Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rob Bowman

What Gospel Principles teaches about salvation

Recommended Posts

I would be very interested in a discussion about what Gospel Principles teaches about salvation (both general salvation or immortality and individual salvation or eternal life). This would seem to be an especially appropriate time to have such a discussion, since the ongoing LDS study of Gospel Principles is about to turn to four chapters (18-21) dealing with the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I propose that we use Gospel Principles as the basis of our discussion because of its long and wide use in instructing members of the LDS Church in LDS doctrine. My main interest here is not in debating whether the LDS doctrine is true (that could come later) but simply in getting clarity as to what that doctrine of salvation really is. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to discussing this issue?

Share this post


Link to post

Some brief selections from each section I liked, that I feel are relevant:

"We must center our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To have faith in Jesus Christ means to have such trust in Him that we obey whatever He commands. As we place our faith in Jesus Christ, becoming His obedient disciples, Heavenly Father will forgive our sins and prepare us to return to Him." (Faith)

Which leads to a change of heart and mind, which leads us to strive to live according to the will of God.

"As we repent, the Atonement of Jesus Christ becomes fully effective in our lives, and the Lord forgives our sins. We become free from the bondage of our sins, and we find joy" (Repentance)

As we experience this Joy, we desire to express our faith and repentence further by entering into a Covenant relationship with the Savior. A specific promise is given:

"Jesus said,

Share this post


Link to post

Rob Bowman:

The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus the Christ; repentance to God, and his appointed representatives; baptism by those having the authority; receipt of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion; confirmation as a member in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Share this post


Link to post

I would be very interested in a discussion about what Gospel Principles teaches about salvation (both general salvation or immortality and individual salvation or eternal life). This would seem to be an especially appropriate time to have such a discussion, since the ongoing LDS study of Gospel Principles is about to turn to four chapters (18-21) dealing with the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I propose that we use Gospel Principles as the basis of our discussion because of its long and wide use in instructing members of the LDS Church in LDS doctrine. My main interest here is not in debating whether the LDS doctrine is true (that could come later) but simply in getting clarity as to what that doctrine of salvation really is. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to discussing this issue?

It is absolutely reasonable, in fact much more reasonalble than quoting from Journal of Discourses or The Seer or some other obscure reference to prove what Mormons believe and teach. Gospel Principles is an excellent source and can be a reliable one for doctrine, especially since we are currently teaching from it.

Share this post


Link to post

I would be very interested in a discussion about what Gospel Principles teaches about salvation (both general salvation or immortality and individual salvation or eternal life). This would seem to be an especially appropriate time to have such a discussion, since the ongoing LDS study of Gospel Principles is about to turn to four chapters (18-21) dealing with the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I propose that we use Gospel Principles as the basis of our discussion because of its long and wide use in instructing members of the LDS Church in LDS doctrine. My main interest here is not in debating whether the LDS doctrine is true (that could come later) but simply in getting clarity as to what that doctrine of salvation really is. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to discussing this issue?

All of them.

Share this post


Link to post

I would be very interested in a discussion about what Gospel Principles teaches about salvation (both general salvation or immortality and individual salvation or eternal life). This would seem to be an especially appropriate time to have such a discussion, since the ongoing LDS study of Gospel Principles is about to turn to four chapters (18-21) dealing with the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I propose that we use Gospel Principles as the basis of our discussion because of its long and wide use in instructing members of the LDS Church in LDS doctrine. My main interest here is not in debating whether the LDS doctrine is true (that could come later) but simply in getting clarity as to what that doctrine of salvation really is. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to discussing this issue?

to what would you like clarity? After you have read the Chapters please post on what you would like clarified based on the information in the chapters.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm interested to see where this goes. The manual, which I think ought to be praised for it's concision (at least with respect to the context in which it's intended to be used in), might not, for the same reason, be very useful for getting very clear about LDS doctrine. I think it's useful at getting at things like, for example, that people ought to have faith in Jesus Christ. I don't think it'll turn out being very useful at all at being clear about what exactly it means to have faith in Jesus Christ. But, hey, maybe I'm wrong about that. As I said, I'm interested to see what this thread turns up.

Share this post


Link to post

This subject is perhaps the most perplexing subject I have studied in LDS doctrine. What really is "salvation"? What does it mean to be "saved"? And, who is the book addressing in it's basic explanation?

We begin in chapter 18 with the verse quoted-

12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:12)

Of note and interest here is that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith used the terms "salvation" and "saved" according to early protestant definitions. As such this presents a strict dichotomy that is the trademark of the Book of Mormon. Salvation, as spoken of here is meant to be saved from hell and into heaven through faith and repenatnce of ones sins. The manual "Gospel Principles" is generally addressing the common person who is a new convert with a protestant background of words, terms and definitions. This is of very special note and later also presents some unique problems.

Later in chapter 18 is quoted yet another verse-

17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:17)

Again the term salvation is painted with clarity as meaning typical protestant "salvation"- being saved from hell into heaven. The next verse quoted further validifies this-

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:23)

Here the basic fundamental principles for salvation are laid. This is meaning "salvation from hell".

Chapter 20 goes on to detail that baptism is a requirement for this "salvation" as has been detailed already. So basically to sum up-

Salvation means to be saved from hell into heaven with peace and joy. This is accomplished through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance from sin, baptism for a remission of sins and a rebirth into the kingdom of heaven, and then the gift of the Holy Ghost. A failure to complete this task for anyone accountable by judgment are thus not saved from hell, do not attain this "salvation" spoken of so clearly, and do not attain heaven where the saved will be found. Pretty basic stuff here, it boggles me sometimes to think we also teach a second type of salvation of the which repenatnce and baptism can be bypassed. i find that very odd!

Share this post


Link to post

what is the second type of salvation to which you believe LDS teach that repentance and baptism be bypassed?

how do you what Joseph Smith meant by the words he used?

Share this post


Link to post

I am curious why it is that people want an absolute definition of the word salvation. It does not, by itself, conclude much of anything. To say I am saved is like saying I am led. Saved from what? The word requires a qualifier to mean anything. The bible never defines the word. You can read many references to it but never can you find a definition of the term. I can be saved from sin, saved from temptation, saved from damnation, saved from sorrow, saved from hunger, saved from ignorance. Many uses of the word

Share this post


Link to post

I am curious why it is that people want an absolute definition of the word salvation. It does not, by itself, conclude much of anything. To say I am saved is like saying I am led. Saved from what? The word requires a qualifier to mean anything. The bible never defines the word. You can read many references to it but never can you find a definition of the term. I can be saved from sin, saved from temptation, saved from damnation, saved from sorrow, saved from hunger, saved from ignorance. Many uses of the word

Share this post


Link to post

Good point.

It can also mean saved from drowning.

Matt 8:25. & Acts 27:31

It can also mean saved from bondage/slavery.

Jude 1:5

Well thank you, you just saved me from having to find scriptures to justify my position. Consequently your very act has made my calling and election sure. Can you save those references somewhere? If you saved them does that mean that the bible can also go to heaven? Save that thought.

Share this post


Link to post

I would be interested in mormon teachings and thought that specifically suggest salvation and exaltation are one in the same, and salvation is a gradual, incremental process of eternal progression - rather than a sudden, instant occurrence based on a single act of faith.

I always have been perplexed by the idea of being 'unsaved' by default, then, if certain criteria are met, becoming 'saved' forever in a moment.

The apparent hairline width by which God saves/damns us all seems a bit illogical and unreasonable. This is not how things work in the real world and I have difficulty believing God would use such a crudely dubious process in determining the eternal fate of a human soul.

Share this post


Link to post

I always have been perplexed by the idea of being 'unsaved' by default, then, if certain criteria are met, becoming 'saved' forever in a moment.

The teaching that we are literally children of God does seem to infer that we are in a 'saved' condition by default, and can choose to accept further light and truth or reject it. Only when we truly reject the light and truth offered to us are we consigned to an "unsaved" state. But that is taking an ENTIRELY different tack than is standardly done and I don't think it will be reflected much in the somewhat pragmatic teachings of salvation while in our mortal state.

Share this post


Link to post

I would be interested in mormon teachings and thought that specifically suggest salvation and exaltation are one in the same, and salvation is a gradual, incremental process of eternal progression - rather than a sudden, instant occurrence based on a single act of faith.

I always have been perplexed by the idea of being 'unsaved' by default, then, if certain criteria are met, becoming 'saved' forever in a moment.

The apparent hairline width by which God saves/damns us all seems a bit illogical and unreasonable. This is not how things work in the real world and I have difficulty believing God would use such a crudely dubious process in determining the eternal fate of a human soul.

It's not really so much about what Mormons teach; it's about what Mormons think.

If you use the word Salvation in a context that suggests Exaltation, then, in that instance, that's what they are going to think.

Since they think that Salvation=Exaltation, then that's what it means.

On the other hand, it has been my experience that, in a different context where the topic is more like General Salvation as in "being saved", then, to Mormons, it generally can have that meaning as well.

Share this post


Link to post

I am curious why it is that people want an absolute definition of the word salvation. It does not, by itself, conclude much of anything. To say I am saved is like saying I am led. Saved from what? The word requires a qualifier to mean anything. The bible never defines the word. You can read many references to it but never can you find a definition of the term. I can be saved from sin, saved from temptation, saved from damnation, saved from sorrow, saved from hunger, saved from ignorance. Many uses of the word

Share this post


Link to post

It's not really so much about what Mormons teach; it's about what Mormons think.

If you use the word Salvation in a context that suggests Exaltation, then, in that instance, that's what they are going to think.

Since they think that Salvation=Exaltation, then that's what it means.

On the other hand, it has been my experience that, in a different context where the topic is more like General Salvation as in "being saved", then, to Mormons, it generally can have that meaning as well.

Salvation spoken of in the scriptures means to be saved from hell- that is all it ever means. Salvation is not synonymous with exaltation in any context. Exaltation is to be a God in LDS doctrine. Some also equate "eternal life" with exaltation and again these are not synonymous terms. Eternal life is the condition of "all" the saved in heaven. A person, after resurrection and judgment will either have "eternal life" in heaven, or he will have "eternal death" in hell, no inbetween.

Share this post


Link to post

Salvation spoken of in the scriptures means to be saved from hell- that is all it ever means. Salvation is not synonymous with exaltation in any context. Exaltation is to be a God in LDS doctrine. Some also equate "eternal life" with exaltation and again these are not synonymous terms. Eternal life is the condition of "all" the saved in heaven. A person, after resurrection and judgment will either have "eternal life" in heaven, or he will have "eternal death" in hell, no inbetween.

Rob Osborn,

It is important to note that you do have some ideas relative to this topic that are not exactly mainstream and do not reflect what is normally taught as LDS doctrine. They are reasonable thoughts, but this thread is specifically about what the Gospel Principles manual teaches about salvation. So if we claim something, let's back it up with something from that manual.

Share this post


Link to post

Rob Osborn,

It is important to note that you do have some ideas relative to this topic that are not exactly mainstream and do not reflect what is normally taught as LDS doctrine. They are reasonable thoughts, but this thread is specifically about what the Gospel Principles manual teaches about salvation. So if we claim something, let's back it up with something from that manual.

It is also important to note that in my first post i quoted the same scriptures the manual quoted. I then expounded upon them and defined them exactly how the Book of Mormon defines the terms. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that but the Book of Mormon tells "how" salvation and saved are defined.

Share this post


Link to post

Here's a selection from the chapter on the Final Judgment concerning the Celestial Kingdom:

Celestial

Share this post


Link to post

It is also important to note that in my first post i quoted the same scriptures the manual quoted. I then expounded upon them and defined them exactly how the Book of Mormon defines the terms. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that but the Book of Mormon tells "how" salvation and saved are defined.

i have to agree with Jdave (sp) you, rob osborn, have you own philosophy of what the LDS teach, I believe you have also gone on the record as saying the BoM contradicts other LDS Offical sources - mainly concerning the Second Death and Sons of Predition.

You quoted the same verses as the manual but then stated in effect that only your take on those verse is correct.

Share this post


Link to post

I recognize my commentary may exceed the legitimate parameters of the OP though I couldn't help myself. ;)

Here's a selection from the chapter on the Final Judgment concerning the Celestial Kingdom:

Some notes from that, concerning who will be in the Celestial Kingdom (Salvation), and what that means, as well as its relationship to exaltation:

_____________________________________

1. Those who recieve the testimony of Jesus, believe, are baptized, and then, by doing so receive a remission of their sins (Justification), recieve the Holy Ghost.

This quote along with the others only begs the question. Can that testimony of Jesus be received at some point in the hereafter? If not, is it meaningful to teach this principle as though it were required to accept Jesus in this life? Will there be countless individuals who do not receive this testimony in this mortality?

2. They are faithful, and the promised blessings are ratified by the Holy Ghost (or 'Holy Spirit of Promise').

Again, what does it mean to be faithful? Faithful to what?

3. Additionally, there is a highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, which is the degree of Exaltation. Marriage for eternity is one of the prerequisites for this degree.

But that will be an easy one as the act of being married for eternity will be offered up to all - you know, kind of an automatic pilot and as such, a piece of cake.

4. All who inherit the Celestial Kingdom (which includes those who are not exalted to the highest degree) "will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ Forever.

Cool beans but the bottom line is I am still unclear about what it will take on our part to get us there? Again, what is the criteria for salvation and/or exaltation that would require something of us (distinguishing between those things that must happen in this mortality and not simply those ordinances offered to all by default of this mortality)?

By the way, I hear that exaltation to the highest degree also has a VIP Sky Box section reserved for the really good ones... :P

Share this post


Link to post

This quote along with the others only begs the question. Can that testimony of Jesus be received at some point in the hereafter?

Yes.

If not, is it meaningful to teach this principle as though it were required to accept Jesus in this life?

For those who have what the Lord judges to have a proper opportunity to do so, it is required in this life. It is not required in mortality for those who have not had such an opportunity, but will be granted the opportunity in the hereafter, as Missionaries (in the midst of others who have differing opinions) present the message to them. (see D&C 138)

Will there be countless individuals who do not receive this testimony in this mortality?

There have been, and yet will be.

Again, what does it mean to be faithful? Faithful to what?

It means to be steadfast and devoted and trusting in Jesus Christ. That he is who he claims to be, and will do what He says he will do, according to the terms He sets.

But that will be an easy one as the act of being married for eternity will be offered up to all - you know, kind of an automatic pilot and as such, a piece of cake.

Prerequisite doesn't equal ALL the prerequisites. Remaining faithful to one's spouse and keeping the associated Temple covenants are involved. There is most likely a sizable number of individuals who have entered into the covenant of Temple Marriage who probably will not be exalted. It's a minority, but a reality. Not all those offered the opportunity are willing to accept the terms of the Covenant, and choose not to participate.

Cool beans but the bottom line is I am still unclear about what it will take on our part to get us there? Again, what is the criteria for salvation ...that would require something of us (distinguishing between those things that must happen in this mortality and not simply those ordinances offered to all by default of this mortality)?

Strive to Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. All the rest flows from that. Ways to show Love of the Lord is willingness to submit to his will, expressed through repentance and entering into the Covenants he presents before us, such as Baptism, which is the sign of the Covenant of Salvation. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is then given to prepare us to be ready to dwell in God's presence.

Share this post


Link to post

Of note and interest here is that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith used the terms "salvation" and "saved" according to early protestant definitions. As such this presents a strict dichotomy that is the trademark of the Book of Mormon.

Sorry, but I don't quite see it that way.

2 Nephi 9:10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.

It seems apparent to me that EVERYONE is redeemed from death and hell, UNLIKE the protestant model.

Share this post


Link to post

n-low, thank you for your reasoned response. I am game for engaging you further and I hope the feeling is mutual. :P

Can that testimony of Jesus be received at some point in the hereafter?

If not, is it meaningful to teach this principle as though it were required to accept Jesus in this life?

For those who have what the Lord judges to have a proper opportunity to do so, it is required in this life. It is not required in mortality for those who have not had such an opportunity, but will be granted the opportunity in the hereafter, as Missionaries (in the midst of others who have differing opinions) present the message to them (see D&C 138).

But isn't a conversation about the principles of the gospel suppose to be a commentary about all of mankind? Your commentary here may well define the reality for those who have the opportunity to hear and contemplate the message (though I have other issues with this) but what exactly are the salvation requirements for all in this mortality?

Again, what does it mean to be faithful? Faithful to what?

It means to be steadfast and devoted and trusting in Jesus Christ. That he is who he claims to be, and will do what He says he will do, according to the terms He sets.

Again, you are speaking only of those who are familiar with Christ. Isn't this suppose to be a conversation about salvation for all?

But that will be an easy one as the act of being married for eternity will be offered up to all - you know, kind of an automatic pilot and as such, a piece of cake.

Prerequisite doesn't equal ALL the prerequisites. Remaining faithful to one's spouse and keeping the associated Temple covenants are involved. There is most likely a sizable number of individuals who have entered into the covenant of Temple Marriage who probably will not be exalted. It's a minority, but a reality. Not all those offered the opportunity are willing to accept the terms of the Covenant, and choose not to participate.

And now I'm a bit more confused on your stance. Do I understand you to say that breaking one's covenants precludes him/her from exaltation as you have defined it?

Cool beans but the bottom line is I am still unclear about what it will take on our part to get us there? Again, what is the criteria for salvation ...that would require something of us (distinguishing between those things that must happen in this mortality and not simply those ordinances offered to all by default of this mortality)?

Strive to Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. All the rest flows from that. Ways to show Love of the Lord is willingness to submit to his will, expressed through repentance and entering into the Covenants he presents before us, such as Baptism, which is the sign of the Covenant of Salvation. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is then given to prepare us to be ready to dwell in God's presence.

I like that. It resonates for me though it seems to fall quite short of the mark when we talk about salvation principles as as they relate to all of mankind. It seems now we are talking exclusively about salvation principles for the flock so to speak. Isn't there a more universal commentary as the opie seemed to suggest?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...