was that given the current inability for LDS to find consensus on the matter, and the logical probability that either the Meldrumites or the Farmites are misleading people (literally) with Book of Mormon tours and publications promoting a false geography, it wouldn't be a terrible thing for President Monson to dedicate 60 seconds of a conference talk to clear the matter up with power and authority.

[thesometimesaint]

ciaepro:

I think that is called assuming facts not in evidence. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ, it is not to be a geography book. It very well could be that God is withholding that bit of information for his own purposes.

[cdowis]

So I think it is within the realm of possibility that President Monson could receive revelation on the subject of Book of Mormon geography and share it with us.

So you are saying "anything is possible" with revelation. I am afraid that your use of Pres Benson falls outside my ability to take you seriously on this point. You are pretending to make a point that you yourself do not accept, only as a parody of LDS beliefs.

Obviously, until he does we'll have to try to figure it out ourselves. My only suggestion was that given the current inability for LDS to find consensus on the matter, and the logical probability that either the Meldrumites or the Farmites are misleading people (literally) with Book of Mormon tours and publications promoting a false geography, it wouldn't be a terrible thing for President Monson to dedicate 60 seconds of a conference talk to clear the matter up with power and authority.

You may think this is very humorous, but I find it disrespectful, if not a mockery of my faith and belief.

I don't know why I even bothered to respond to this nonsense.

[Olavarria]

ciaepro:

I think that is called assuming facts not in evidence. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ, it is not to be a geography book. It very well could be that God is withholding that bit of information for his own purposes.

yep, who knows

[cinepro]

ciaepro:

I think that is called assuming facts not in evidence. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ, it is not to be a geography book. It very well could be that God is withholding that bit of information for his own purposes.

You and Cdowis are both reading way too much into this.

I'm not demanding God reveal the Book of Mormon geography. I'm not expecting to. I'm not insisting that President Monson has to do it in order to be a Prophet.

I'm just sayin' that it is within the realm of possibility that it could happen because if the Book of Mormon is "true", then only one geography can be correct (and the others are wrong), which means it is knowledge that could be revealed. And based on the parameters outlined by President Benson and others, it is within the realm of subjects upon which the President of the Church can receive revelation.

I disagree with those who insist the matter is trivial or unimportant. As rcrocket said in the discussion over the location(s) of the Hill Cumorah:

I do accept the possibility that the location of the real Hill Cumorah is not all that important (but the more one argues that, the more one approaches the view that the Book of Mormon is mere allegory.)

I also suspect that the greater the disagreement between the supporters of different geographies, the greater the pressure on the Church leaders to act. I'm 99% sure that the "action" would be a directive telling people to stop arguing about it and just get along. But I'll still hold out hope for that 1% chance of a revelation bringing clarity and knowledge to the matter. Because that would be so much cooler.