Wheels, an Anachronism?

[ERayR]

The problem is not so much the existence or understanding of the wheel as a means of work, but rather if the Nephites possessed all of the necessary technologies to utilize the wheel. For example, I have a pretty good understanding of the concepts behind a wheel. But I could not produce one either strong or circular enough to use on a wagon. Nor do I have the technology to build an axle or a cart. Had I these technologies, they themselves would leave tell-tale signs in the archaeological evidence. Nothing of the sort exists.

It does not require any great technology to produce a wagon or cart wheel or axle. A forge, hammer and anvil are the primary requirements. We know that Nephi built a forge (bellows) and probably a hammer and anvil to produce ship building tools. These tools would disinigrate after a few years of disuse.

[Ariarates]

Ariarates:

These don't look like millstones to me.

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

Thanks for reminding me of this link, TSS. It was this article that drove the final nail in the coffin of my belief in the BoM as literal history just a few months ago and this is the sentence that did it:

The principle of the wheel was known to ancient Americans, but in the absence of suitable draft animals had no economic importance.

Now, there's nothing spectacular about this sentence (except, maybe, for the OP) but this article was quoted in an utterly ridiculous piece by Michael Ash, where the author tried to prove (1) the use of draft animals and (2) the use of the wheel as a means of transportation. So while trying to make the case for the tapir as a draft animal, Michael Ash quotes this very website in his reference 33:

When the Spaniards arrived, the Native Americans seemed unfamiliar with the wheel. Archaeologists, however, have found over one hundred examples of wheeled artifacts in the Americas. Most of these are pre-Columbian wheeled "toys" from Central America.<a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/#en33">³³

And that's what makes the sentence I quoted at the beginning of my post so funny, because it states the exact opposite regarding draft animals. Prove one point (sort of), disprove the other. But who checks these references anyway... BTW, I've found this a very reliable means to evaluate apologetic literature: just check a few references; it usually only takes about a handful of them to see how intellectually dishonest apologetic "scholarship" really is.

Now, before anybody calls me a cynic, read this paragraph in Michael Ash's piece (so you can see I'm not making this stuff up - I swear I couldn't):

It's also possible that Nephite "horses"--at least when associated with chariots--were among the provisions that King Lamoni needed during his travels (we know that horses were part of the provisions which the Nephites reserved for themselves when fighting the Gadianton Robbers [3 Nephi 4:4]). Perhaps "preparing" the horses and chariots would be like "preparing the chicken and backpack." To modern ears this doesn't suggest that the chicken will carry the backpack but rather than a chicken meal will be prepared to go in the backpack. If Book of Mormon horses were eaten, they may have been one of the provisions loaded on a "chariot" and carried or dragged by men.

"Prepare the horses" means "eat the tapirs"??? Really?

:rofl:

[Zakuska]

Picture of a Mayan ridding fossilized pig that was unkown by the ancient inhabitants of this continent because as everbody knows the Spaniards brought everyone of them because they died out in the last ice age... 10000 years ago.

[John Larsen]

It does not require any great technology to produce a wagon or cart wheel or axle. A forge, hammer and anvil are the primary requirements. We know that Nephi built a forge (bellows) and probably a hammer and anvil to produce ship building tools. These tools would disinigrate after a few years of disuse.

A forge, hammer and anvil would disintegrate after a few years? You are kidding right. Or by few did you mean 10,000?

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A forge, hammer and anvil would disintegrate after a few years? You are kidding right. Or by few did you mean 10,000?

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

Forget that, there are no mentions of anvils or forges. I agree with your post is what I am trying to say.

[cdowis]

Thanks for reminding me of this link, TSS. It was this article that drove the final nail in the coffin of my belief in the BoM as literal history just a few months ago and this is the sentence that did it:

The principle of the wheel was known to ancient Americans, but in the absence of suitable draft animals had no economic importance.

Now, there's nothing spectacular about this sentence (except, maybe, for the OP) but this article was quoted in an utterly ridiculous piece by Michael Ash, where the author tried to prove (1) the use of draft animals and (2) the use of the wheel as a means of transportation.

Are you familiar with the terrain of Mesoamerica? Do you understand that chariots in such an area of mountains, dense forest, and rivers would not be very practical.

Chariots were probably used by the elite and wealthy, and in special situations -- ceremonies, etc. but not used as common transportation. While the Lamanite king rode a chariot to another city, there is no mention that Ammon rode a horse to get to the Lamanites, nor to go out to watch the king's flocks.

The BOM gives no indication that it was a major source of transportation, and only mentioned in the context of chariots (not horseback riding) and food. Nor even they were used in war. The terrain is just not suitable for such extensive use.

I am sorry that you threw away your salvation based on a misinterpretation of the BOM, but that it usually how it happens. How pathetic.

[rodheadlee]

A forge, hammer and anvil would disintegrate after a few years? You are kidding right. Or by few did you mean 10,000?

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

Have you never spent time in a tropical saltwater enviroment? I had some stainless steel rings holding a piece of my sail boat rigging together that broke. I could not find any replacements in Mazatlan so I bought some iron substitutes, they disintegrated in less than a year. Here in Am Samoa I needed some special sized stainless steel bolts, 7 1/2" x 1/2", I had to have them machined at great expense (100.00 US - 2 bolts). 18 months later the bolt I had for a spare, wrapped in plastic and oiled, was obviously not all stainless steel. The head must be some other kind of steel or lost it's properties by being improperly welded as it is disintegrating. It is no surprise to me that no steel or iron artifacts are found anywhere in Central America or any of the tropics for that matter.

[ERayR]

A forge, hammer and anvil would disintegrate after a few years? You are kidding right. Or by few did you mean 10,000?

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

Put a steel hammer and anvil out in a very warm, wet conditions and see how long oxidation takes. I've lost hammers in my southern Idaho fields and in a matter of 2 to 3 years they oxidize to the point of being almost unrecognizable. An animal hide bellows would also not last long under those conditions.

If you don't blieve me conduct your own experimant. Throw a steel hammer with a wooden handle out in your garden and leave it for 2 or three years.

The same place or way he got the ones in I Nephi 17:9-11.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

It was an age where swords were made and an anvil is one of the tools used to beat metal into swords. Tell me how the swords were made for the armies and I may be able to point you in a direction to answer your own question.

[Doug the Hutt]

It's common knowledge by the critics of the BOM that the Indians and aboriginal inhabitants of the Americas were too dumb to know anything about the wheel. Yet they carved 300 ton stones with such precision and transported them over 25 miles up hill and placed them so precisely that a cigaret paper cant fit between them.

One of three stone wheels found at Tiwanaku, Bolivia.

Another found half way up a mountian.

http://home.earthlin.../millwheel.html

Then we have all the Toys with their wheels.

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

Knowledge of the wheel was certianly here during BOM times.

So were the roads.

Zak,

Straw man: intentional misrepresentation of your opponent's argument.

Reasoning

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
3. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.^[1]
4. Quoting an opponent's words out of context

[John Larsen]

Put a steel hammer and anvil out in a very warm, wet conditions and see how long oxidation takes. I've lost hammers in my southern Idaho fields and in a matter of 2 to 3 years they oxidize to the point of being almost unrecognizable. An animal hide bellows would also not last long under those conditions.

If you don't blieve me conduct your own experimant. Throw a steel hammer with a wooden handle out in your garden and leave it for 2 or three years.

The same place or way he got the ones in I Nephi 17:9-11.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

It was an age where swords were made and an anvil is one of the tools used to beat metal into swords. Tell me how the swords were made for the armies and I may be able to point you in a direction to answer your own question.

Do you believe the Arabian peninsula qualifies as "very warm, wet conditions?"

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

Warmth is a factor in rust, but even a small amount of water will rust unprotected iron/steel very quickly. Add in a salt(salty ocean air) and even a few hours can produce rust.

[John Larsen]

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

I want to again return to my question of where Nephi got his anvil. An anvil has two key properties. First it must be harder than the metal you are working with. If it is not harder, the blows used to shape the metal will transfer the energy to the anvil marring its surface and not producing the the desired change in the working metal.

Secondly, it must be of a more precise shape than the metal being worked. The reason you pound the working metal against the anvil is to transfer the anvil shape properties to the metal. So if you want to put a sharp edge on a sword, you need to have a very flat surface on which to work the sword.

So the forging of forging tools is more complex than the forging of common metal tools. Surface tolerances must be tighter and the anvil must be careful constructed for the right hardness and to avoid cracking or breaking under the constant pounding stress.

Again, the question, where did Nephi get his anvil? There is a definite problem in building a blacksmith shop without blacksmith tools to do so. Let alone the skill level, which is a magnitude of order higher to be able to produce an anvil.

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

It doesn't take much to make an anvil.

http://www.metalsmith.org/pub/mtlsmith/V05.3/Hist-anvil.htm

[ERayR]

Do you believe the Arabian peninsula qualifies as "very warm, wet conditions?"

My but your prejudices seem to make you obtuse in the extreme. The Arabian peninsula does not qualify as "very warm, wet conditions, but Meso-America does.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR:

Wadi Sayq looks pretty wet to me.

[ERayR]

ERayR:

Wadi Sayq looks pretty wet to me.

It very well may be, I don't know. I was referring to Meso-America when I wrote about warm, wet conditions. The Arabian peninsula was John Larsen's attempt at diversion when I offered up Nephi constructing a bellows and making tools for ship building in rebutal to his implied assertion that Nephi didn't have the simple tools or a forge, hammer and anvil to manufacture wheels and axles. His assertion IMO are just not true. Just because the majority of our urban dwelling, pampered egocentric self styled experts have lost the ability does not mean it is not possible or even probable. There are still a good many, myself included, if my arthritic joints would let me, who could take a forge, a hammer and anvil and fashom an iron wheel. There are still more, myself included, that could take a few woodworking tools and fashion a wooden wheel and axles. So when those such as John Larsen suggest the need for some superior technological advancement to do so it reveals their lack of understanding and makes one wonder what other things they lack understanding of.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR:

Here's some pictures.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml#geography

Misdirection in this case didn't work too well, as BOTH Wadi Sayq and Mesoamerica met the criteria for hot and wet.

I like being pampered.

[John Larsen]

My but your prejudices seem to make you obtuse in the extreme. The Arabian peninsula does not qualify as "very warm, wet conditions, but Meso-America does.

I guess I was thinking about the forge that Nephi built to build his ship to cross to the Americas.

[John Larsen]

John Larsen:

It doesn't take much to make an anvil.

http://www.metalsmith.org/pub/mtlsmith/V05.3/Hist-anvil.htm

I fail to see in this article where it wouldn't take much for Nephi to construct an anvil. Please point me to the right line.

[John Larsen]

It very well may be, I don't know. I was referring to Meso-America when I wrote about warm, wet conditions. The Arabian peninsula was John Larsen's attempt at diversion when I offered up Nephi constructing a bellows and making tools for ship building in rebutal to his implied assertion that Nephi didn't have the simple tools or a forge, hammer and anvil to manufacture wheels and axles. His assertion IMO are just not true. Just because the majority of our urban dwelling, pampered egocentric self styled experts have lost the ability does not mean it is not possible or even probable. There are still a good many, myself included, if my arthritic joints would let me, who could take a forge, a hammer and anvil and fashom an iron wheel. There are still more, myself included, that could take a few woodworking tools and fashion a wooden wheel and axles. So when those such as John Larsen suggest the need for some superior technological advancement to do so it reveals their lack of understanding and makes one wonder what other things they lack understanding of.

But could you do it in the 6th Century BCE if you also had to build the forge and all of the tools from scratch? And if you knew nothing of modern smithing?

I don't understand your dig about suggesting "the need for some superior technological advancement to do so". Are you suggesting that smiths 2600 years ago had the same skill and ability to produce wheels and such as smiths 100 years ago? It was only lack of motivation and good joints?

[ERayR]

But could you do it in the 6th Century BCE if you also had to build the forge and all of the tools from scratch? And if you knew nothing of modern smithing?

Nephi had already had experience doing this. Go back to INephi and read . The reference is in an earlier post.

I don't understand your dig about suggesting "the need for some superior technological advancement to do so". Are you suggesting that smiths 2600 years ago had the same skill and ability to produce wheels and such as smiths 100 years ago? It was only lack of motivation and good joints?

From your post #7

The problem is not so much the existence or understanding of the wheel as a means of work, but rather if the Nephites possessed all of the necessary technologies to utilize the wheel. For example, I have a pretty good understanding of the concepts behind a wheel. But I could not produce one either strong or circular enough to use on a wagon. Nor do I have the technology to build an axle or a cart. Had I these technologies, they themselves would leave tell-tale signs in the archaeological evidence. Nothing of the sort exists.

I simply responded that the technologies were simple and had by Nephi.

[ERayR]

I want to again return to my question of where Nephi got his anvil. An anvil has two key properties. First it must be harder than the metal you are working with. If it is not harder, the blows used to shape the metal will transfer the energy to the anvil marring its surface and not producing the the desired change in the working metal.

It is obvious that you have little understanding of blacksmithing. First the anvile does not have to be harder than the metal you are working. I have never seen an anvil whose surface was not marred. Metals worked on an anvil are generally heated in a forge to soften them.

Secondly, it must be of a more precise shape than the metal being worked. The reason you pound the working metal against the anvil is to transfer the anvil shape properties to the metal. So if you want to put a sharp edge on a sword, you need to have a very flat surface on which to work the sword.

Secondly anvil does not have a precise shape. It only has to have mass. Believe me from my years of experience working with such tools the surface does not have to be perfectly flat. You are only working a small section at a time and you are doing it with heated metal.

So the forging of forging tools is more complex than the forging of common metal tools. Surface tolerances must be tighter and the anvil must be careful constructed for the right hardness and to avoid cracking or breaking under the constant pounding stress.

I don't know to what you are referring here. Forging tools are tongs to grip the hot metal and a hammer to pound with. The forge itself consists of a bellows or a fan to blow air to make the fuel(usually coal) burn hotter. Older forges consisted of a bellows usually made from leather (animal skins).

Again, the question, where did Nephi get his anvil? There is a definite problem in building a blacksmith shop without blacksmith tools to do so. Let alone the skill level, which is a magnitude of order higher to be able to produce an anvil.

Melt out some iron ore and pour it in a clay mold. Again read the reference in I Nephi. Blacksmith tools are not sophisticated tools.

I have to go and haven't time to continue this right now. But believe me you have some mistaken ideas about blacksmith tools and processes. A good blacksmith is a skilled craftsman but his tools are not precision tools.

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

From the article anvils have been made of flint.

[John Larsen]

John Larsen:

From the article anvils have been made of flint.

Is this what you are suggesting that Nephi did. Is that your thesis?

[John Larsen]

It is obvious that you have little understanding of blacksmithing.

Drop the personal attacks and stay on focus. You have no idea what I know and don't know.

First the anvile does not have to be harder than the metal you are working. I have never seen an anvil whose surface was not marred. Metals worked on an anvil are generally heated in a forge to soften them.

Secondly anvil does not have a precise shape. It only has to have mass. Believe me from my years of experience working with such tools the surface does not have to be perfectly flat. You are only working a small section at a time and you are doing it with heated metal.

Nephi is said to have forged steel swords:

1 Nephi 4:9

And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

2 Ne. 5: 14

And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

Since you are knowledgeable in blacksmithing, you will undoubtedly know that sword making is one of the most difficult of all smithing processes. To get a sword to hold an edge takes lots of care and skill. In fact, as you undoubtedly know, bronze and iron age swords were something of a rarity partially because the difficulty in keeping them both strong and sharp. You will also clearly be aware that the precision of tools and skills is a degree higher, to get the sharp edges of course, than making other iron items like horse shoes.

Likewise, I probably don't need to point out to you that annealing was not used in sword making generally until long after Nephi was dead. You will recall that iron and bronze age weapons were generally worked cold--mostly by just pounding the hell out of the soft metal. And you are undoubtedly aware that the ability to heat iron to the melting point at which it liquefied is much much later.

You will also be aware that there is no archeological evidence that any of this existed in the new world.

I don't know to what you are referring here. Forging tools are tongs to grip the hot metal and a hammer to pound with. The forge itself consists of a bellows or a fan to blow air to make the fuel(usually coal) burn hotter. Older forges consisted of a bellows usually made from leather (animal skins).

I am simply referring to all of the acrumants it would take to forge a steel sword as referenced in the BoM.

Melt out some iron ore and pour it in a clay mold. Again read the reference in I Nephi. Blacksmith tools are not sophisticated tools.

I think you are out on a limb here. To suggest that Nephi was smelting iron is like suggesting that Napoleon was using Sherman tanks.

I have to go and haven't time to continue this right now. But believe me you have some mistaken ideas about blacksmith tools and processes. A good blacksmith is a skilled craftsman but his tools are not precision tools.

I think you would do well to read about this history of blacksmithing and the development of tool making technologies.