Wheels, an Anachronism?

[Ariarates]

Ariarates I thought you were going cold turkey?

I did but my vacation is over now. Currently doing my Q2 accounts and I was back at church today as well, so posting at MADB is OK again :-)

Did a semi-interesting find in a Viennese museum but I have to figure out how to get the pictures from my phone to my laptop. Suffice it to say, I finally found out where Joseph Smith got the inspiration for the Anthon-transcript. Just need a way to get over the minor 100-year gap between the source and JS (the source being 100 years younger than the Anthon-transcript) but I'm sure the critics will find a way around that.

I'll post the pic in the social hall topic when I get the tech side figured out (hey, at least I managed to make a photo with my mobile).

[Zakuska]

Zak,

Straw man: intentional misrepresentation of your opponent's argument.

Reasoning

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
3. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.^[1]
4. Quoting an opponent's words out of context

[Zakuska]

OMG Zak. Where did you find that? I need the link to show those East to West migration theorists that the Polynesians brought the pig to S, America.

Of course... according to the critics... It had to be a post columbian indian slave fleeing from his white master!

[Zakuska]

Excellent article on pre-columbian wheels:

conclusion

In copan honduras the writer observed a sculptured stone

slab with a figure resembling a wheel the doughnut shaped

hoop used in the ball game of the ancient americans indicates

the idea of a circular unit the large reservoirs of the cusco

area of peru are arranged in circular compartments even the

large aztec calendar stone suggests the idea of a wheel.

With the number of wheeled objects that have been found

and the additional wheel llike units that are evident it

seems evident that archaeologic opinion will soon have to recognize

the wheel as an instrument of use in ancient america since the

book of mormon has specifically mentioned chariots which

imply the use of the wheel we shall eagerly await for future

research to uncover more evidence of the practical uses the

ancient americans made of this principle of the

wheel

https://byustudies2....9.2Cheesman.pdf

[Ariarates]

Excellent article on pre-columbian wheels: https://byustudies2....9.2Cheesman.pdf

So, it's been a while since 1969, when this was written (emphasis mine):

With the number of wheeled objects that have been found and the additional wheel llike units that are evident it seems evident that archaeologic opinion will soon have to recognize the wheel as an instrument of use in ancient america since the book of mormon has specifically mentioned chariots which imply the use of the wheel we shall eagerly await for future research to uncover more evidence of the practical uses the ancient americans made of this principle of the wheel.

Has archeological opinion recognized BoM chariots yet, or is Dr. Cheesman still eagerly awaiting future research?

[thesometimesaint]

Ariarates:

The Mesoamericans obviously knew about wheels. Climate unfortunately is not good to the wooden kind. But who knows what the next excavation will turn up.

[Zakuska]

Ariarates:

The Mesoamericans obviously knew about wheels. Climate unfortunately is not good to the wooden kind. But who knows what the next excavation will turn up.

Pretty much the only reason all the stone toys with wheels are showing up is because they were... well... stone which doesn't tend to decay very rapidly. Now those same stone toys had wooden axils which have long since deteriorated. So why would we expect to find large counterpart of them. Surely... the natives werent the Flintstones! There carts would have been made of wood and long since disappeared.

[handys003]

Maybe wheels even though known to exist were not as prized by some rulers. IMO they liked to see their fellow servants suffer by carrying their lordships around on the shoulders. Romans and Chinese had the wheel also yet slaves carried the rich around in lavish transport designed to be carried by hand. More stability so they wouldn't spill the booze sans ego trip.

[Ariarates]

The Mesoamericans obviously knew about wheels. Climate unfortunately is not good to the wooden kind. But who knows what the next excavation will turn up.

I'm not disputing they knew about wheels but they didn't have any draft animals in Mesoamerica so wheels were not used for transportation. Climate has nothing to do with it.

[Ariarates]

Pretty much the only reason all the stone toys with wheels are showing up is because they were... well... stone which doesn't tend to decay very rapidly. Now those same stone toys had wooden axils which have long since deteriorated. So why would we expect to find large counterpart of them. Surely... the natives werent the Flintstones! There carts would have been made of wood and long since disappeared.

No, they didn't make carts because there were no draft animals to pull them. How hard is this to understand? If you have no draft animals, a cart will not enable you to transport more than you could carry anyway, nor faster than you could walk.

[Ariarates]

Maybe wheels even though known to exist were not as prized by some rulers. IMO they liked to see their fellow servants suffer by carrying their lordships around on the shoulders. Romans and Chinese had the wheel also yet slaves carried the rich around in lavish transport designed to be carried by hand. More stability so they wouldn't spill the booze sans ego trip.

Even if it were true that "they liked to see their fellow servants suffer" (how on earth are you going to prove that?), the advantages of wheeled transportation for a society as a whole extend far beyond individual lordships' preferences. This is not even speculation, it is pure fantasy.

[rodheadlee]

Hey Arirates, I'm glad you had a nice vacation. This picture is a 4k year old road (dated by local legend) in a tropical rain forest. It's kept up with chainsaws and machetes by the locals because there is a sacred waterfall at the top of the road. Unfortunately it's not in Mesoamerica. One of my biggest regrets is sailing away from Mexico without going down to check out some ruins. Anyway, if you google Tikal you will find similar terrain and you can see where the jungle meets the landscaped area around the ruins. Mesoamerica consists of a wide variety of terrain depending on elevation, relationship to the coast etc. The area of the limited Tehuantepec theory is definitely rain forest. The Aztec area is more high plains in central Mexico, Mayan area would be mostly rain forest. This is just from memory, you could do a net search and get a better picture. I just don't see wheeled transportation being of much use in a tropical rain forest.

[handys003]

Even if it were true that "they liked to see their fellow servants suffer" (how on earth are you going to prove that?), the advantages of wheeled transportation for a society as a whole extend far beyond individual lordships' preferences. This is not even speculation, it is pure fantasy.

Well as far as attitude of suffering I would say based on the historical context. Humans have prove time and again even today to enjoy the suffering of others. Second many civilizations that did have draft animals such as the Romans, Chinese, and Japanese used such method of travel of transport as a sign of wealth and power. Third I remind you that alpacas and llamas today are still used as draft animals by the locals just as their ancestors did.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.redmanranch.com/images/cartin1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.redmanranch.com/about.htm&usg=__E-u-8LdHkBm7DTB4cgmzOp1HVF8=&h=147&w=310&sz=11&hl=en&start=3&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=0M8J6Zz_AsFGGM:&tbnh=55&tbnw=117&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAlpacas%2Bpulling%2Bcarts%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1

[handys003]

Hey Arirates, I'm glad you had a nice vacation. This picture is a 4k year old road (dated by local legend) in a tropical rain forest. It's kept up with chainsaws and machetes by the locals because there is a sacred waterfall at the top of the road. Unfortunately it's not in Mesoamerica. One of my biggest regrets is sailing away from Mexico without going down to check out some ruins. Anyway, if you google Tikal you will find similar terrain and you can see where the jungle meets the landscaped area around the ruins. Mesoamerica consists of a wide variety of terrain depending on elevation, relationship to the coast etc. The area of the limited Tehuantepec theory is definitely rain forest. The Aztec area is more high plains in central Mexico, Mayan area would be mostly rain forest. This is just from memory, you could do a net search and get a better picture. I just don't see wheeled transportation being of much use in a tropical rain forest.

Hmm...Looks like another Polynesian kings trail to which the Ali'i was carried by his slaves by foot. Got one that cirlces the Big island also. It dates back to 700AD and is still in great condition today in some parts. Most were used for centuries and some of the highways were built on top of them here. Others were chewed up by lava flows. ithink I'll head out today and take some pics of one and post here tonight.

[Ariarates]

I just don't see wheeled transportation being of much use in a tropical rain forest.

Agree, especially without draft animals (as in ancient Mexico) or without wheels (as in the Andes).

[rodheadlee]

Hmm...Looks like another Polynesian kings trail to which the Ali'i was carried by his slaves by foot. Got one that cirlces the Big island also. It dates back to 700AD and is still in great condition today in some parts. Most were used for centuries and some of the highways were built on top of them here. Others were chewed up by lava flows. ithink I'll head out today and take some pics of one and post here tonight.

Yep it was on Nuku Hiva. I don't know the whole legend, it started getting dark and it was a long hike back to the boat. Here is another shot of the same road.

[thesometimesaint]

Ariarates:

You don't need draft animals to pull a cart. Everything from dogs to llamas can be used. Some of the Mormon pioneers even used their own bodies to pull/push handcarts. You are incorrect the climate has everything to do with the survivability of a wooden cart.

[Ariarates]

Well as far as attitude of suffering I would say based on the historical context. Humans have prove time and again even today to enjoy the suffering of others.

I agree but that does not prove that entire societies were deprived of wheeled transportation because some people are sadists. With an equally undocumented appeal to "the historical context" I could surmise that most "masters" prefer their servants/slaves to do their jobs quickly and efficiently instead of making it extra difficult for them because it is so much fun to see them suffer.

Second many civilizations that did have draft animals such as the Romans, Chinese, and Japanese used such method of travel of transport as a sign of wealth and power.

I don't dispute the existence and use of litters in societies with wheeled transportation. I dispute the existence of wheeled transportation in the pre-Columbian Americas and I dispute that their use of litters precluded them from developing wheeled transportation. These two modes of transport are nowhere near comparable or interchangeable in terms of efficiency and practical application. It's ridiculous to assume that a society, if given the choice, would prefer litters over wheeled transportation. But they didn't have a choice because they either had no wheels (as in the Andes) or no suitable draft animals (as is Mesoamerica).

Third I remind you that alpacas and llamas today are still used as draft animals by the locals just as their ancestors did.

Thanks for the reminder. In pre-Columbian times, llamas/alpacas were domesticated in the Andes but not in Mesoamerica. The wheel was known in Mesoamerica but not in the Andes. You see the problem there?

I realize that I keep repeating myself but that's the way it is, at least according to the current body of knowledge about the history of the American continent. Ammon and his buddies preparing the king's horses and chariots just doesn't square with anything we know about that time and place (whatever place you choose as the BoM setting).

[Bernard Gui]

No, they didn't make carts because there were no draft animals to pull them. How hard is this to understand? If you have no draft animals, a cart will not enable you to transport more than you could carry anyway, nor faster than you could walk.

Handcart

Wheelbarrow

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Let us agree there were no wheeled vehicles (other than toys) in Meso-America during BoM times.

Let us agree the only time chariots appear in the BoM is Alma 18, 90 BC (other than Isaiah quotes)

Let us agree that other than 1 Isaiah quote, wheels are never mentioned.

Let us suppose the Lehites did not bring wheels with them from Jerusalem.

Let us suppose the Lehites did not bring chariots with them from Jerusalem.

Let us stipulate that any Lehite information about the Old World came from the Brass Plates.

Now some interesting questions can be asked.

1. Were there drawings of chariots and wheels in the Brass Plates?

2. Were there explicit descriptions of the construction of chariots and wheels in the Brass Plates?

3. After the original colonists died off, when Lehites read about wheels and chariots, what did they picture in their minds?

4. How did the Lehites perpetuate the knowledge of wheels and the construction of chariots?

5. When King Lamoni had his chariot built, what did he pattern it after?

6. When Mormon used the word chariot in that story, what was he describing?

7. Did it have wheels?

8. How do we know?

9. Why do we assume Lamoni's chariot conforms with our modern stereotype of a chariot?

10. Since horses and chariots are never mentioned in Lehite warfare, why are Nephite soldiers portrayed in LDS art as chariot riders ala Cecil B. DeMille?

My answers may differ with yours:

1. No.

2. No.

3. They had no clue.

4. They didn't.

5. Something else.

6. Who knows?

7. No.

8. From the answers to questions 1-5.

9. Good question.

10. Makes for a good story, even though it is inaccurate.

My conclusion (yours may differ):

Lamoni's chariot was something other than our modern stereotype. It probably did not have wheels.

The Lehites did not have wheeled vehicles.

Bernard

[Zakuska]

Ariarates:

You don't need draft animals to pull a cart. Everything from dogs to llamas can be used. Some of the Mormon pioneers even used their own bodies to pull/push handcarts. You are incorrect the climate has everything to do with the survivability of a wooden cart.

You don't even need animals at all. Conquered slaves make great draft animals to pull the kingly chariots. Ever watch the show 300?

[Ariarates]

You don't need draft animals to pull a cart. Everything from dogs to llamas can be used. Some of the Mormon pioneers even used their own bodies to pull/push handcarts.

Of course you can pull a handcart with your own body, but you will never be able to transport more than you could carry (well, maybe some bulkier stuff, but not heavier loads). It takes just as many men to carry a load by hand as it takes to pull a cart with that same load (unless you're going downhill all the way maybe). Making the cart, then represents an extra expense without an increased return. That's why no wheeled vehicles were ever found in the Americas: they weren't made because making them would be a waste of resources in the absence of draft animals and/or wheels. Remember: in the Andes, where they had llama's, they didn't have wheels and in ancient Mexico, where they did have wheels, they didn't have llamas.

You are incorrect the climate has everything to do with the survivability of a wooden cart.

Oh, I'll readily grant you that. My only point was that wooden carts - or any other carts for that matter - weren't made in the Americas for the simple reasons given above. It's not because of the climate that the carts haven't survived, it's because they never existed in the first place.

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

True. That is why I used the Mormon pioneers as the example of the human animal as the power source for carts.

[Ariarates]

You don't even need animals at all. Conquered slaves make great draft animals to pull the kingly chariots. Ever watch the show 300?

Can't say that I did. Ever read about the people who carried Mesoamerican kings around in litters? They were usually the noblemen, the lesser rulers of the empire, not slaves.

[thesometimesaint]

Ariarates:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/wheel4.html

Normally, our first inclination would be to agree that the term