What Gospel Principles teaches about salvation

[Rob Osborn]

Sorry, but I don't quite see it that way.

2 Nephi 9:10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.

It seems apparent to me that EVERYONE is redeemed from death and hell, UNLIKE the protestant model.

"After resurrection and judgement" those who have not repented and accepted Christ and been baptized will be damned into hell. That is what the Book of Mormon teaches. The "protestant" model of Christianity in the early 1800's was specifically a heaven/hell, saved/damned dichotomy. This is exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches- basic protestant doctrines concerning heavena nd hell.

[Rob Osborn]

i have to agree with Jdave (sp) you, rob osborn, have you own philosophy of what the LDS teach, I believe you have also gone on the record as saying the BoM contradicts other LDS Offical sources - mainly concerning the Second Death and Sons of Predition.

You quoted the same verses as the manual but then stated in effect that only your take on those verse is correct.

I tell you what- If you can use the Book of Mormon to contradict how I have explained "saved" and "salvation" then go ahead. I already know that salvation from death and hell is found only through Christ, repentence, and baptism.

[David T]

n-low, thank you for your reasoned response. I am game for engaging you further and I hope the feeling is mutual.

But isn't a conversation about the principles of the gospel suppose to be a commentary about all of mankind? Your commentary here may well define the reality for those who have the opportunity to hear and contemplate the message (though I have other issues with this) but what exactly are the salvation requirements for all in this mortality?

For those who do not hear the message of the gospel? Live according to the moral conscience and light and knowledge you do receive.

" Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"(D&C 137)

- this, tied in with the Doctrine of Missionary work for the Dead (as in D&C 138) presents that all will ultimately have the same opportunity eventually. Those who rejected the inspired principles they received on Earth (even if not in their fullness) will still reject them in the world to come. However, for those who live their life in accordance with the more light and knowledge they do receive, this shows a good indicator of those 'who would have received it'.

And now I'm a bit more confused on your stance. Do I understand you to say that breaking one's covenants precludes him/her from exaltation as you have defined it?

Breaking one's covenants, and forsaking, or completely rejecting and dis-valuing them.

[Vance]

"After resurrection and judgement" those who have not repented and accepted Christ and been baptized will be damned into hell. That is what the Book of Mormon teaches.

You will have to provide a reference to show this.

Thanks.

[Rob Osborn]

You will have to provide a reference to show this.

Thanks.

No problem-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(3 Nephi 11:33-34)

The book of Mormon teaches that man does not inherit the kingdom of heaven until after resurrection and judgment. Thus choosing not to do the above will get you damned to hell.

[JDave]

I tell you what- If you can use the Book of Mormon to contradict how I have explained "saved" and "salvation" then go ahead.

Rob, the thread is about What Gospel Principles (the manual) teaches about salvation. So let's discuss what the manual teaches. If you can use the Gospel Principles manual to explain your position, that would be marvelous.

[Bernard Gui]

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(3 Nephi 11:33-34)

The book of Mormon teaches that man does not inherit the kingdom of heaven until after resurrection and judgment. Thus choosing not to do the above will get you damned to hell.

If that were the only passage in the BoM that discussed salvation, you would be correct.

Bernard

[Vanguard]

For those who do not hear the message of the gospel? Live according to the moral conscience and light and knowledge you do receive.

" Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"(D&C 137)

- this, tied in with the Doctrine of Missionary work for the Dead (as in D&C 138) presents that all will ultimately have the same opportunity eventually. Those who rejected the inspired principles they received on Earth (even if not in their fullness) will still reject them in the world to come. However, for those who live their life in accordance with the more light and knowledge they do receive, this shows a good indicator of those 'who would have received it'.

And now here we are much closer to the crux of the situation as I see it. You seem to be suggesting that the criteria for many in this life is/was "liv[ing] their life in accordance with the more light and knowledge they do receive". In other words, all mankind has been given the light of Christ as an aid in determining questions of morality relative to their individual capacity to recognize truth. There, at its foundation, is an expectation for all to behave well enough according to that which they have been given. Exactly how much they have been given remains to be seen though we all have been given something.

I wonder if this also pertains to those who have a knowledge of this gospel? For that matter, what exactly do you mean when you say "die without a knowledge of this gospel"? Do you mean literally never having heard of it? Does hearing of it automatically submit the person to accepting it if they do not want to be damned? You know, did that LDS billboard on the side of the freeway constitute the knowledge necessary for some? What about accepting a neighbor's invite to attend a ward social? What about allowing the missionaries to teach the first discussion? What about serving a mission? And so on...

At its core, the question I have is: Does having a knowledge of the gospel mean something different to everyone or is their a more standardized process that we can identify?

[Vance]

No problem-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(3 Nephi 11:33-34)

The book of Mormon teaches that man does not inherit the kingdom of heaven until after resurrection and judgment. Thus choosing not to do the above will get you damned to hell.

Sorry, but to be technically accurate, those verses don't mention "hell".

Care to try again?

[zerinus]

So many posts, and no clear answers!

I would be very interested in a discussion about what Gospel Principles teaches about salvation (both general salvation or immortality and individual salvation or eternal life). This would seem to be an especially appropriate time to have such a discussion, since the ongoing LDS study of Gospel Principles is about to turn to four chapters (18-21) dealing with the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I propose that we use Gospel Principles as the basis of our discussion because of its long and wide use in instructing members of the LDS Church in LDS doctrine. My main interest here is not in debating whether the LDS doctrine is true (that could come later) but simply in getting clarity as to what that doctrine of salvation really is. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to discussing this issue?

The Gospel Principles manual does not directly define what salvation is. It talks a lot about how it is obtained, but not what it actually is. To get some idea of that you have to read between the lines of some of those teachings, such as the following:

Lesson 11

:

He redeemed us from our sins and saved us from death.

Lesson 12

:

Jesus Christ

[Freedom]

No problem-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(3 Nephi 11:33-34)

The book of Mormon teaches that man does not inherit the kingdom of heaven until after resurrection and judgment. Thus choosing not to do the above will get you damned to hell.

Sorry, but you are ASSUMING a whole lot. The scripture simply says we will be saved or dammed but it does not say what we will saved from or damned to. You are assuming that it is an all or nothing deal and you believe this because you are tainted by protestant teachings that have clouded your perception of mormon doctrine. They will be saved, and they shall inherit the kingdom of God.

If someone looses their keys one could say they would be in trouble. By saying they are in trouble does not in any way determine the amount of trouble they may be in. Loosing their keys could cause trouble ranging from being late for work or having their house robbed. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who eat carrots will be healthy. Those who read will gain knowledge. Well, these expressions are extremely simplistic and incomplete but they present a concept. You do not need too much intelligence to know that eating carrots alone will not make you healthy, nor can anybody determine how healthy you would be by eating carrots. It is just an expression without context.

[Freedom]

You will have to provide a reference to show this.

Thanks.

Of course he will provide references, but only those references he misinterprets and distorts. To prove this point he has to add words to the scriptures that do not exist.

[Freedom]

[Rob Osborn]

Sorry, but you are ASSUMING a whole lot. The scripture simply says we will be saved or dammed but it does not say what we will saved from or damned to. You are assuming that it is an all or nothing deal and you believe this because you are tainted by protestant teachings that have clouded your perception of mormon doctrine. They will be saved, and they shall inherit the kingdom of God.

If someone looses their keys one could say they would be in trouble. By saying they are in trouble does not in any way determine the amount of trouble they may be in. Loosing their keys could cause trouble ranging from being late for work or having their house robbed. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who eat carrots will be healthy. Those who read will gain knowledge. Well, these expressions are extremely simplistic and incomplete but they present a concept. You do not need too much intelligence to know that eating carrots alone will not make you healthy, nor can anybody determine how healthy you would be by eating carrots. It is just an expression without context.

I am sorry if I have not been as clear as possible. The scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon speaks often about being "saved" and it is quite specific on what we are being saved from. We are saved from the damnation of hell. There is not anything else pertaining to "salvation" that we are saved from. When a person is "damned" it means they are condemned, and in the scriptures it literally means to be condemned to hell. No one who is damned is saved as they are opposite in meaning. The Book of Mormon was written in the midst of protestantism. Joseph Smith himself was raised in protestantism. The wonderful truths of the Book of Mormon is that it is a strict dichotomy- you are either saved into heaven or damned into hell. Is this not beautiful? I mean really, where else is there? we either gain eternal life or gain eternal death. We either enjoy eternal life or get stuck in awful misery in eternal death. We either come unto Christ or turn away from him. We are either found on the right hand or on the left. We are either sheep or we are goats. We are either wheat or we are tares. Everything we do either leads us to him or leads us away from him. That is the beauty of the gospel and the plan of salvation- we either work towards slavation or work towards damnation. Thankfully, through the atonement we can continually repent and turn again to Christ and he will freely forgive us.

Let me ask this- how many paths are there leading to salvation?

[Rob Osborn]

Of course he will provide references, but only those references he misinterprets and distorts. To prove this point he has to add words to the scriptures that do not exist.

Perhaps you could give a proper and undistorted interpretation then of these versus-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 11:33 - 34)

[yesucan2]

Salvation spoken of in the scriptures means to be saved from hell- that is all it ever means. Salvation is not synonymous with exaltation in any context. Exaltation is to be a God in LDS doctrine. Some also equate "eternal life" with exaltation and again these are not synonymous terms. Eternal life is the condition of "all" the saved in heaven. A person, after resurrection and judgment will either have "eternal life" in heaven, or he will have "eternal death" in hell, no inbetween.

We already know what you think.

Stamping your feet and throwing a fit does not prove your assertion.

[Rob Osborn]

We already know what you think.

Stamping your feet and throwing a fit does not prove your assertion.

Whos stamping? I am perfectly comfortable. How about you?

[Freedom]

I am sorry if I have not been as clear as possible. The scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon speaks often about being "saved" and it is quite specific on what we are being saved from. We are saved from the damnation of hell. There is not anything else pertaining to "salvation" that we are saved from. When a person is "damned" it means they are condemned, and in the scriptures it literally means to be condemned to hell. No one who is damned is saved as they are opposite in meaning. The Book of Mormon was written in the midst of protestantism. Joseph Smith himself was raised in protestantism. The wonderful truths of the Book of Mormon is that it is a strict dichotomy- you are either saved into heaven or damned into hell. Is this not beautiful? I mean really, where else is there? we either gain eternal life or gain eternal death. We either enjoy eternal life or get stuck in awful misery in eternal death. We either come unto Christ or turn away from him. We are either found on the right hand or on the left. We are either sheep or we are goats. We are either wheat or we are tares. Everything we do either leads us to him or leads us away from him. That is the beauty of the gospel and the plan of salvation- we either work towards slavation or work towards damnation. Thankfully, through the atonement we can continually repent and turn again to Christ and he will freely forgive us.

Let me ask this- how many paths are there leading to salvation?

Oh really now Paul? Others have provided references where the word

[Freedom]

Perhaps you could give a proper and undistorted interpretation then of these versus-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 11:33 - 34)

Paul's translation:

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved into single heaven where all receive the same reward regardless of any individual efforts; and this is synonymous to saying that they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned down to a single and common hell.

Freedom's translation:

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Tell me Paul, whose translation more closely resembles the book of mormon? This verse does not by any stretch of the definition tell us what we are saved from or where we are damned to. Let

[Bernard Gui]

Just read the rest of Jesus' teachings in 3 Nephi.

This verse does not stand alone.

Bernard

[zerinus]

"After resurrection and judgement" those who have not repented and accepted Christ and been baptized will be damned into hell. That is what the Book of Mormon teaches. The "protestant" model of Christianity in the early 1800's was specifically a heaven/hell, saved/damned dichotomy. This is exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches- basic protestant doctrines concerning heavena nd hell.

You are very much mistaken if you think that the Book of Mormon teaches a strict, black and white, salvation/damnation theology. It does not. Here is a reference:

2 Nephi 9

:

22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

25 Wherefore, he has given a law;

and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him

.

26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon

all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster

, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

The highlighted passages make it clear that those who

[Rob Bowman]

Lightbearer,

You wrote:

It is absolutely reasonable, in fact much more reasonalble than quoting from Journal of Discourses or The Seer or some other obscure reference to prove what Mormons believe and teach. Gospel Principles is an excellent source and can be a reliable one for doctrine, especially since we are currently teaching from it.

Thanks for giving the most direct responses to my opening post. I agree with you.

[Rob Bowman]

Let me begin by listing some points of agreement between the LDS doctrine of salvation and the evangelical doctrine of salvation. These points of agreement are real agreements, though in most cases there are important qualifications and disagreements that must be acknowledged in order to have a complete and adequate understanding of the issues here. In some cases, we use the same words but mean something different by them. I will address those problems in a subsequent post. As proposed in my opening post, I will base this analysis on the LDS doctrinal manual Gospel Principles. Parenthetical references are page numbers from that manual.

1. As a result of Adam's fall, all human beings are subject to both physical death (the dissolution of the spirit from the body) and spiritual death (separation from God) (59).

2. Sin is transgressing God's law, failing to do what we know is right (107).

3. Human beings cannot ransom or redeem themselves from sin and death (59).

4. Jesus Christ is the only Savior from sin, the only one who can atone for our sins (61, 103).

5. One crucial fact qualifying Jesus Christ to be our Savior is that he alone among all human beings lived a sinless life (61).

6. Jesus died on a cross (61).

7. Jesus rose physically from the grave to immortality (61-62).

8. Every human being will be resurrected (62).

9. Only those people who accept the atonement will be saved from spiritual death (62).

10. Faith in Christ is the first principle of the gospel (101).

11. Christian faith is centered on Jesus Christ (103).

12. One cannot have faith in Christ without having faith in God the Father (103).

13. We must repent of our sins (107).

14. Repentance involves recognizing or admitting our sins, being sorry for them, and confessing them to the Lord (110-11).

15. All believers in Jesus Christ are expected to be baptized (115).

I hope I have mentioned everything from Gospel Principles directly relevant to the doctrine of salvation on which there is agreement between Mormons and evangelicals. The above should at least get us started.

[Rob Osborn]

As a matter of fact, the Book of Mormon teaches a strict dichotomy of either heaven on one hand or hell on the other hand. The book also explains the strict guidelines into either heaven or into hell. Christ himself explained in his own words this simple gospel in 3rd Nephi. When we understand this position we thus understand the gospel. It is laid out in our articles of faith also-

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3)

This is the gospel in all of it's simpleness and truth. No gray area. I think that is what is the most important part of our gospel that we miss. Somehow we think that man can be saved into heaven by some other means. When we expound upon the three degrees of glory we get caught up in section 76 and think that perhaps salvation comes to those who pay some kind of penalty but never really accept the gospel. Now on one hand "Gospel Principles" lays out this simple plan as explained in our article of faith and yet on the other hand the book somehow disregards it when it gets to the chapter 46 and explains that some will still be saved but not by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is a direct contradiction. Also of note is the fact that the temple endowment regarding the three kingdoms is completely nonexistant but totally relevent to the plan of salvation.

Like i have said before, "Gospel Principles" offers two separate plans of salvation of the which contradict each other.

[Vance]

1. As a result of Adam's fall, all human beings are subject to both physical death (the dissolution of the spirit from the body) and spiritual death (separation from God) (59).

2. Sin is transgressing God's law, failing to do what we know is right (107).

3. Human beings cannot ransom or redeem themselves from sin and death (59).

4. Jesus Christ is the only Savior from sin, the only one who can atone for our sins (61, 103).

5. One crucial fact qualifying Jesus Christ to be our Savior is that he alone among all human beings lived a sinless life (61).

6. Jesus died on a cross (61).

7. Jesus rose physically from the grave to immortality (61-62).

8. Every human being will be resurrected (62).

9. Only those people who accept the atonement will be saved from spiritual death (62).

10. Faith in Christ is the first principle of the gospel (101).

11. Christian faith is centered on Jesus Christ (103).

12. One cannot have faith in Christ without having faith in God the Father (103).

13. We must repent of our sins (107).

14. Repentance involves recognizing or admitting our sins, being sorry for them, and confessing them to the Lord (110-11).

15. All believers in Jesus Christ are expected to be baptized (115).

Rob,

Since you claim your "intention is honest dialogue", I will reply.

I agree that these items, as worded, seem to be areas of agreement. Of course, differences in the definitions of those words may be a problem.