Wheels, an Anachronism?

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

I have no idea as to the type of anvil the Nephi used, the scriptures are silent on the subject. However as flint has been used anciently as an anvil. It moves your proposed anachronism to within the realm of possibly.

[cdowis]

You will also be aware that there is no archeological evidence that any of this existed in the new world.

When were steel swords last mentioned in the BOM? How much archeology excavations do we have from that time period. What happens to steel and iron in a tropical forest over several thousand years.

Why did you not think of this before, instead of us pointing out the obvious.

I am simply referring to all of the acrumants it would take to forge a steel sword as referenced in the BoM.

You might want to check this out.

[John Larsen]

cdowis:

The Lindsey article you reference refers to macuahuitl as the swords of the book of Mormon. But this does not square with the passage in 2 Ne. 5: 14 which states that the swords were made after the manner of the sword of Laban which had a golden hilt and a blade of fine steel. I can't image anything further from a macuahuitl.

[LeSellers]

the passage in 2 Ne. 5: 14 ... states that the swords were made after the manner of the sword of Laban which had a golden hilt and a blade of fine steel. I can't image anything further from a macuahuitl.

Length of blade, style of hilt, straight (as opposed to curved) blade, one-handed v. two-handed

[John Larsen]

Length of blade, style of hilt, straight (as opposed to curved) blade, one-handed v. two-handed

[Pahoran]

Length of blade, style of hilt, straight (as opposed to curved) blade, one-handed v. two-handed

[rodheadlee]

from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age

"Iron use, in smelting and forging for tools, also appears in West Africa by 1200 BC.[1][2][3]

In other regions of Europe, the Iron Age began in the 8th century BC in Central Europe and the 6th century BC in Northern Europe."

[John Larsen]

from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age

"Iron use, in smelting and forging for tools, also appears in West Africa by 1200 BC.[1][2][3]

In other regions of Europe, the Iron Age began in the 8th century BC in Central Europe and the 6th century BC in Northern Europe."

According to Wikipedia the machine gun was invented in 1861. We can therefore conclude that the soldiers on the North and South fought with them. That is why battles like Gettysburg were so devastating.

At least it "moves the anachronism into the realm of possibly."

[LeSellers]

One is left to wonder why, if the Nephites had metallurgy and could forge steel they used macuahuitl.

Cost?

Lack of materials at any given time?

Skill in mass production?

To name but a few.

Lehi

[ERayR]

Drop the personal attacks and stay on focus. You have no idea what I know and don't know.

Not meant as an attack but as an observation from the contents of your post it is obvious that you don't have much background in this area. Go to link and scroll down to the picture of a knife maker at work. http://science.howstuffworks.com/sword-making2.htm

Nephi is said to have forged steel swords:

No Nephi is said to have made swords patterned after the sword of Laban. 2 Nephi 5:14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people. That does not mean they were steel swords. It doesn't say what material he used.

Since you are knowledgeable in blacksmithing, you will undoubtedly know that sword making is one of the most difficult of all smithing processes. To get a sword to hold an edge takes lots of care and skill. In fact, as you undoubtedly know, bronze and iron age swords were something of a rarity partially because the difficulty in keeping them both strong and sharp. You will also clearly be aware that the precision of tools and skills is a degree higher, to get the sharp edges of course, than making other iron items like horse shoes.

Since I am knowledgeable in blacksmithing I will not agree that sword making in general is one of the most difficult smithing processes. Damascus blades were very difficult because of the blends of ores used to make the Damask steel. One of the hardest tasks in blacksmithing is forge welding, which was also part of the Damask process. Ordinary iron or bronze blades were much simpler. See photo I directed you to above. As kids we used to pound out swords and knives in ag shop class. Some quite good.

Tools are of no greater precision for good blades. What makes good blades that will hold their edge is the heat treating process.

Likewise, I probably don't need to point out to you that annealing was not used in sword making generally until long after Nephi was dead. You will recall that iron and bronze age weapons were generally worked cold--mostly by just pounding the hell out of the soft metal. And you are undoubtedly aware that the ability to heat iron to the melting point at which it liquefied is much much later.

Annealing is a process of heating and softening cast metal so that it can be worked. After the metal is worked it is then heat treated and hardened, usually through a quenching process with water or oil. Anytime a piece of metal is heated in a forge it is a type of annealing process and forges have been around for several thousands of years.

You will also be aware that there is no archeological evidence that any of this existed in the new world.

What kind of evidence do you want? A General Motors casting plant maybe. I don't think you will find it because the primary components of a forge is a firepan, a bellows (blower) and an air tube (usually animal skins in the early ages). A firepan cn be made out of materials from clay to metal and the belows and air tube usually out of animal skins. All of this does not weather well over centuries in humid hot environments.

I am simply referring to all of the acrumants it would take to forge a steel sword as referenced in the BoM.

I don't know what you mean by "acrumants" so don't know what to say here. I can say that the only sword definantly referenced to be made from steel was the sword of Laban that Nephi brought with him from Jerusalem.

I think you are out on a limb here. To suggest that Nephi was smelting iron is like suggesting that Napoleon was using Sherman tanks.

Maybe you know something I don't about Napoleon's armament but Nephi tells us he had the ability. I Nephi 17:9-11

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

He was smelting some kind of metal here and iron smelting dates from 1600-1150BC and maybe even as far back as 2500BC. See here. http://neon.mems.cmu.edu/cramb/Processing/history.html

I think you would do well to read about this history of blacksmithing and the development of tool making technologies.

Thanks for the advice but I think you would do well to heed your own advice. Not meaning any offence but your lack of knowledge on this subject is very telling.

[cdowis]

cdowis:

The Lindsey article you reference refers to macuahuitl as the swords of the book of Mormon. But this does not square with the passage in 2 Ne. 5: 14 which states that the swords were made after the manner of the sword of Laban which had a golden hilt and a blade of fine steel. I can't image anything further from a macuahuitl.

One is left to wonder why, if the Nephites had metallurgy and could forge steel they used macuahuitl.

Read the article entitled Steel in ancient America? Isn't that an anachronism that disproves the Book of Mormon? You are looking at the wrong article.

Actually, a material that could be called steel was available in Mesoamerica, namely meteoric nickel-iron alloys. Robert J. Forbes in Metallurgy in Antiquity: A Notebook for Archaeologists and Technologists (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1950, p. 402, as cited by John L. Sorenson, "A New Evaluation of the Smithsonian Institution 'Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon,'" FARMS Paper SOR-93, Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1993, p. 17) lists it as "a type of steel" and its presence in Mesoamerica is well known (3 references given by Sorenson, 1993, p. 18). I verified this recently while at the Georgia Tech library, where I found the Handbook of Iron Meteorites (2 vols.) by Dr. Vagn F. Buchwald, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1975. Nickel-iron alloys appear very common in meteorites. Further, I found several examples of meteoric metals that the author compared to man-made steel listed in Volume 2, including haxonite from Canyon Diablo in Arizona (p. 393), a face-centered cubic carbide related to tool steels and stainless steels; kamacite from Tucson, with similarities to hypo-eutectoid steels (p. 1243); and metal from the Kamkas mass (South Africa, I believe) whose structure "is reminiscent of commercial ferritic stainless steel" (p. 1387).

Such meteorite steel would be very limited, and would explain why no mention is made after the book of Jarom.

[John Larsen]

Damascus blades...

Again, we are talking about 600 BCE.

As kids we used to pound out swords and knives in ag shop class. Some quite good.

with tools and technologies circa 600 BCE?

What makes good blades that will hold their edge is the heat treating process.

And how common was this process in 600 BCE?

Annealing is a process of heating and softening cast metal so that it can be worked. After the metal is worked it is then heat treated and hardened, usually through a quenching process with water or oil. Anytime a piece of metal is heated in a forge it is a type of annealing process and forges have been around for several thousands of years.

CFR that this process was used in Jerusalem circa 600 BCE.

What kind of evidence do you want? A General Motors casting plant maybe. I don't think you will find it because the primary components of a forge is a firepan, a bellows (blower) and an air tube (usually animal skins in the early ages). A firepan cn be made out of materials from clay to metal and the belows and air tube usually out of animal skins. All of this does not weather well over centuries in humid hot environments.

Any evidence whatsoever. Discarded bits of metal work. Furnaces stones. Carbon scoring. Coke. Slag. anything.

I don't know what you mean by "acrumants" so don't know what to say here. I can say that the only sword definantly referenced to be made from steel was the sword of Laban that Nephi brought with him from Jerusalem.

Being aware of the developments of steel and weaponry, what is the probability that anyone had a steel sword in Jerusalem circa 600 BCE? What would unbiased scholars say about such things?

Thanks for the advice but I think you would do well to heed your own advice. Not meaning any offence but your lack of knowledge on this subject is very telling.

Let the reader judge between thee and me.

[John Larsen]

Cost?

Lack of materials at any given time?

Skill in mass production?

To name but a few.

Lehi

I think most archeologists would argue that metallurgy was a means to production. It would not be a cost on society but a means of producing wealth.

[LeSellers]

I think most archeologists would argue that metallurgy was a means to production. It would not be a cost on society but a means of producing wealth.

Cost means more than the cash outlays, but the total investment in the output.

If there were limited materials or labor or fuel (low supply) and high demand, the cost would be very high. It just might make more sense to divert those resources into food production, or clothing or whatever else. In times of peace, the cost of defense is always considered too high. In times of war, there is no time (also a cost-inducing resource).

As the Nephites were usually fighting in defense, it was more important to them to build fortifications than expensive weapons.

Anyway, the costs of an obsidian-bladed weapon would always be less than one of steel, at least until Bessemer came on scene.

Lehi

[ERayR]

Again, we are talking about 600 BCE.

no we were talking about processes. You were of the opinion it was a very complicated and difficult process. I was telling you that was only the case for the Damascus blade which came later. Good try at misdirection. .

with tools and technologies circa 600 BCE?

Yes. A forge, an anvil and a hammer.

And how common was this process in 600 BCE?

Read some of the material I directed you to and you wouldn't have to keep asking the same inane questions.

CFR that this process was used in Jerusalem circa 600 BCE.

The process dates from maybe as far back as 2500 BC. Do your own research you are ignoring mine. Why should I dig up any more information than I already have for you to ignore. Again read some of what has been provided before you keep asking the same inane questions and looking so foolish.

Any evidence whatsoever. Discarded bits of metal work. Furnaces stones. Carbon scoring. Coke. Slag. anything.

The process dates from maybe as far back as 2500 BC. Do your own research you are ignoring mine. See above.

Being aware of the developments of steel and weaponry, what is the probability that anyone had a steel sword in Jerusalem circa 600 BCE? What would unbiased scholars say about such things?

I would guess they would be much more receptive than say a very biased LDS critic, who refuses to look at what is posted. See above.

Let the reader judge between thee and me.

So let it be written so let it be done.

[Ariarates]

Are you familiar with the terrain of Mesoamerica? Do you understand that chariots in such an area of mountains, dense forest, and rivers would not be very practical.

I am not personally familiar with the terrain of Mesoamerica. Are you? Regardless, I agree that chariots wouldn't be very practical, not because of the terrain but because there were no wheels and draft animals. All possible candidates to be domesticated as draft animals died out at the end of the last Ice Age on the American continent and the wheel was only known in what is now Mexico but never used in transportation (it didn't even spread to the Inca in the Andes, even though they were the only ones with a suitable draft animal - which didn't spread to ancient Mexico either, by the way). These are the facts as currently understood by science.

Chariots were probably used by the elite and wealthy, and in special situations -- ceremonies, etc.

No, they were not. They didn't exist in the America's at all until the Europeans brought in horses.

While the Lamanite king rode a chariot to another city, there is no mention that Ammon rode a horse to get to the Lamanites, nor to go out to watch the king's flocks.

There were chariots nor horses in the Americas at the time Ammon is supposed to have lived.

The BOM gives no indication that it was a major source of transportation, and only mentioned in the context of chariots (not horseback riding) and food. Nor even they were used in war. The terrain is just not suitable for such extensive use.

I guess there's the answer to my question whether YOU are familiar with the terrain. Horses gave the Spanish a crucial advantage, allowing just a handful of cavalry to slaughter thousands of Indians in a matter of hours. Of course, it takes open terrain for cavalry to be efficient but there is plenty of that in Mesoamerica too, or so I am told, apart from all them mountains, forests and rivers.

I am sorry that you threw away your salvation based on a misinterpretation of the BOM, but that it usually how it happens. How pathetic.

I personally don't believe my salvation depends on believing the BoM to be literal history. Do you think this is pertinent to my salvation?

[Zakuska]

I am not personally familiar with the terrain of Mesoamerica. Are you? Regardless, I agree that chariots wouldn't be very practical, not because of the terrain but because there were no wheels and draft animals. All possible candidates to be domesticated as draft animals died out at the end of the last Ice Age on the American continent and the wheel was only known in what is now Mexico but never used in transportation (it didn't even spread to the Inca in the Andes, even though they were the only ones with a suitable draft animal - which didn't spread to ancient Mexico either, by the way). These are the facts as currently understood by science.

You may want to revise your summary...

[Ariarates]

Zakuska, thanks for that clarification. In my own language, the term "wheel" is used exclusively for wheels as means of transportation; I wasn't aware that any disk-shaped form is considered a "wheel" in English. My point was, as you also pointed out, that the wheel was not used for transportation anywhere in the America's in pre-Columbian times.

[handys003]

Ariarates I thought you were going cold turkey?

[handys003]

Picture of a Mayan ridding fossilized pig that was unkown by the ancient inhabitants of this continent because as everbody knows the Spaniards brought everyone of them because they died out in the last ice age... 10000 years ago.

OMG Zak. Where did you find that? I need the link to show those East to West migration theorists that the Polynesians brought the pig to S, America.

[handys003]

A forge, hammer and anvil would disintegrate after a few years? You are kidding right. Or by few did you mean 10,000?

And where did Nephi get his anvil anyway? This was the bronze age.

Wrong! Your not up to date on current finds by the scientific community.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/toolsbro.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070423100437.htm

[handys003]

John Larsen:

Warmth is a factor in rust, but even a small amount of water will rust unprotected iron/steel very quickly. Add in a salt(salty ocean air) and even a few hours can produce rust.

Ain't that the truth! It is unrelenting. You don't even have to be near the ocean in fact up in the mountains with trades will do nicely.

[handys003]

It very well may be, I don't know. I was referring to Meso-America when I wrote about warm, wet conditions. The Arabian peninsula was John Larsen's attempt at diversion when I offered up Nephi constructing a bellows and making tools for ship building in rebutal to his implied assertion that Nephi didn't have the simple tools or a forge, hammer and anvil to manufacture wheels and axles. His assertion IMO are just not true. Just because the majority of our urban dwelling, pampered egocentric self styled experts have lost the ability does not mean it is not possible or even probable. There are still a good many, myself included, if my arthritic joints would let me, who could take a forge, a hammer and anvil and fashom an iron wheel. There are still more, myself included, that could take a few woodworking tools and fashion a wooden wheel and axles. So when those such as John Larsen suggest the need for some superior technological advancement to do so it reveals their lack of understanding and makes one wonder what other things they lack understanding of.

Khor Kharfot And Kahor Rori (aka Taqah) are situated along the Indian Ocean where the trades bring in moisture and rain all year. The Mountains farther inland trap the moisture, and the resulting buildup of tropical rain occurs along with heavy monsoons such as any tropical island. They are in Oman is where bountiful is projected. When I see the pics it looks as if i'm standing on a Pali in Hawaii. Almost very exact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRqWfFb-AsY

[handys003]

Anyone else have questions on bronze tools such as axes?

http://www.precolumb...ons.com/axe.htm

http://www.precolumb....com/spears.htm

http://www.precolumb...s.com/armor.htm

They forged weapons and tools period. Just many refuse to see the facts because it upsets their perspective that they were to ignorant a civilization and could not compete with the old world. European Colonialistic thinking as usual.

Let me also add the term steel is irrelevant. I finished watching a documentary on the ancient Greeks during Alexanders time. They were the best at making and working with bronze. After examining some of Alexanders weapons. It has been determined that they were as just as equal and on some weapons superior to the steel weapons later produced. In fact to their amazement they were so well made the Greeks weapons that the process they used cannot be reproduced today even with modern machinery. It was on the Discovery Channel on Ancient Archaeology program. Don't ask me to go dig it up. It will rerun again as they all do on the channel.

[cdowis]

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