Can a Patriarchy Practice Equality of the Sexes

[TAO]

So Tao if what you say is correct and the priesthood 'balances' out for motherhood then wouldn't all marriages where there is no priesthood be unequal? I tend to think that a father and mother are equally important even where there is no priesthood.

Actually... yes I would say it is unequal. At least from God's perspective - he expects husbands to have the priesthood when they are able to.

[TAO]

My work and my glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of my babies man. Anyone interested in becoming my partner (male/dad/husband/priesthood) in order to get to play also? [ .. . btw, in case this isn't clear, this is a rhetorical question, lol . . .]

Hehe... I wish the person I like thought this way XD... I'm not so sure she wants kids... but I may be able to convince her to adopt... hmmmm....

[CA Steve]

Actually... yes I would say it is unequal. At least from God's perspective - he expects husbands to have the priesthood when they are able to.

Okay now a step farther. Where there is priesthood but the couple is sterile or childless, then is the marriage unequal the other way. Does a woman have to have children to become the equal of a priesthood bearer? See I don't believe that you just take priesthood and motherhood and say they balance each other out. I think the role of the father is, by itself, equal to that of the mother.

[TAO]

Okay now a step farther. Where there is priesthood but the couple is sterile or childless, then is the marriage unequal the other way.

Adoption. It isn't just the ability to bear children that makes them a mother.

Does a woman have to have children to become the equal of a priesthood bearer?

Equality isn't an issue actually, your making it one when it's not. We do not compare two essential positions against each other, when they are supposed to work together.

See I don't believe that you just take priesthood and motherhood and say they balance each other out. I think the role of the father is, by itself, equal to that of the mother.

No, the reason why a non-priesthood bearing father is unequal to a mother is because he is not being a proper roll model for his children.

In other words priesthood doesn't make men higher than women - it is simply a duty for young men - and young women have other duties in life.

[CA Steve]

1. Adoption. It isn't just the ability to bear children that makes them a mother.

2. Equality isn't an issue actually, your making it one when it's not. We do not compare two essential positions against each other, when they are supposed to work together.

3. No, the reason why a non-priesthood bearing father is unequal to a mother is because he is not being a proper roll model for his children.

4. In other words priesthood doesn't make men higher than women - it is simply a duty for young men - and young women have other duties in life.

I wish I knew how to break up a quote. I hope you don't mind me adding numbers to your quote.

1. Adoption is not an option to many/most childless couples, for example elderly couples. I agree that bearing a child is not the only way to fulfill the role of a mother.

2. The whole point of this thread is if a patriarchy can practice equality of sexes. I assume by patriarchy we are talking about priesthood bearers and fathers. By definition the patriarch gets the last word even when couples are supposed to work together. How is this equal? The fact that they can agree on everything or that they share in everything does not mean the final authority rests in both of them. They may be equal in everything else but they are not equal in authority.

3. Then the vast majority of couples have existed in an unequal relationship. I do not believe that God intended it that way. This would automatically classify all not priesthood fathers as lesser role models.

4. I don't like the words higher or lower either, but you cannot just classify priesthood simply as a duty any more than motherhood is just a duty. The responsibility of priesthood carries with it authority, in some cases that authority extends over large groups of people. A simple way to test this would be to ask LDS women to list their role models in the church. I imagine that list would be predominantly male.

[TAO]

I wish I knew how to break up a quote. I hope you don't mind me adding numbers to your quote.

Oh, lol, yah, I understand, I didn't know how at first either... basically... you put what they say in between

[quote]

and

[/quote]

.

So

[quote] This is inside a quote. [/quote]

turns out to be...

This is inside a quote.

But yah, I think you'll get the hang of it.

1. Adoption is not an option to many/most childless couples, for example elderly couples. I agree that bearing a child is not the only way to fulfill the role of a mother.

Sorry... I'm confused... I thought elderly couples could adopt... or is there a law against that (I hope not 0.o).

2. The whole point of this thread is if a patriarchy can practice equality of sexes. I assume by patriarchy we are talking about priesthood bearers and fathers. By definition the patriarch gets the last word even when couples are supposed to work together. How is this equal? The fact that they can agree on everything or that they share in everything does not mean the final authority rests in both of them. They may be equal in everything else but they are not equal in authority.

Lol, what are you talking about... patriarch getting the last word... XD. I bet you would find in most church relationships the wife GETS the last word. Simply because our wife is ultra-important to us. There may be some things, where we will say no, but I mean, isn't that the same thing that will happen in a non-church relationship? Lol, if anything, I find that in church relationships, the husband tends to be if anything, less demanding of the wife, and less NO-ish. Or at least, that is what is taught. There are a few important things, such as making sure your children get raised up in the church, that we WILL make sure happens - but that stuff is agreed upon before the mairrage most of the time AND it's not insignificant stuff, unlike in regular marriages, where some men have fits over things which are hardly important.

Oftentimes, I think in church marriages, the lady has us wrapped around her finger XD. We value them alot. And they value us alot.

3. Then the vast majority of couples have existed in an unequal relationship. I do not believe that God intended it that way. This would automatically classify all not priesthood fathers as lesser role models.

Lol, let me ask you... are an apple and banana equal? No you might say - they are different fruit, and good for different reasons. But they combine to make a great fruit salad (great with cinnamon btw). It's similar with a husband and wife - different roles, different responsibilities, but together make a very awesome marriage.

Lesser role-models from the sight of God, yes they are. But why would you expect God to not expect males to hold the priesthood, if they are able? He's not going to blame you if you can't, but if you are in a position to, he's gonna hold you accountable.

4. I don't like the words higher or lower either, but you cannot just classify priesthood simply as a duty any more than motherhood is just a duty.

But that is what it is - it's a duty and a responsibility. It can be useful, but it's not something to be prideful about, and it wasn't given to make women any less important. Both women and men are necessary for each other. Like bananas and apples, they are different, better in some ways, and worse in others, but they mix great.

The responsibility of priesthood carries with it authority, in some cases that authority extends over large groups of people.

And authority properly used is authority that is not abused. Does it really matter who God says is to hold it if the same thing gets done, and Gods' reason is good?

A simple way to test this would be to ask LDS women to list their role models in the church. I imagine that list would be predominantly male.

Well I can tell you, as a male... I probably have equal number of male and female roll models at church... In fact, I have three really major ones... and one IS a women who has done some great things... I believe I mentioned her in another thread today actually =D.

[CA Steve]

Well I can tell you, as a male... I probably have equal number of male and female roll models at church... In fact, I have three really major ones... and one IS a women who has done some great things... I believe I mentioned her in another thread today actually =D.

Tao,

Thanks for the help on the quotes.

Sorry I don't buy that you have an equal number of female role models as you do male. I am certain you view all the general authoirties as role models. You will be hard pressed to match that number for female church role models.

As for the rest, what happens in each circumstance may be different (and like most married men, my wife seems to get the last word ), but in the end the emphasis in the church, especially from the pulpit, is on a male figure of authority. Watching any conference session with all the general authorties in their seats gives a great example of what I am saying. We may preach equality, but the practice is much different.

If motherhood is equal to all this why do we not also worship a heavenly mother?

On Edit. What would be the problem with saying that there are inequalities and we don't understand why? Do we also have to be 'politically correct' in religion? (Ohh new phrase "religiously correct")

[Nathair/|\]

Tao,

If motherhood is equal to all this why do we not also worship a heavenly mother?

Maybe for the same reason we don't worship Heavenly Grandpa?

Yours under the lightning-attracting oaks,

Nathair /|\

[TAO]

Sorry I don't buy that you have an equal number of female role models as you do male. I am certain you view all the general authoirties as role models. You will be hard pressed to match that number for female church role models.

Yes, but only certain ones touch me deeply... Pres. Monson is one of them... but when I was talking above, I was talking about locally - three people who I know personally.

So yah, maybe overall, but personally, which is what really matters, it's more even, that it is. You know... actually... I just thought of a few other female role models I have... my grandma and great grandma XD. And I'm very close to both of them (well with gg when she was alive)... so yes, it probably will be rather even...

As for the rest, what happens in each circumstance may be different (and like most married men, my wife seems to get the last word ), but in the end the emphasis in the church, especially from the pulpit, is on a male figure of authority.

Part of the responsibility of a husband is to be a good role model... you aren't a figure of authority when you control people, you're a figure of authority when you act a certain way and people think it's cool.

Watching any conference session with all the general authorties in their seats gives a great example of what I am saying. We may preach equality, but the practice is much different.

Na, that has to do with responsibilites, not equality. God has asked male members to have that responsibility. He's asked female members to have another responsibility.

If motherhood is equal to all this why do we not also worship a heavenly mother?

Because it's not her responsibility to be in that position. She has other very important responsibilities which she performs very well. However, Father doesn't talk of her much, partly, it is guessed, because of how much the world would defile her if they knew much about her. Thus, even we don't know much about her responsibilities - but she does have them. And apparently she and father have agreed upon them being appropriate.

On Edit. What would be the problem with saying that there are inequalities and we don't understand why?

Because they aren't inequalities - they just appear to be inequalities now because we don't see things from God's Point of View. When we see it from there though, they will be clearly equal. Different yes, but both necessary for the continuation of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And thus equal. Together they work. Apart, they fail.

Do we also have to be 'politically correct' in religion? (Ohh new phrase "religiously correct")

Nah, don't worry about it, talk is talk is talk and all that matters is what we mean, not how we say it. Let's just discuss rather than worry about correct wording XD.

[CA Steve]

Yes, but only certain ones touch me deeply... Pres. Monson is one of them... but when I was talking above, I was talking about locally - three people who I know personally.

So yah, maybe overall, but personally, which is what really matters, it's more even, that it is. You know... actually... I just thought of a few other female role models I have... my grandma and great grandma XD. And I'm very close to both of them (well with gg when she was alive)... so yes, it probably will be rather even...

Part of the responsibility of a husband is to be a good role model... you aren't a figure of authority when you control people, you're a figure of authority when you act a certain way and people think it's cool.

Na, that has to do with responsibilites, not equality. God has asked male members to have that responsibility. He's asked female members to have another responsibility.

Because it's not her responsibility to be in that position. She has other very important responsibilities which she performs very well. However, Father doesn't talk of her much, partly, it is guessed, because of how much the world would defile her if they knew much about her. Thus, even we don't know much about her responsibilities - but she does have them. And apparently she and father have agreed upon them being appropriate.

Because they aren't inequalities - they just appear to be inequalities now because we don't see things from God's Point of View. When we see it from there though, they will be clearly equal. Different yes, but both necessary for the continuation of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And thus equal. Together they work. Apart, they fail.

Nah, don't worry about it, talk is talk is talk and all that matters is what we mean, not how we say it. Let's just discuss rather than worry about correct wording XD.

Tao,

Authority = Decision making + responsibility. No matter how you paint it one side makes the decisions. No matter how righteous it is, no matter what roles each fills, no matter who is doing what work, no matter how much input each side gets, in the end the decisions get made by men not women. I am not saying this is wrong (well at least not very loudly ) but frankly I believe that women could fill the leadership roles better than men if they were asked and at the same time be great mothers. We men like to argue too much.

I also don't believe the "she is too sacred" to talk about for a heavenly mother. Is she somehow more sacred than God? How can something be so sacred that it is beyond worship? That sort of reasoning make me think of burqas.

Funny thing is I am guessing you and I see women in the same light. And frankly they are not our equals, they are way ahead of us.

[TAO]

Authority = Decision making + responsibility.

I disagree. Authority means you have the capability to make decisions to change things, yes, but it doesn't mean you use it.

No matter how you paint it one side makes the decisions.

Well yah, I'd say then that females are more powerful altogether, since they ARE the ones who usually make decisions in marriages. In terms of the priesthood, the prophets and apostles are just forwarding down what God says, no?

No matter how righteous it is, no matter what roles each fills, no matter who is doing what work, no matter how much input each side gets, in the end the decisions get made by men not women.

Well you know, I'd say then that God is the one getting to make the decisions - and I'm sure he listens to his wife on most things too. In fact - I don't think they disagree on things at all actually. So yah, I'd have to disagree here.

I am not saying this is wrong (well at least not very loudly ) but frankly I believe that women could fill the leadership roles better than men if they were asked and at the same time be great mothers.

Doesn't matter. God has told us to set it up in a specific way, and we don't change it till we are told to. And I am pretty sure he has a good reason for it (which Heavenly Mother agrees with)... and it may not even be what we think... hehe... maybe God provided the priesthood to men because they naturally had a harder time believing in God hehehe... but yah, I don't know why, but I know God has a good reason, and that is good enough to me.

We men like to argue too much.

:yahoo:Which is why in the home, women make most of the decisions! Women are queens of the home. Totally beat us men at it - utterly and destructively.

I also don't believe the "she is too sacred" to talk about for a heavenly mother. Is she somehow more sacred than God?

Let me tell you - how would you feel if someone made a sex joke about her. Now let me ask you, how would God feel? I can tell you, if I was God, I'd probably want to burn that person to bits. And even now, I'd want to hurt that person quite badly. "Did YOU just insult mah MAMA!!!!!! YA GOIN' DOWN!!!!" etc. (nobody insults my mom...) Now considering you have a wife (I'm too young to - but I can still imagine how much I'd care for her) - what would you do if someone made an utterly derrogative sex joke about your wife. I'm guessing you'd probably invite him outside and have a very stern talk with him.

How can something be so sacred that it is beyond worship?

Nah, your mixing things up. The reason she is not worshiped is because she has different duties and responsibilities. The reason we don't know much about her is because she is very sacred to Heavenly Father. Indeed - don't you consider your wife sacred ground?

That sort of reasoning make me think of burqas.

Uh... sorry, I have no idea what a burqas is... yah... do you mean head scarf thingy...???

Funny thing is I am guessing you and I see women in the same light. And frankly they are not our equals, they are way ahead of us.

Hehe, welcome to the world, bruddah, we be da women's SLAVES!!!

But yah, no, I think your right about that, we view women very highly, that we do. And that's the way it should be. =D.

[LeSellers]

I also don't believe the "she is too sacred" to talk about for a heavenly mother. Is she somehow more sacred than God? How can something be so sacred that it is beyond worship?

I wrote this some while back. It applies here:

LDS believe that yes, we do have a Heavenly Mother but God chooses not to reveal much about Her to us, other than Her existence, for whatever reasons. (one popular 'reason' that LDS often give is that She is too important to our Father in Heaven for Him to put Her in a position where she would be disrespected, as He is in this world).

Oh, that's great, and totally answers the question.

I'm a firm advocate of the "He loves Her too much to allow us to denigrate Her" school of thought.

I submit that the books of the Bible written before Ezra were heavily edited at that time (and probably even earlier) to eliminate references to Her by well meaning priests and scribes. I haven't decided whether they were acting on inspiration or just on internal Jewish, religious politics. It doesn't matter too much for my theory (used in the scientific sense here). The result would have been the same either way.

The classic example of mankind's belittling and trashing the role of a Heavenly Mother is in Genesis.

12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?

The kind of harlot Judah thought her to be was the sacred prostitute of Canaanite temples, who would take the price of their sin and give it to the temple of Astoroth as an offering (much as some Muslim girls do today at the holy shrine of Imam Reza in Mash

[semlogo]

Where did the whole "Heavenly Mother is too sacred to talk about" meme come from?

[Jason]

I understand the veneration of womanhood, and I love my wife very much, but thinking that women are "way ahead of us [men]" is just as wrong as thinking they are inferior. Women are generally better than men at some things and men are generally better than women at others. The things involved are equally important, and no person is capable of reaching the highest degree of Celestial glory without their companion of the opposite sex.

Yes, according to God men are to preside in the family. Their word is final. Does this mean that men are superior? By no means.

Is your brain superior to your heart? Try doing without either.

[CA Steve]

I understand the veneration of womanhood, and I love my wife very much, but thinking that women are "way ahead of us [men]" is just as wrong as thinking they are inferior. Women are generally better than men at some things and men are generally better than women at others. The things involved are equally important, and no person is capable of reaching the highest degree of Celestial glory without their companion of the opposite sex.

Jason,

I agree with you said here but with one qualification. I think women are way ahead of men in a critical area. I think they tend to deal with relationships better than men do. Since I feel relationships are the most important thing in life, I think women are way ahead of men.

[bluebell]

Yes, according to God men are to preside in the family. Their word is final.

Hey Jason, could you explain what this means to you? Thanks.

[Jason]

Jason,

I agree with you said here but with one qualification. I think women are way ahead of men in a critical area. I think they tend to deal with relationships better than men do. Since I feel relationships are the most important thing in life, I think women are way ahead of men.

I don't agree that women are "way ahead of men" in this area. They approach relationships differently, certainly, but better?

Is a relationship where two women know practicaly everything about each other and stay in constant contact really better than the perhaps more subdued relationship between two men who are good friends?

[Jason]

Hey Jason, could you explain what this means to you? Thanks.

It means that when our family decides what to do on an issue, the ultimate decision is mine to make, though I would be a fool not to listen to my wife's counsel and obtain her agreement.

[bluebell]

It means that when our family decides what to do on an issue, the ultimate decision is mine to make, though I would be a fool not to listen to my wife's counsel and obtain her agreement.

I just thought it was interesting that you boiled down 'the father is to preside in the family' into 'the father has the final word'.

I tried looking up the subject on lds.org and though i only really looked at one article from the ensign so far, it said nothing about having the final word at all being an aspect of presiding in the home.

If women are only supposed to obey to their husbands as those husbands obey the Lord, then it isn't the man who get's the final word, but God. A man's word, absent his obedience to God, should mean nothing to a woman and hold no sway over her.

I know that to you that may not be a distinction worth mentioning but it is important when discussing this topic to remember that the only way it works for men to preside in the family and women to follow their lead is if God is the head, and not the man.

That is why, in my opinion, this organization that is set up in the home is not sexist. The man has no power over the woman, the woman has no power over the man. Both must be obedient to God, both must be submissive. One is not asked to submit while the other is not.

[CA Steve]

I don't agree that women are "way ahead of men" in this area. They approach relationships differently, certainly, but better?

Is a relationship where two women know practicaly everything about each other and stay in constant contact really better than the perhaps more subdued relationship between two men who are good friends?

I know exactly what you mean about a subdued relationship. I have a friend of over 50 years, (my best man at my wedding) and we can spend an entire day together without saying more than a few sentences and it's a great day. (There is a joke about a guy who wants to divorce his wife because he hasn't spoken to him in months. His friend advises against the divorce because women like that are hard to find. ) So in the example you give, no it is not. But I think women are much better overall in relationships, they seem to make friends easier, they are more concerned about everything involved in relationships and they are especially better at relationship problem solving. They seem much more in tune with feelings. It's that built in nurturing they are blessed with. So yes better.

[katherine the great]

Is your brain superior to your heart?

Actually yes. We haven't figured out the "Jarvik" brain yet.

[Jason]

Actually yes. We haven't figured out the "Jarvik" brain yet.

You seem to have confused "more complicated" with "superior".

[Jason]

So in the example you give, no it is not. But I think women are much better overall in relationships, they seem to make friends easier, they are more concerned about everything involved in relationships and they are especially better at relationship problem solving. They seem much more in tune with feelings. It's that built in nurturing they are blessed with. So yes better.

Again, I disagree.

Making friends easier leads to more friends, perhaps, but does that mean better friends?

Being "more concerned about everything involved in relationships" is a little vague, but could be either good or bad. How many women do you know who obsess unhealthily about whether they said or did the right thing in a conversation where a guy would just brush it off?

I don't think women are better at relationship problem solving. They tend to want to solve the problems more than the men, perhaps, but that doesn't mean they are better at it.

"Much more in tune with feelings" is also somewhat vague, but I would say that wearing your heart on your sleeve is not always the best approach either.

So again, women and men are definitely different, and have different approaches to relationships, but I don't thik either approach could be judged unequivocally as "better".

[Jason]

I just thought it was interesting that you boiled down 'the father is to preside in the family' into 'the father has the final word'.

I tried looking up the subject on lds.org and though i only really looked at one article from the ensign so far, it said nothing about having the final word at all being an aspect of presiding in the home.

Try searching for "patriarchal order" at lds.org.

In particular, "Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home".

The Church has apparently grown more cautious in speaking on this topic, though the doctrine is still there.

If women are only supposed to obey to their husbands as those husbands obey the Lord, then it isn't the man who get's the final word, but God. A man's word, absent his obedience to God, should mean nothing to a woman and hold no sway over her.

But if the man is obeying God's laws, then his wife is bound by covenant to obey him, isn't she? So it is the husband's conduct (and therefore his choice) that determines what is done in a family.

[bluebell]

Try searching for "patriarchal order" at lds.org. In particular, "Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home".

I did, and it's very telling that one has to go back to the early '70's to get this topic from this perspective. I think it would be beneficial to you to read "presiding righteously in the home". It's from 2004 and seems to have been able to successfuly move away from the male/female stereotypes that the other article struggles with.

The Church has apparently grown more cautious in speaking on this topic, though the doctrine is still there

.

The doctrine IS still there, but the application has greatly changed for the bettr.

But if the man is obeying God's laws, then his wife is bound by covenant to obey him, isn't she?

That sounds good but is actually a very shallow interpretation of the marriage covenant. This becomes clear when one reconciles the above statement with everything else that's been revealed about the marriage relationship between a man and a woman.

They are supposed to work together as equal partners, They are to be helpmeets to each other (as the hebrew word entails and not the shoddy english interpretation of the word). They are to be one.

If a man and a woman are equal partners in a marriage, they will work together to come to decisions on things and they will both desire the will of teh Lord for confirmation of it. The man will seek the woman's input and will respect it and the woman will do the same.

If no consensus can be reached, then it is the man's responsibility to discover which option is the will of God. The woman has the responsibility to get confirmation of the same and then obey her husband as he obeys God.

So it is the husband's conduct (and therefore his choice) that determines what is done in a family.

Only in those rare circumstances where the husband and wife are not unanimous in what the decision should be. Otherwise, it should be both the husband and wife's choice on what is happening in a family.