LDS apostles do not need to have seen the risen Christ

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

You wrote:

Everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa,

You wrote:

CFR that everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed.

OK "Rob" lets say those who were not written off as mental patients. But if you want an example lets say

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for support for your statement that everyone who has claimed to see Christ has been killed.

Also, as you should well know, Joseph Smith was not killed for his testimony that he had seen the risen Jesus.

This would be, to the best of my recollection, only the second time I have issued a CFR on this forum.

So, do you retract your statement?

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

OK "Rob" lets say those who were not written off as mental patients. But if you want an example lets say

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa,

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for support for your statement that everyone who has claimed to see Christ has been killed.

Also, as you should well know, Joseph Smith was not killed for his testimony that he had seen the risen Jesus.

This would be, to the best of my recollection, only the second time I have issued a CFR on this forum.

So, do you retract your statement?

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

Oh that

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

I am sorry but you would agree that according to the Bible (in which you have complete faith) it was the established religious leaders of his day who labeled him as a heretic of the true faith. How is your role any different

[David T]

Oh that

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well, strictly speaking, Jesus was killed by the Romans for political reasons. It was instigated by the religious leaders based on his teachings that were damaging to their establishment, true, but Jesus' actual immediate execution was pronounced by the Romans as a peace offering so to say in order to quell a potential uprising, not because of his prophetic/Messianic claims.

Strictly speaking, Joseph wasn't killed because he claimed to have seen Jesus. He did, however, teach doctrines and principles (such as the gathering) which led the local establishment to fear for their sovereignty. A key part of the mobbings in Missouri were based on a misreading of the local paper that they thought said they were inviting freed slaves to come into the community. They certainly would have thought he was crazy for his visions and claims, but in the end, since they didn't believe him, he and his group were viewed as more of a threat to their way of life than anything.

Joseph was killed due to the inevitable results of his living out what he believed, which includes direct communication with and direction and commandments from God. The visions in and of themselves do not need to be direct immediate cause of his death for them to have been a driving force as to what eventually brought him to that point.

Only because by Roman law the Jews were not allowed to enforce the death penalty at that time. You needed the permission of the Roman ruler in that area. But Joseph knew at Liberty Jail he would one day have to give his life for his beliefs so to me they are linked. In fact once Hyrum convinced him to got back to Carthage and turn himself in

[BCSpace]

It troubles me that any Mormon would issue a CFR on this point when it would seem, from this documentation, that the position of the LDS Church on the subject is clear. It troubles me even more that not a single Mormon acknowledged that what I had said was correct. Other Mormons on this forum should have been quick to point out to Vance that LDS apostles indeed need not claim to have seen the risen Christ. They should have cited these references, or other references like them. Did you really need a non-Mormon to point these things out?

Not all of our systematic theology is in a handy alpabetized list. Nor is it a common question among us. I don't recall reading the thread or posts you are refering to else I might have answered similarly. Not that someone else wouldn't have.

[randy]

When David B. Haight became an apostle he spoke in a conference. I heard him say with my own ears that he had not seen.

He used these words "I have not seen but...". What followed those words was too unremarkable to recall precisely.

I do not know how the printed version turned out but I remember being shocked when I realized he had not seen Jesus.

Frankly, he seemed a little apologetic about it.

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but. Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.

He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this: "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place." I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late. Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life. I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today. I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but. Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.

He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this: "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place." I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late. Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life. I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today. I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

That was a great story...thank you.

[Sevenbak]

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but. Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.

He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this: "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place." I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late. Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life. I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today. I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

Thanks for that Randy! Elder Haight's sacred experience was given as promoted by the sprit, among believers, at a small level, in a sacrament meeting, as opposed to a General Conference or published in the Ensign. These sacred things aren't shared with the world at large, as they mock and set at naught.

I feel the same way about the very specific warnings given by Elder Packer in his own ward. (the controversial talk) It was not to go out to the world at large. I think we can also liken apostolic warnings to this conversation. Even at the Regional Conference the week before GC, which is not published, the warnings tended to be more spelled out than at GC, about what is to come. It's not going to be pretty.

[Vance]

It troubles me that any Mormon would issue a CFR on this point when it would seem, from this documentation, that the position of the LDS Church on the subject is clear. It troubles me even more that not a single Mormon acknowledged that what I had said was correct. Other Mormons on this forum should have been quick to point out to Vance that LDS apostles indeed need not claim to have seen the risen Christ. They should have cited these references, or other references like them. Did you really need a non-Mormon to point these things out?

As usual, Rob gets it wrong.

The CFR was for this statement.

That is, in the NT Jesus Christ handpicked his apostles and prophets, and each apostle had to be an eyewitness of the risen Jesus. That isn't the case with your LDS apostles.

To address this CFR and support this statement Rob has to prove that not a single LDS apostle has seen Christ. Which he cannot do.

And to repeat the point Lehi made, there is no record of either Barnabus, or James the Lord brother being "an eyewitness of the risen Jesus".

[Obiwan]

I haven't been following the threads much, but in all my years in the Church having lived in many wards and in apologetics, I've known almost NO LDS who has said an LDS Apostle "must" see Christ to be an Apostle. Even in this thread there are barely any arguing such. Those who do seem to be arguing more that as LDS Apostles most actually seem TO at some point see the Christ.

Frankly there is no hard and fast "rule" for or against this Rob Bowman. The Apostles in the Church who see Christ is a mystery. But, there does seem plenty of evidence which indicates that most have seen Him. The rare comment, hints, and even sometimes directly saying so, though often to a select group or conference while traveling, not generally in LDS publications.

I would suspect that in order to ensure the Church remains HIS, rather than mans, many if not most of the Apostles DO in fact see the Christ at some point. I'm sure of it in fact.

[Obiwan]

As usual, Rob gets it wrong.

The CFR was for this statement.

To address this CFR and support this statement Rob has to prove that not a single LDS apostle has seen Christ. Which he cannot do.

And to repeat the point Lehi made, there is no record of either Barnabus, or James the Lord brother being "an eyewitness of the risen Jesus".

What's new....??? Another anti-mormon strawman. Misrepresenting mormonism and LDS statements creating a big addoo about nothing from it.

When will they learn???

[Tarski]

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but. Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.

He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this: "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place." I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late. Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life. I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today. I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

He did not say he had seen did he now.

I bet he had said hundreds of times before that he knew this or that based on the same twinkly feelings that drives hundrds of Bishops and missionaries to say similar things.

He said to me and all that were there and paying attention that he had not seen. I'll take his word on that.

If he wants to say that nevertheless he somehow knows anyway then fine. He can say it.

I don't think he does any better than I did as a young big mouthed emotional missionary.

[LeSellers]

I see no point in trying to reason with a man who complains that he is being "persecuted" merely because I disagree with him.

CFR that I claimed you (or anyone else) is persecuting me in this matter.

The ones being persecuted are the modern apostles.

Lehi

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

As usual, Rob gets it wrong.

Not at all. "As usual," you twist what I said.

You wrote:

The CFR was for this statement.

"That is, in the NT Jesus Christ handpicked his apostles and prophets, and each apostle had to be an eyewitness of the risen Jesus. That isn't the case with your LDS apostles."

To address this CFR and support this statement Rob has to prove that not a single LDS apostle has seen Christ. Which he cannot do.

That is a ridiculous distortion of my meaning. "That" in the sentence you put in bold type refers back to the previous sentence, which asserts not that some apostles might have been eyewitnesses of the risen Jesus but that "each apostle had to be an eyewitness of the risen Jesus."

I hope you're not going to try to get this thread shut down by claiming once again that I refused to answer a CFR. I answered it in the other thread, and I answered it again, thoroughly and definitively, in this thread. You can issue CFRs all week long for something I didn't say but doing so won't change the facts as to what I have been clearly saying all along.

You wrote:

And to repeat the point Lehi made, there is no record of either Barnabus, or James the Lord brother being "an eyewitness of the risen Jesus".

Doesn't matter. My argument was not that we lack explicit records of every LDS apostle having an encounter with the risen Jesus and therefore they didn't all have such experiences (much less than none of them did). My argument was that we lack records of any living LDS apostle having such an encounter and we have multiple statements indicating that such is not a requirement to be an apostle in the LDS Church.

Just for fun and a change of pace, how about addressing the actual argument?

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

Okay, you got me on that one. You're right, you claimed that I was persecuting LDS apostles, not that I was persecuting you.

Now, I issue you a CFR: Please provide a reference documenting that I am "persecuting" LDS apostles.

CFR that I claimed you (or anyone else) is persecuting me in this matter.

The ones being persecuted are the modern apostles.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Okay, you got me on that one. You're right, you claimed that I was persecuting LDS apostles, not that I was persecuting you.

Actually, I didn't even do that. What I said was that your approach reminded me of Jesus' words.

Now, I issue you a CFR: Please provide a reference documenting that I am "persecuting" LDS apostles.

That kind of depends on what one means by "persecution". Attacking them for not being what they claim to be, i.e., Apostles of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is, in my view, a subtle form of persecution. As this whole topic focuses on that very thing, I believe I have met your Call for Reference.

Lehi

[DeepThinker]

Thanks for that Randy! Elder Haight's sacred experience was given as promoted by the sprit, among believers, at a small level, in a sacrament meeting, as opposed to a General Conference or published in the Ensign. These sacred things aren't shared with the world at large, as they mock and set at naught.

I feel the same way about the very specific warnings given by Elder Packer in his own ward. (the controversial talk) It was not to go out to the world at large. I think we can also liken apostolic warnings to this conversation. Even at the Regional Conference the week before GC, which is not published, the warnings tended to be more spelled out than at GC, about what is to come. It's not going to be pretty.

Actually, Elder Haight has seen the Savior and told about it in General Conference. It was 21 years ago, it was amazing and ranks as my #1 General Conference of all time. I could hardly believe he was sharing the vision he had.

It was reprinted in the April 2007 Ensign. The link is below, if I copied it correctly.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=9b7b6f708ee71110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

The ones being persecuted are the modern apostles.

I conceded that this was what you accused me of doing. Now you say:

Actually, I didn't even do that. What I said was that your approach reminded me of Jesus' words.

No, that's not what you said. Here is what you wrote (underlining emphasis mine):

In this, I can discern no difference between your stance and that of those of whom Christ said this:Luke 11:49, 52 said:

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

If you claimed there is no difference between my "stance" and that of those mentioned in Luke 11:49, in which you put the word "persecute" in bold italics for strong emphasis, I can only conclude that you were accusing me of persecuting your apostles.

You wrote:

That kind of depends on what one means by "persecution". Attacking them for not being what they claim to be, i.e., Apostles of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is, in my view, a subtle form of persecution. As this whole topic focuses on that very thing, I believe I have met your Call for Reference.

I see. Would you agree, then, that you and several others in this group have been engaged in a subtle form of persecution against me?

[randy]

He did not say he had seen did he now.

I bet he had said hundreds of times before that he knew this or that based on the same twinkly feelings that drives hundrds of Bishops and missionaries to say similar things.

He said to me and all that were there and paying attention that he had not seen. I'll take his word on that.

If he wants to say that nevertheless he somehow knows anyway then fine. He can say it.

I don't think he does any better than I did as a young big mouthed emotional missionary.

Tarski,

I was just sharing with you what I knew at that moment then as a 19yr old, just as I know now as a 53yr old....that the Holy Ghost bore witness to me of exactly what it was that Elder Haight was bearing witness of..and yes, even the "unspoken" yet very obvious direct implications. As far as the "twinkly feelings"...I find that comment of yours crass, however, as I mentioned...I have not had a voluminous amount of "mountain top" spiritual experiences.....yet, at that moment in time, the Holy Ghost bore a most powerful witness...and I knew it, and I knew that God knew it...and I will not deny it.

[LeSellers]

Would you agree, then, that you and several others in this group have been engaged in a subtle form of persecution against me?

Have I ever claimed you were not what you presented yourself to be? I cannot recall such a message.

Whether others have is not my responsibility.

Lehi

[Sky]

I wonder if the current Apostles would just come right out and say that they have seen the Risen Lord if that would suddenly convince the unbelievers? Somehow I doubt it.

I think we would all do well to remember the story of the doubting Thomas in the New Testament. I find it interesting to note that he doubted, but yet he was still an Apostle.

From John 20: 25-29:

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

I'll make this simple for you. Do you consider me a validly baptized member of the true church of Jesus Christ?

Have I ever claimed you were not what you presented yourself to be? I cannot recall such a message.

Whether others have is not my responsibility.

Lehi