Tent Cities

[ElfLord]

ElfLord,

You were not referencing the correct verse. Of course haste and flight has to do the with the conditions of the gathering "time or speed". I didn't say that had anything to do with transportation. The verse that indicates that there will be disruption in the transportation is the following. Horses could be more of an indication of military as the chariots could imply or it could be transportation.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

(3 Nephi 21:12-29)

Ah... I did miss that. Good catch. I would lean toward the Military interpretaion on this one.

[MDalby]

Ah... I did miss that. Good catch. I would lean toward the Military interpretaion on this one.

Yep, it could mean both. I think the chariots is most likely military but with the context of everything else that is impacted in the surrounding verses (Strongholds, cities, groves, graven images (works of our hands that we idolize), thy standing images, worship the works of thy hands etc...), the horses could be transportation.

MD

http://LDSLastDays.com

[ElfLord]

Yep, it could mean both. I think the chariots is most likely military but with the context of everything else that is impacted in the surrounding verses (Strongholds, cities, groves, graven images (works of our hands that we idolize), thy standing images, worship the works of thy hands etc...), the horses could be transportation.

MD

http://LDSLastDays.com

Well what gives our chariots their horsepower? OIL

Disrupt that and EVERTHING else suffers.

[zelder]

I am a little concerned for the individuals involved and for those who will be drawn in without realizing that speculative opinions are not doctrinal.

I think the problem with "gosple hobbies" is that people will neglect something important for something less important. Or else they will break a commandment in an effort of keep or defend another commandment. For example: someone who goes into debt to buy food storage is taking it to the extreme. Someone who breaks the law because they think the goverment is corrupt is taking it to the extreme. Someone who neglects their children becasue they are always doing family history. Its ok to have lots of food storage and its ok to believe there is corruption in the government and its ok to spend a lot of time on family history. We just need to be careful that we don't cause other problems or commit sins becasuse of to much focus on one righteous persuit.

[MDalby]

I think the problem with "gosple hobbies" is that people will neglect something important for something less important. Or else they will break a commandment in an effort of keep or defend another commandment. For example: someone who goes into debt to buy food storage is taking it to the extreme. Someone who breaks the law because they think the goverment is corrupt is taking it to the extreme. Someone who neglects their children becasue they are always doing family history. Its ok to have lots of food storage and its ok to believe there is corruption in the government and its ok to spend a lot of time on family history. We just need to be careful that we don't cause other problems or commit sins becasuse of to much focus on one righteous persuit.

Amen

[nicolasconnault]

ElfLord,

You were not referencing the correct verse. Of course haste and flight has to do the with the conditions of the gathering "time or speed". I didn't say that had anything to do with transportation. The verse that indicates that there will be disruption in the transportation is the following. Horses could be more of an indication of military as the chariots could imply or it could be transportation.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

(3 Nephi 21:12-29)

In context , this scripture seems to refer to the destruction or invalidation of military forces, not transportation.

Oops, sorry, just realised this has already been answered :s

[mercyngrace]

I think the problem with "gosple hobbies" is that people will neglect something important for something less important. Or else they will break a commandment in an effort of keep or defend another commandment. For example: someone who goes into debt to buy food storage is taking it to the extreme. Someone who breaks the law because they think the goverment is corrupt is taking it to the extreme. Someone who neglects their children becasue they are always doing family history. Its ok to have lots of food storage and its ok to believe there is corruption in the government and its ok to spend a lot of time on family history. We just need to be careful that we don't cause other problems or commit sins becasuse of to much focus on one righteous persuit.

Amen

I think the quotes I took from church leaders refer to that kind of obsessive imbalance.

[blackstrap]

A tent city is a safe place . Ask Haiti how that is working out!

[CV75]

I'm hoping that someone will want to come and try and to articulate what, I believe, is a blatant false doctrine.

Figuratively, Zion is a tent with each new stake stretching its borders across the world. But that's still just one tent. The New Jerusalem Zion in D&C 45 is "a land of peace, city of refuge", but it says nothing about tents. The Old Testament has the references to cities of refuge for those accused of manslaughter.

So, I'd be interested in the modern origin of the "off-the-grid" idea of a Church-led withdrawal of the righteous into rustic encampments for protection against civil disorder and anarchy.

[zelder]

Figuratively, Zion is a tent with each new stake stretching its borders across the world. But that's still just one tent. The New Jerusalem Zion in D&C 45 is "a land of peace, city of refuge", but it says nothing about tents. The Old Testament has the references to cities of refuge for those accused of manslaughter.

So, I'd be interested in the modern origin of the "off-the-grid" idea of a Church-led withdrawal of the righteous into rustic encampments for protection against civil disorder and anarchy.

I'm not certain of the origin. I'm guessing that its Rodger K Young who claims he saw a vision of the tent cities and then others jumping onboard with similar claims. I read a book about a near death experience (Sarah Menet) who claims that she saw vision of tribulations prior to the second coming and one of the things she saw was good people gathering to places of safety with meager supplies and living in tents. She claims most of these gatherings were taking place in the western states.

I normally would not place much weight in such claims but I do think the church's persuit of buying land all over for girls camps is really weird and it makes sense to me that it might be for bigger and more important purposes. Other issues have made me concerned. The ecomony, I think it will end with the dollar going to zero. An economic collapse could cause civil unrest. The military/homeland security has been training for civil unrest/martial law. D&C 45 says that a desolating sickness will cover the land and that war will be everywhere except in zion. Haliburton building detention centers all over is weird. I have to admit, these are exciting times and I think there are a lot of signes suggesting that some serious stuff will be hitting the fan in the future. So I'm keeping an open mind and watching with interest.

[Lightbearer]

The most disturbing thing about these "tent cities" is the implication that we must be warned to participate in such ventures without any reference to the current living Prophet... Amos 3:7 comes to mind. If we are to gather to a "tent city" why would President Monson not speak plainly about doing so? The only legitimate gathering place is to the Stakes of Zion... and standing in Holy places refers to our being prepared spiritually by our righteousness. If we are not spiritually prepared it does not matter where we are. Now if the First Presidency sends a declaration that we are to move to a place of refuge (a tent city) then I would be the first on board, but they have done no such thing, therefore this idea is a cultish idea that did not originate with the Lord. I cannot comprehend why God cannot protect the righteous in their own homes as opposed to in a tent somewhere. Now I understand the case of Lehi's family, and Noah's family but in both cases the living prophet warned not only those families but all the people. A person may have a dream or vision, and while it may show something that may occur such as a tent city (such as after disasters have struck- Haiti, and other such events) it does not follow that we will be commanded to go to such a city for protection. At least not without official prophetic warning from the First Presidency through the channels the Lord has ordained.

[CV75]

I'm not certain of the origin. I'm guessing that its Rodger K Young who claims he saw a vision of the tent cities and then others jumping onboard with similar claims.

Thank you. Having just glanced through Young's book online, it seems the idea is fueled by the presumption that it is better to be over-prepared than under-prepared (rather than just prepared and then more prepared), which is problematic on many levels (does anyone reasonably seek a level of over-preparedness for a specific event with any balance or effectiveness?). It looks like an imaginative speculation of how the Church might respond to latter-day crises.

[zelder]

The most disturbing thing about these "tent cities" is the implication that we must be warned to participate in such ventures without any reference to the current living Prophet... Amos 3:7 comes to mind. If we are to gather to a "tent city" why would President Monson not speak plainly about doing so? The only legitimate gathering place is to the Stakes of Zion... and standing in Holy places refers to our being prepared spiritually by our righteousness. If we are not spiritually prepared it does not matter where we are. Now if the First Presidency sends a declaration that we are to move to a place of refuge (a tent city) then I would be the first on board, but they have done no such thing, therefore this idea is a cultish idea that did not originate with the Lord. I cannot comprehend why God cannot protect the righteous in their own homes as opposed to in a tent somewhere. Now I understand the case of Lehi's family, and Noah's family but in both cases the living prophet warned not only those families but all the people. A person may have a dream or vision, and while it may show something that may occur such as a tent city (such as after disasters have struck- Haiti, and other such events) it does not follow that we will be commanded to go to such a city for protection. At least not without official prophetic warning from the First Presidency through the channels the Lord has ordained.

I think that your right, the Lord can protect us in our homes if necessary. Your point of view is very plausible. Maybe your right and the tent city perspective is wrong. I think I understand your concern. Rob Osbourn claims the church sent out a memo or somthing of that nature regarding the tent city stuff. I have not seen anyone produce the memo but I would be very interested in reading it. If the church leadership sees it as cultish or problematic then they really should send out a memo or a warning because I get the feeling that there are a lot of people that are open minded toward the subject.

Personally, I don't see it as a problem. I totally understand the view that its weird but I don't see it as dangerous or undermining our faith, loyalty to the priesthood or willingness to obey all the commandments. The topic helped motivate me to get my year supply of food and a few additional supplies other than that its just an interesting idea. I'll just sit tight and enjoy life, obey the prophet and see what the future brings.

[zelder]

Thank you. Having just glanced through Young's book online, it seems the idea is fueled by the presumption that it is better to be over-prepared than under-prepared (rather than just prepared and then more prepared), which is problematic on many levels (does anyone reasonably seek a level of over-preparedness for a specific event with any balance or effectiveness?). It looks like an imaginative speculation of how the Church might respond to latter-day crises.

Maybe so.

[nicolasconnault]

It baffles me that mature, intelligent members of the Church (indeed, the very "elect"?) can become full-bottle on scriptures and revelations concerning tent cities, but apparently ignorant of the scriptures on false spirits and deceptive manifestations. The Doctrine and Covenants are replete with such scriptures. It may seem that believing in such off-centre doctrine is harmless, but I think it may be a strategy of Satan to slowly drive a wedge in these members' allegiance to the living prophets, sowing seeds of discord and doubt. Satan is perfectly capable of giving dreams and visions that appear divine in origin. It may do no significant harm to over-prepare oneself physically for the second coming, but, as some have already pointed out here, it should not be done at the expense of spiritual preparation, which includes faith in the living prophets.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm not certain of the origin. I'm guessing that its Rodger K Young who claims he saw a vision of the tent cities and then others jumping onboard with similar claims. I read a book about a near death experience (Sarah Menet) who claims that she saw vision of tribulations prior to the second coming and one of the things she saw was good people gathering to places of safety with meager supplies and living in tents. She claims most of these gatherings were taking place in the western states.

I normally would not place much weight in such claims but I do think the church's persuit of buying land all over for girls camps is really weird and it makes sense to me that it might be for bigger and more important purposes. Other issues have made me concerned. The ecomony, I think it will end with the dollar going to zero. An economic collapse could cause civil unrest. The military/homeland security has been training for civil unrest/martial law. D&C 45 says that a desolating sickness will cover the land and that war will be everywhere except in zion. Haliburton building detention centers all over is weird. I have to admit, these are exciting times and I think there are a lot of signes suggesting that some serious stuff will be hitting the fan in the future. So I'm keeping an open mind and watching with interest.

I don't see what the big deal is with the church buying land for girls camps. The land they are buying for these camps are not that much and not very often. I think the problem stems from one or two accounts of the church buying land and building camps and then the conspiracy theorists start assuming that it is a major deal and blows it way out of proportion. here is an official website about the new Heber girls camp facility-

http://www.hebervalleycamp.org/

Now, from what i understand, the church is placing more of an emphasis on the youth programs- funding more $$$ intot he programs. I am not sure how many LDS people now live in northern Utah along the wasatch front but I am guessing that these little camps are not going to be used for anything like some apocolyptic "tent city" when the supposed United Nations takes over our country. Less than 1% of utah mormons could fit in the girls camps. I don't but it- I believe it is all a conspiracy.

As for the economy, the LDS church operating out of SLC is wholly dependent upon the tithing of it's saints which in large part is funded by a strong American economy. If saints pay their tithes they are protected to some degree. It would be futile to believe that the economy would fail when the church is going through such a great expansion phase. The Lords work- building temples, missionary work, etc is dependent to some large degree upon the economy of this country being stable. I believe the Lord works to protect the economy so that his church can continue to flourish.

As I understand, America is "Zion" and the last time I checked, this country still is a Christian nation. We haven't resorted to casting out and stoning the prophest yet and so we are protected. In fact, Americans for the most part embrace their evangilacal leaders.

As for the detention centers to be contracted by Haliburton, here is the official press release. I can't see where something like this goes to the conspiracy extremes that people talk about.-

http://www.halliburton.com/public/news/pubsdata/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html

Almost every conspiracy theory I have looked into is based off of partial truths, lies, bad or politically charged opinions or misguided information.

Now I am not saying that there isn't a conspiracy that is actually happening with the girls camps or the detention centers, But I am looking at it from the logical side and assuming that nothing out of the ordinary is happening- no actual conspiracy seems apparent. Conspiracy theorists always say- "it's happeneing, just wait and see". I am middle aged now and have been waiting for that "just wait and see" my whole life and as to date, the only real surprize in my lifetime was the fall of communism in Russia and East Germany both of which are in complete opposition to the conspiracy theorists prophecies.

[Rob Osborn]

double post.

[DH]

Eh? Maybe I'm out of the loop (or perhaps it's just because I live outside of Utah?), but I've never heard anything about tent cities in a Church-related context. Strange.

[ERayR]

I'm not certain of the origin. I'm guessing that its Rodger K Young who claims he saw a vision of the tent cities and then others jumping onboard with similar claims. I read a book about a near death experience (Sarah Menet) who claims that she saw vision of tribulations prior to the second coming and one of the things she saw was good people gathering to places of safety with meager supplies and living in tents. She claims most of these gatherings were taking place in the western states.

I normally would not place much weight in such claims but I do think the church's persuit of buying land all over for girls camps is really weird and it makes sense to me that it might be for bigger and more important purposes. Other issues have made me concerned. The ecomony, I think it will end with the dollar going to zero. An economic collapse could cause civil unrest. The military/homeland security has been training for civil unrest/martial law. D&C 45 says that a desolating sickness will cover the land and that war will be everywhere except in zion. Haliburton building detention centers all over is weird. I have to admit, these are exciting times and I think there are a lot of signes suggesting that some serious stuff will be hitting the fan in the future. So I'm keeping an open mind and watching with interest.

I wouldn't count on the girls camp purchases as being much of a place of refuge for people living in tents. Most of these camps, that I know about, are in places of heavy snowfall and very cold temperatures in the winter. Also they are in remote areas which would be hard to service as far as supplies, medical services, etc.

[Rob Osborn]

Eh? Maybe I'm out of the loop (or perhaps it's just because I live outside of Utah?), but I've never heard anything about tent cities in a Church-related context. Strange.

No, what's strange is having it preached to you in class at church. Now that's strange! People should leave their politically or ultra conservative charged theories at home.

[PacMan]

So no one around here actually believes it?

Your in disappointment, yet in greater relief,

PacMan

[nicolasconnault]

So no one around here actually believes it?

Your in disappointment, yet in greater relief,

PacMan

Actually we all believe in it, and we're typing these posts from our wi-fi stations in our air-conditioned tents in the Salt Lake valley. We're running out of space here so we want to make sure no one else believes in this doctrine... Don't tell anyone!

[Brenda]

Huh?? Who? What? I've never heard of tent cities, except for the homeless and refugee camps. Good grief. Is this some sort of Mormon survivalist thing? In Utah, or where?

(I feel so out of the loop.)

[Rob Osborn]

Huh?? Who? What? I've never heard of tent cities, except for the homeless and refugee camps. Good grief. Is this some sort of Mormon survivalist thing? In Utah, or where?

(I feel so out of the loop.)

It's all part of the LDS underground movement. This movement is happening within the church. The conspiracies are very abundant in these groups. Some of these people meet in private settings to secretly/privately discuss the impending doom soon to fall our nation. They often pass along non-official LDS material such as books, DVD's, pamphlets, etc. and have these materials circulated. There is no real official head to this movement although sites like LDSAVOW- http://www.ldsavow.com/ have been one of the main places of internet gathering for this movement.

I call it an underground movement because it seeks to spread this propaganda entirely outside of official LDS authority but yet claim sources within the LDS church as being the backbone for it's authority. It is an "underground" movement because it seeks to gather information relative tot he church as a whole but does so without the necessary authority, purpose or calling. Members or groups of members have no authority to speak for the church as a whole or receive revelation for the church regarding it's proper placement in the welfare of it's members. These underground movement groups often place an emphasis on such things as the "white horse prophecy", a supposed church historical prophecy that the church has already stated it does not endorse nor uphold as official church doctrine.-

http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/blog/church-statement-on-white-horse-prophecy-and-political-neutrality

The harm of following these movements is that it places an emphasis or motivation of prepardness not in accordance with what the current prophets reveal for our times. It is a classic case of "missing the mark". There is nothing wrong with establishing a food storage or establishing our voice in the community to uphold the values of moral or religious belief or even to uphold our constitution. But these underground movements seek to plot a conspiracy of invalid beliefs in the saints to harbor fear and produce undue political hatred towards others which is completely out of harmony with the church and its teachings. s

[Brenda]

It's all part of the LDS underground movement. This movement is happening within the church. The conspiracies are very abundant in these groups. Some of these people meet in private settings to secretly/privately discuss the impending doom soon to fall our nation. They often pass along non-official LDS material such as books, DVD's, pamphlets, etc. and have these materials circulated. There is no real official head to this movement although sites like LDSAVOW- http://www.ldsavow.com/ have been one of the main places of internet gathering for this movement.

I call it an underground movement because it seeks to spread this propaganda entirely outside of official LDS authority but yet claim sources within the LDS church as being the backbone for it's authority. It is an "underground" movement because it seeks to gather information relative tot he church as a whole but does so without the necessary authority, purpose or calling. Members or groups of members have no authority to speak for the church as a whole or receive revelation for the church regarding it's proper placement in the welfare of it's members. These underground movement groups often place an emphasis on such things as the "white horse prophecy", a supposed church historical prophecy that the church has already stated it does not endorse nor uphold as official church doctrine.-

http://beta-newsroom...ical-neutrality

The harm of following these movements is that it places an emphasis or motivation of prepardness not in accordance with what the current prophets reveal for our times. It is a classic case of "missing the mark". There is nothing wrong with establishing a food storage or establishing our voice in the community to uphold the values of moral or religious belief or even to uphold our constitution. But these underground movements seek to plot a conspiracy of invalid beliefs in the saints to harbor fear and produce undue political hatred towards others which is completely out of harmony with the church and its teachings. s

Thanks. Wasn't it Elder Oaks who said, anything we need to know, or hear from the Prophet, we will hear in General Conference? Very wise. We just need to stay focused on Pres. Monson. When he moves into a tent, I'll take it seriously.

Thanks again.