Honest question for my evangelical friends

[Rob Bowman]

JDave,

Hi there. You wrote:

There is a difference between LDS and Evangelical doctrines on grace&works, but it is not the difference you have been delineating.

Feel free to try to straighten me out. I will need specifics.

You asked:

A few questions to clarify your personal position: Will God save, via grace, somebody who has heard the gospel but does absolutely nothing with respect to it? In other words, will God save someone who believes that Christianity is possible, and neither denies it nor accepts it? Can someone do nothing, and still be saved through grace?

If someone has heard the gospel and has not accepted it, that person is not saved. It isn't my claim that salvation doesn't affect those who are saved. It is my claim that salvation's effects must be distinguished from salvation's cause(s). Hearing the gospel and not responding in faith is the same thing as rejecting it. Choosing not to respond is the same thing as rejection.

You asked:

Also, will God save, via grace, everybody who does not actively and purposefully reject Christ?

No such promise is found in the Bible. God warns that the basis of the Final Judgment will be works (e.g., Rom. 2:6). People who live sinful lives will be judged on that basis, whether or not they have heard the gospel presented and made an explicit decision to reject Christ. The only way that sinners can be assured of escape from the consequences of that judgment that will be based on works is to accept the gift of salvation from that judgment that comes on the basis of God's grace in Christ.

[Rob Bowman]

nackhadlow,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I would like to take a little time to work through it and do some thinking myself before dashing off a reply. I'm saying this just so you'll know I'm not ignoring you.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

Rob,

You are still not getting it, and your anti-Mormon blinders continue to hide your hypocrisy from you.

Your "gospel" is that all you have to do to be saved is accept Christ. You have acknowledged your obedience to your "gospel" has saved you, therefore Christ's atonement is not what saved you but your obedience to your "gospel".

No, this is not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth, even after I explained to you that these kinds of statements do not accurately reflect my position. My obedience to the gospel does not save me. I never said it did.

[David T]

nackhadlow,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I would like to take a little time to work through it and do some thinking myself before dashing off a reply. I'm saying this just so you'll know I'm not ignoring you.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Vance]

Vance,

You wrote:

No, this is not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth, even after I explained to you that these kinds of statements do not accurately reflect my position. My obedience to the gospel does not save me. I never said it did.

Oh, come on Rob,

It is really rather simple. Your "gospel" is that if you accept Jesus, then you are saved.

You say you have obeyed your "gospel".

So indeed, it is your obedience to your "gospel" that has saved you. You don't have to say it, it is OBVIOUS!!!!

Now, excuse me while I continue looking for "works aplenty".

PS,

If it upsets you when people tell you what you believe, may I suggest that you consider Matt 7:12.

[Vance]

How does one obey the truth? How does one obey unrightesousness?

Apparently, there is a way to do NOTHING and by it "obey the truth". I don't know or understand how that works, but there are many an evangelical who claim it can be done, (without actually doing anything).

Apparently, also there is a way to be a profligate sinner and yet not "obey unrighteousness". I don't know or understand how that works either, but there are many an evangelical who claim it can be done.

But hey, just remember that "them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality" are really going to hell because they are . . . gasp . . . "legalistic".

As Paul told Timothy,

Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Oh, wait, I mean,

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

[changed]

The EV's have a point - 99.9999999% of it is grace. Mormons have a point too though.

This is what I wrote up for the Mormon.org site thing, and they ok'd this answer...

I think grace gives us a reason to work. There are some endeavors which we would never begin to attempt because we recognize that success is impossible, and our work would be in vain. It would be futile for me to work towards flying like a bird for example. Even though I would love to fly, I don

[JDave]

Feel free to try to straighten me out. I will need specifics.

I am probably repeating what has been said many times before, but repetition can be beneficial at times.

LDS and Evangelicals both believe that we are saved by the grace of God. LDS and Evangelicals both believe that good works are an essential part of a follower of Christ. The main difference I have seen is simply whether one can do any truly 'good' work before one is already saved. It seems that Evangelicals teach that we can do nothing good until God has saved us and is working within us -- at that point good works will naturally occur. LDS teach that we can do much good of our "own free will" (D&C 58:27), that we will strive to do good inasmuch as we are yearning and leaning toward Him that is Good. Therefore good works can be done before we are saved and are an indication that we are heading down that path. All mankind, Christian or not, can do good works. God working within us will certainly change the scope of what good works we can do.

Therefore we are left with the question of whether accepting Christ is a good thing that we can do of our "own free will" or not. God gives the gift of salvation to some, and not to others. What is the distinguishing characteristic between those two groups? There is one group that willfully chooses to accept Christ and willingly follow Him, and then there is the other group which chooses not to accept Christ. If we claim that the salvation of God is available to all, then the difference between who is saved and who is not rests within the two groups -- and not with God.

You have already claimed that one cannot do nothing and be saved. If one cannot do nothing, then one must do something.

Hearing the gospel and not responding in faith is the same thing as rejecting it. Choosing not to respond is the same thing as rejection.

No such promise is found in the Bible. God warns that the basis of the Final Judgment will be works (e.g., Rom. 2:6). People who live sinful lives will be judged on that basis, whether or not they have heard the gospel presented and made an explicit decision to reject Christ. The only way that sinners can be assured of escape from the consequences of that judgment that will be based on works is to accept the gift of salvation from that judgment that comes on the basis of God's grace in Christ. (emphasis added)

So you are saying that the Final Judgement will be based on works, but that those who accept Christ will bypass that Judgement and never be judged by their works?

In the end we both agree that the only way is to accept the gift. We just quibble about whether accepting the gift is actually doing something or not.

[Storm Rider]

In my Father's house are many mansions. I have never read in the scriptures that the disciples of the Christ get a pass card on the judgement. Do you have a biblcial reference for that or is that something else?

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

If it upsets you when people tell you what you believe, may I suggest that you consider Matt 7:12.

I never do this. I do offer my observations concerning, for example, what the LDS Church teaches in Gospel Principles or in the Articles of Faith. But I never tell a Mormon what he or she personally believes. Nor do I claim that all Mormons believe a particular proposition (there probably is none that commands 100% agreement).

[Rob Bowman]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

In my Father's house are many mansions. I have never read in the scriptures that the disciples of the Christ get a pass card on the judgement. Do you have a biblcial reference for that or is that something else?

Try John 5:24; Romans 3:19-26; 8:1.

Believers will stand before Christ on the day of judgment (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). However, they will be given eternal life, not on the basis of their works, but on the basis of their names being written by grace in the Lamb's book of life (Rev. 20:12-15).

Sorry for the brevity of this answer--it's late. I might be able to go into more detail tomorrow.

[Anijen]

Stormrider wrote;

... I have never read in the scriptures that the disciples of the Christ get a pass card on the judgement. Do you have a biblcial reference for that or is that something else?

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

Try John 5:24; Romans 3:19-26; 8:1.

Believers will stand before Christ on the day of judgment (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). However, they will be given eternal life, not on the basis of their works, but on the basis of their names being written by grace in the Lamb's book of life (Rev. 20:12-15).

Sorry for the brevity of this answer--it's late. I might be able to go into more detail tomorrow.

The scriptures you cite do not say the disciples get a pass. In fact I read it as, all get judged, especially from the very verses you quote. 2 Cor. 5:10 and Rev. 20:12-15 seem to argue against your point and support Stormriders.

Rev 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[Anijen]

When Paul writes "we all..." I assume he is placing himself in that group. Paul was a disciple, he doesn't get a pass on judgment, he will also be judged.

[Storm Rider]

As a student of religion for many years, I have never understood the Bible to indicate there is a pass on the judgement for believers or disciplees of Christ. The scriptures are clear when taken in context that all will be judged on their works; none. What is the purpose of having many mansions in God the Father kingdom? So that judgment can be made and recompense given out. We all might be in "heaven", but there will certainly be different levels or mansions. It is odd that Christ would say many if he really meant one mansion in his Father's house. If there is no judgement there is no need to stand in front of the judge.

Taking things in context is the only way to understand the Bible; you can make it say anything you want if you just strip specific passages out. Grace and Works, as a dicotomy, is only possible when you ignore certain verses. Baptism and repentance also are often overlooked by ignoring some verses while focusing on others.

[Vance]

Vance,

You wrote:

PS,

If it upsets you when people tell you what you believe, may I suggest that you consider Matt 7:12.

I never do this.

Humm,

Really?

Third, in the individual sense of salvation (meaning exaltation), LDS doctrine maintains that the atonement does not actually save anyone or eliminate the "debt" of their sins.

Rob,

It was your telling us what we believe (and getting it wrong) that started this whole mess.

[Vance]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

... I have never read in the scriptures that the disciples of the Christ get a pass card on the judgement. Do you have a biblcial reference for that or is that something else?

Try John 5:24;

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Well why not include verses 28-29?

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 3:19-26; 8:1.

6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Oops, wrong verses.

Believers will stand before Christ on the day of judgment (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). However, they will be given eternal life, not on the basis of their works, but on the basis of their names being written by grace in the Lamb's book of life (Rev. 20:12-15).

Sorry for the brevity of this answer--it's late. I might be able to go into more detail tomorrow.

Humm,

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rob,

I don't think those verses say what you think they say.

Edited to add,

Jesus taught, (Matt 2:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Lightbearer]

Several accusations have been leveled at Mormons or LDS, that we believe we are saved by our works. Let me now instead of arguing over Bible passages let me quote just a few scriptures from exclusively LDS scriptures to show what we believe:

(D&C 14:7) "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

It is very plain that we do not believe that eternal life is anything other than a gift. Now as for requiring us to keep His commandments, we do not gain salvation for doing so, or we do not "buy our salvation" as stated here:

Mosiah 2:20-25) "I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another

[bluebell]

Rob,

I realize you are busy but i would appreciate an answer to the discussion that we were having. You asked me some questions which i answered and i asekd you some in return in my last post to you. I'm guessing that you forgot, with all the other posts directed at you, since i don't believe you would ignore our discussion on purpose.

I'm guessing that you have a point in asking me the questions that i did, and i am interested to learn what it was.

Thanks.

[Rob Bowman]

Bluebell,

It

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

When I wrote that "LDS doctrine maintains that the atonement does not actually save anyone or eliminate the 'debt' of their sins," I was not telling you (Vance) what you (Vance) believe. Nor was I saying what all Mormons everywhere believe. I was stating what LDS doctrine, as stated in your scriptures, the pronouncements of your prophets, and your religion's official doctrinal instruction manuals, maintains.

[Rob Bowman]

Anijen,

You wrote:

The scriptures you cite do not say the disciples get a pass. In fact I read it as, all get judged, especially from the very verses you quote. 2 Cor. 5:10 and Rev. 20:12-15 seem to argue against your point and support Stormriders.

"Getting a pass" was his wording, not mine. I affirmed explicitly that believers will stand before Christ on the day of judgment.

[David T]

Very interesting. This isn

[Vance]

Vance,

When I wrote that "LDS doctrine maintains that the atonement does not actually save anyone or eliminate the 'debt' of their sins," I was not telling you (Vance) what you (Vance) believe. Nor was I saying what all Mormons everywhere believe. I was stating (incorrectly) what LDS doctrine, as stated in your scriptures, the pronouncements of your prophets, and your religion's official doctrinal instruction manuals, maintains (which you cherry picked and misrepresented).

Well, since I am a believer in LDS doctrine, you were indeed telling me what I believe.

Unfortunately you were incorrect then as you are now.

[Vance]

I have seen Mormons on this forum argue that the repentant thief had already been baptized, although of course we have no evidence that he had.

As usual, you weren't paying attention.

What happened is an EV made the claim that the thief had NOT been baptized.

You have taken demands for evidence of that claim as an argument that the thief had already been baptized.

[bluebell]

Bluebell,

It