Jacob Chapter 5

[Honorentheos]

...to mention that oily wine and grape-flavoured olive oil aren't very good.

Grape-flavored olive oil might be ok, but I had a slight physical reaction to "oily wine".

[Sevenbak]

Contrary to popular knowledge, it is highly improbable that Gethsemane means "olive press". You see a gath (winepress) and a beith bad (olivepress) are not at all interchangeable. You can't tread olives, and to use a press on grapes is to produce impossibly bitter wine, not to mention that oily wine and grape-flavoured olive oil aren't very good.

Far more likely that it meant the olive escarpment.

Every reputable bible dictionary I've seen has Gethsemane as meaning oil press.

Geths?mani Hebrew:?? ?????, Aramaic:?? ????, Gath-

[Honorentheos]

The reason I did not post any links is that there are too many to include in a coherent manner. Maybe reading the article(s) in question and seeking confirmation or refutation from other sources would have blunted the concerns that you expressed.

I do appreciate the fact that you are calm and measured in your approach to the debates.

I am going to reference a few links to some of the articles.

Here

Here

There are many others out there also.

Glenn

Thanks, Glenn.

In your first link, the answer to my question is here -

"It is currently assumed that individual oleaster trees showing superior performance for size and/or oil content of fruit were selected empirically and propagated vegetatively as clones, using cuttings that were planted directly or, more recently, grafted onto indigenous oleasters."

It is important to recognize the distinction between cultivated olives (from cuttings) being a part of middle eastern horticulture, compared to the evidence for when grafting was used. The earliest references I could find show Chinese use of grafting very early on, but in the west the first evidence for it is in the writings of the Greeks. It cold be that the Greeks and Persians were grafting olives even earlier, but I did not see any evidence for this in your sources. Also, it is not going to be clear to us that the returning Israelites did not bring grafting technology with them from the Persians during the second temple period.

In effect, this is a lot of speculation right now and not evidence that JS had anything uniquely "right". As Doug and Cinepro pointed out as well, there are other explanations that seem to support JS/19th century author using American horticulture and biblical texts to produce the parable.

But here is a fun exercise for you - given that Christ gave parables of things he and his listeners could see and were familiar with, perhaps you could use this to track down Zenos since it is not actually clear where a pre-600 BCE hebrew prophet would become familiar with grafting technology. Not saying they may not have used it. It just isn't supported yet by actual evidence.

[volgadon]

Every reputable bible dictionary I've seen has Gethsemane as meaning oil press.

Geths?mani Hebrew:?? ?????, Aramaic:?? ????, Gath-

[Glenn101]

But here is a fun exercise for you - given that Christ gave parables of things he and his listeners could see and were familiar with, perhaps you could use this to track down Zenos since it is not actually clear where a pre-600 BCE hebrew prophet would become familiar with grafting technology. Not saying they may not have used it. It just isn't supported yet by actual evidence.

I noted in a former post that Joseph could have taken the idea of grafting from Paul's epistle to the Romans. That is really a more plausible explanation than translating an assumed knowledge of grafting of apples trees to olive trees. Other than the fact that the family may have had orchards sometime in the past is not indication that they did any grafting. There is no textual evidence of such that I am aware of. Pruning can safely be assumed, I would think, and probably propagation using cuttings to build up the orchard. Grafting is possible, but again not attested to by any evidence, just assumed.

However there are many other elements which are covered of in the articles that Joseph would hardly have been aware of. One is the fact that a wild olive tree does not produce a desirable product but a cut from a wild olive branch could be grafted into a cultivated tree and produce good fruit. That is different from apple horticulture.

The prophet Zenos is though to have written his allegory circa 900 BC and though to be a northern Kingdom prophet. Olive horticulture had been practiced in the areas for approximately 6000 years BC, pretty much coincident with that of the Greeks. There is no clear reference that I have found as to exactly when the grafting techniques began to be widespread or where they originated from. The fact that grafting was practiced in China pretty much contemporary could indicate that grafting of olive trees was discovered independently in several areas.

In all of reading I have done, none of the authors of any of the articles gave the impression that they believed olive tree grafting was a relatively new i.e. late Greek technique that did not get around to the Israeli area until 600 BC or later. While I have been able to find anything that asserts unequivocally that grafting was practiced in ancient Israel and the surrounding areas, there also is a dearth of evidence to the contrary.

It does not seem logical to assume a knowledge of grafting on the part of Joseph where there is no textual evidence for it and then assume that grafting was not practiced or known about in Israel because there is no textual evidence.

Glenn

[cacheman]

One is the fact that a wild olive tree does not produce a desirable product but a cut from a wild olive branch could be grafted into a cultivated tree and produce good fruit. That is different from apple horticulture.

Could you provide your source for this please?

Thanks!

[Glenn101]

Glenn101, on 18 July 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

One is the fact that a wild olive tree does not produce a desirable product but a cut from a wild olive branch could be grafted into a cultivated tree and produce good fruit. That is different from apple horticulture.

Could you provide your source for this please?

Thanks!

Here is a link to one article that touches on the subject. There are some others. The Maxwell Institute also has some information. I tried to find a non-LDS source first. This is really a secondary document. I have not been able to find the work by Professors Fischer and Ramsay yet.

Glenn

[cacheman]

Here is a link to one article that touches on the subject. There are some others. The Maxwell Institute also has some information. I tried to find a non-LDS source first. This is really a secondary document. I have not been able to find the work by Professors Fischer and Ramsay yet.

Glenn

Thanks Glenn. Here are the references.

Fischer

Ramsay

I'll check them out...

[Honorentheos]

Here is a link to one article that touches on the subject. There are some others. The Maxwell Institute also has some information. I tried to find a non-LDS source first. This is really a secondary document. I have not been able to find the work by Professors Fischer and Ramsay yet.

Glenn

Here is a bible encyclopedia article that suggest Paul was wrong. They suggest that the analogy is valuable without taking it literally. If true, it continues to point to a 19th century author using biblical texts and their own experience with apples or other grafted fruit.

Reference here

Anyway, it seems that StuddleyG's request has been answered in that the support for Jacob 5 as an "unanswered" issue for critics is, once exampled more closely, a questionable issue in the BoM at worst showing a strong reliance on the Bible as the probable primary source. Or at best, a non-issue to most critics with many unanswered questions for the believer as well. As a bulls-eye, it's a superhuman stretch.

[Humphrey]

The only regions on the American continents with Mediterranean climates where olive culture is economically feasible are the regions of California, Chile, and Argentina.

Sevenbak;

I have always enjoyed the fifth chapter of Jacob because of interest in agriculture and silverculture. You can add with confidence the State of Texas in expanding olive tree research, propagation, and the commercial production of olive oil. http://www.texasoliveoilcouncil.org/ We truly live in a land of promise.

[Glenn101]

Here is a bible encyclopedia article that suggest Paul was wrong. They suggest that the analogy is valuable without taking it literally. If true, it continues to point to a 19th century author using biblical texts and their own experience with apples or other grafted fruit.

Reference here

Anyway, it seems that StuddleyG's request has been answered in that the support for Jacob 5 as an "unanswered" issue for critics is, once exampled more closely, a questionable issue in the BoM at worst showing a strong reliance on the Bible as the probable primary source. Or at best, a non-issue to most critics with many unanswered questions for the believer as well. As a bulls-eye, it's a superhuman stretch.

I had read the bible encyclopedia article, as well as others. Philip Francis Esler in Conflict and identity in Romans: the social setting of Paul's letter on page 304 states "by far the more plausible view is that Paul and his Greek-speaking audience were well aware both of the widespread practice in the eastern Mediterranean of grafting wild olive branches into cultivated trees and of the reason for that practice - to produce more fruit"

Also from the Purdue Horticulture school some more on the age of grafting:

"Grafting is ancient (V

[Honorentheos]

I had read the bible encyclopedia article, as well as others. Philip Francis Esler in Conflict and identity in Romans: the social setting of Paul's letter on page 304 states "by far the more plausible view is that Paul and his Greek-speaking audience were well aware both of the widespread practice in the eastern Mediterranean of grafting wild olive branches into cultivated trees and of the reason for that practice - to produce more fruit"

The question that remains, however, is if it produces "sweet" fruit rather than wild. The evidence from the sources does not seem to support this. The Gee and Peterson source even suggest this would be an unexpected "portent"; a miracle.

Also from the Purdue Horticulture school some more on the age of grafting:

Recently, a cuneiform description of budwood importation for grape has been uncovered from Mari, Mesopotamia (Harris et al. 2002) dated to about 1800 BCE, which confirms Childe's (1958) speculation on the antiquity of graftage.

Breaking down the phrase "cuniform descriptions of budwood importation for grape" does not yield a description of grafting, does it? Perhaps you could clarify this as I only read it to mean cuniform = written, budwood = budding fruit wood, and importation being ambiguous. Are there other occurrences where this can be clarified? Because the greek source was referenced earlier and fits what we've already discussed.

Anyway, it seems to be a stretch to assert as Gee and Peterson do, that JS would have had to read multiple sources to concoct the story rather than translate it. It appears to be an elaboration on biblical sources, and includes odd anomalies such as using vineyard straight from the bible.

It appears to me that to see complexity in the narrative, one has to add it to what exists in the text. For example -

- They say that the use of information that is contained in the probable bible sources mark it as an ancient work. I guess that strikes me as odd. Of course the bible is an ancient text.

- They suggest that the description of "servant" and "servants" has some significance as the master of a vineyard would have many, and the single, they suggest, is a chief steward. Yet no mention of a chief steward is made, and the narrative begins with a master who has old olives (which can get pretty old) who has "a" servant. That seems to be directly from the biblical sources. This just added complexity that the narrative did not contain itself, and glosses over a point that seems to run counter to their suggestions on the topic. (i.e. - not having many servants at any point in the narrative, but having to have the only servant hire more, "a few", to finish the work.)

Anyway, it still doesn't seem like much of a bulls eye so far.

[Glenn101]

Anyway, it still doesn't seem like much of a bulls eye so far.

When I read the Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer books as a kid, I thought they were great adventure fiction, and still do. It wasn't until I aged a little and learned a little more about literature that I was able to appreciate the almost bitter social satire entwined in his stories.

I was told at the first that it was satire, but I did not want to read it as such. I only wanted the adventure.

Glenn

[Honorentheos]

When I read the Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer books as a kid, I thought they were great adventure fiction, and still do. It wasn't until I aged a little and learned a little more about literature that I was able to appreciate the almost bitter social satire entwined in his stories.

I was told at the first that it was satire, but I did not want to read it as such. I only wanted the adventure.

Glenn

Perhaps. My daughter sometimes wonders if the greek gods are real because of reading the Percy Jackson stories.

It seems the common trait between our examples is the developed ability to reason and gain insight in the world rather than just respond emotionally to a story. I suppose we could both argue that reason leads us to our own conclusions, too.

In which case, perhaps we are better served by avoiding these sorts of analogies and instead discuss the information as we can find it to share.

[Glenn101]

Perhaps. My daughter sometimes wonders if the greek gods are real because of reading the Percy Jackson stories.

It seems the common trait between our examples is the developed ability to reason and gain insight in the world rather than just respond emotionally to a story. I suppose we could both argue that reason leads us to our own conclusions, too.

In which case, perhaps we are better served by avoiding these sorts of analogies and instead discuss the information as we can find it to share.

And I suppose that we have pretty much ran the gamut on this one. I may not be any the wiser, but I have learned a few things I was not aware of before.

Glenn

Glenn