Honest question for my evangelical friends

[Mudcat]

1) I've explained how Mormons justify many of Paul's references to grace. How do evangelicals explain passages like James 2?

Well Blooit, I don't see the statements from Paul or James should be given primacy over the other. I don't think they are contradictory either. I think they are complimentary of each other. I think we do better understanding what they mean taken in tandem, than taking one apart from the other.

2) My friend cited John 6:65 several times but I really couldn't get how this related to saved by grace? Is it that grace comes from the Father? Please help.

As I understand it, salvation comes from our accepting the witness of the Holy Spirit. Even though we can choose to accept this gift, we must understand that it is a gift. It isn't something we come by on our own. If it is given by the Father to us, it certainly wouldn't be given upon our own merit, rather the merit of Christ.

3) Leaving out your doubts about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and everything else about my faith, from a purely biblical perspective (and coming form someone who reads the Bible each day), isn't the Mormon explanation just as reasonable as the evangelical position?

This is where the gap is between you and I, Blooit. If I were to remove all things that pertained to the CoJCoLDS and examined the skeletal doctrine that remained that we could extract from the Bible, I am not sure what you would or wouldn't be. My gut would say, your doctrine would fall in line with John Wesley, excluding infant baptisms of course. I could be quite wrong on the matter. If such were the case, I would think we would likely be on the same page in many respects.

Don't say no just because of tradition or what your pastor said, I mean really, just looking at The Word, doesn't it have as much validity?

My main disagreement is that the two statements are contradictory. I think if we could come to an agreement that they aren't contradictory, then a fruitful discussion would be likely.

I mean is avoiding the works passages any less "wresting" than modern revelation and biblical errancy seem to be to you?

I don't think I avoid either but also I don't claim to have my theology perfect on either matter. I do my best (most of the time anyways).

Regards,

Mudcat

[Paloma]

I think the biggest difference between many LDS and non-LDS Christians is our disagreement about how God requires us to show our faith through our works and not whether or not showing our faith through our works is required at all.

Bluebell, regarding how God requires us to show our faith, do you have in mind that LDS believers see accepting and adhering to Temple ordinances and the Word of Wisdom as the essential 'works' pleasing to God and necessary for salvation?

If so, then an LDS believer would see non-LDS Christian 'works' and obedience as unable to please God and effect salvation, it would seem.

Perhaps I've misunderstood the difference in the 'how' of expressing our faith through works. In any case, I'd be interested in hearing your further thoughts.

As for the OP's question, I agree with Heartleap's answer above, and also with Mudcat's view that Paul and James' words are complementary rather than contradictory.

It was mentioned above that Paul stresses faith (over works) in an especial way in Romans. I think that Galatians has Paul's most forceful teaching regarding the primacy of faith. In Galatians, Paul is very clear that relying on works for salvation is wrong-headed (e.g. Gal 2:15,21; 3:3-5). However, addressing this issue in such a strong way does not mean that Paul saw works as useless. Elsewhere, he talks about the value and necessity of works (e.g. Philippians 2:12-13; Phil 3:12).

[blooit]

Well Blooit, I don't see the statements from Paul or James should be given primacy over the other. I don't think they are contradictory either. I think they are complimentary of each other. I think we do better understanding what they mean taken in tandem, than taking one apart from the other.

As I understand it, salvation comes from our accepting the witness of the Holy Spirit. Even though we can choose to accept this gift, we must understand that it is a gift. It isn't something we come by on our own. If it is given by the Father to us, it certainly wouldn't be given upon our own merit, rather the merit of Christ.

This is where the gap is between you and I, Blooit. If I were to remove all things that pertained to the CoJCoLDS and examined the skeletal doctrine that remained that we could extract from the Bible, I am not sure what you would or wouldn't be. My gut would say, your doctrine would fall in line with John Wesley, excluding infant baptisms of course. I could be quite wrong on the matter. If such were the case, I would think we would likely be on the same page in many respects.

My main disagreement is that the two statements are contradictory. I think if we could come to an agreement that they aren't contradictory, then a fruitful discussion would be likely.

I don't think I avoid either but also I don't claim to have my theology perfect on either matter. I do my best (most of the time anyways).

Regards,

Mudcat

Thanks Mudcat - good stuff

[rockslider]

THere is no such thing as the "LDS HG". There is only the HG. We might beleive different things about the HG but they are the same HG.

According to one Doctorate dissertation, Talmage developed the currently held Mormon beliefs on the HG. They differed before that period.

http://www.mormonapo...iods-of-change/

[Heartleap]

There is no "LDS baptism" as far as we're concerned; rather, it's the same baptism as that offered by John, who was a legal administrator of that ordinance. The difference between ours and everyone else's is that we view ours as being legal. Baptism is an ordinance that binds in Heaven and on Earth. Records must be kept and the administrators of baptisms and confirmations be lawfully ordained.

Anciently, the rites in the Law of Moses were administered by the Levites. The Levites were also ordained to their offices and they were the only ones who could legally handle and move the Ark. Since there were no Levites who accompanied Lehi and his family, we know they held the higher priesthood (see Alma 13).

The idea that anyone can administer baptism is popular with evangelicals and other Protestants. I've often wondered what would happen if a father asked his pastor if he could baptize his children. It might fly with many evangelicals, but I don't suspect a Methodist or non-denominational minister would agree. In the end, it all comes down to authority.

The LDS do not accept the baptism of other churches so that is why I called it the LDS baptism and I was baptized once LDS and then again later as a new commitment to Christ in another faith. I have mostly attended nondenominational churches the last 18 years. They have had no problem with Fathers baptizing their own children. The method is not much different than the LDS except they ask the person if they believe and the person answers. and they baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in a baptismal font, but it does not matter if there foot sticks up out of the water like my LDS baptism did. Methodist I am not familiar with. I will just agree to disagree with LDS having the only authority.

Heartleap...

[Heartleap]

THere is no such thing as the "LDS HG". There is only the HG. We might beleive different things about the HG but they are the same HG.

But is the Holy Ghost you believe in, God? The one I believe in is. But I do agree there is only one, but how we intrepret and experience him is different.

Heartleap...

[coolrok7]

Hi blooit, I'm presently in Oberammergau, Germany to view the Passion Play of Jesus. The town puts the play on every ten years since the 1600's as the result of a vow made to God. This play is the resulting response of the town after experiencing the black plague that had engulfed them at the time.

(I

[UpperDarby]

UpperDarby, on 03 June 2010 - 02:00 AM, said:

I then was very stern with him in telling him that the coffee and cigarettes needed to stop, for partaking of them breaks a commandment set by God (Word of Wisdom).

Keeping the word of wisdom is only a covenant for LDS. He is breaking no commandment by partaking of those substances himself as he has never covenanted to obey that commandment and a person cannot sin in ignorance.

I disagree. For you know smoking destroyes your body, and that it is harmful to those around you, it is slow suicide. No one, whether they've made a covenant with God or not, can justify smoking as not being a sin. We all have a conscience.

God speaks to your conscience with coffee drinking too. It stains your teeth and makes you moody, effecting how you treat others. For me, I pretty much obeyed the WoW without any knowledge of it being a revelation from the prophet 10 months prior to me knowing any thing about God's true church. Coffee, no matter what side your faith is on, whether your LDS, evangelical, or agnostic, is obviously harmful to your body- making it a sin. Anyone whom believes coffee isn't bad for you, and some times coffee drinkers argue it is good for you, are fooled by the precepts of men and/ or the devil.

[bluebell]

I disagree. For you know smoking destroyes your body, and that it is harmful to those around you, it is slow suicide. No one, whether they've made a covenant with God or not, can justify smoking as not being a sin. We all have a conscience.

Eating a lot of fat and sugar also destroys your body, but i'm assuming that you don't go around to obese people with hamburgers and tell them sternly to stop sinning.

God speaks to your conscience with coffee drinking too. It stains your teeth and makes you moody, effecting how you treat others.

Drinking coffee affects how you treat others? Do you have any references to back up that assertion?

For me, I pretty much obeyed the WoW without any knowledge of it being a revelation from the prophet 10 months prior to me knowing any thing about God's true church. Coffee, no matter what side your faith is on, whether your LDS, evangelical, or agnostic, is obviously harmful to your body- making it a sin. Anyone whom believes coffee isn't bad for you, and some times coffee drinkers argue it is good for you, are fooled by the precepts of men and/ or the devil.

Great for you. That man, however, is not sinning by drinking coffee or smoking, unless the H.G. has told him that he is.

[bluebell]

Bluebell, regarding how God requires us to show our faith, do you have in mind that LDS believers see accepting and adhering to Temple ordinances and the Word of Wisdom as the essential 'works' pleasing to God and necessary for salvation?

Perhaps I've misunderstood the difference in the 'how' of expressing our faith through works. In any case, I'd be interested in hearing your further thoughts.

What i mean is, few Christians believe that a person can literally do nothing and be saved. That means that for many lds and non-lds Christians the difference is in what we believe God wants us to 'do'.

Like you said, LDS believe that God wants us to make covenants with Him in the temple if we are able while some non-lds christians believe that the covenants made at baptism are the only covenants He cares about.

The work in question-covenants-are the same for both groups of people but the 'doing' part is different.

If so, then an LDS believer would see non-LDS Christian 'works' and obedience as unable to please God and effect salvation, it would seem.

Perhaps. It would probably be similar to the ways that many non-lds Christians see LDS 'works' and obedience as being displeasing to God and unable to effect their salvation.

I think both groups largely assume that God has a specific way that He approaches our 'works' and both groups, as a whole, assume that nothing done outside of the way that God wants it done can completely please God in the same way that doing it the way He says to do it can.

[ACW]

You are saved if your heart is made new by Christ.

Like I said "the here and now".

A one time simple prayer can, but does not always begin a series of event's in a persons spiritual life. It is the true intent of the person that determines whether he is saved.

So it is just assumed?

The prayer is useless if he does not truly want to believe.

Then why say it in the first place?

If he truly believes he will then have evidence of his faith by what he does with it.

"by what he does with it"...ie actions, which is coming pretty close to showing "faith by works".

Lip service does no good and God is not blind. Are works required? no they are just the evidence of our faith. We can not add to the price that Christ paid for us.

Heartleap...

I think we have a different interpretation of "works". LDS do have a lot of "squares to fill" but doing so doesn't guarantee salvation(which is so misunderstood and misrepresented by Christians). They may help when times get tough here in mortality and, I agree, God is not blind, hence, He knows who is filling those "squares" and why. So salvation, being "saved", to live in God's presense, won't be known till after Judgement day.

[Heartleap]

Like I said "the here and now".

So it is just assumed?

Then why say it in the first place?

"by what he does with it"...ie actions, which is coming pretty close to showing "faith by works".

I think we have a different interpretation of "works". LDS do have a lot of "squares to fill" but doing so doesn't guarantee salvation(which is so misunderstood and misrepresented by Christians). They may help when times get tough here in mortality and, I agree, God is not blind, hence, He knows who is filling those "squares" and why. So salvation, being "saved", to live in God's presense, won't be known till after Judgement day.

I do not believe that there are no works with faith, it is a Bible scripture. I just spent the last nine hours in worship and I know that to live in his presence is now. That the squares to fill are love, mercy and forgiveness. He handed me a key tonight and said I had to forgive everyone to use it and then before me I saw all the things I did not want to forgive and then he told me that if I did not forgive then he could not forgive either. I knew that I had to give up the deep seeded things I had tucked away and I fully forgave and he handed me the Key, and the door it went to was big and the glory behind it was amazing. For ever I am changed by his presence. I have no worries about judgment day.

Heartleap...

[ACW]

I do not believe that there are no works with faith, it is a Bible scripture. I just spent the last nine hours in worship and I know that to live in his presence is now. That the squares to fill are love, mercy and forgiveness. He handed me a key tonight and said I had to forgive everyone to use it and then before me I saw all the things I did not want to forgive and then he told me that if I did not forgive then he could not forgive either. I knew that I had to give up the deep seeded things I had tucked away and I fully forgave and he handed me the Key, and the door it went to was big and the glory behind it was amazing. For ever I am changed by his presence. I have no worries about judgment day.

Heartleap...

Being blessed with the presence of the Holy Spirit is a gift for righteous living here in mortality. Those "squares" are not just love, mercy, and forgivenss, they also include necessary ordinances and obedience.

I admire anyone who can live in this world of temptation, strife, ect., rise above the influence and live close to the Spirit. For the righteous it will be a GREAT day and for the not righteous it will be a terrible day. Mercy and Grace will be for those who sincerely strive to be righteous in spite of falling short...and God knows who they are. Who will live in His presence when mortality is over will not be known till after Judgement day.

Of course there can be 2 save's. One being "saved" for earthy existance, accepting Christ, etc., and the other being "saved" for eternity after Judgement.

[ERayR]

But we can not judge a person by our own standards, to our own master we stand or fall. Non Mormons do not see the Word of Wisdom as a commandment or attending Church on Sunday. So if someone is drinking a cup of coffee in front of you and they see it as a normal every day food, is it right to judge their Heart towards God? Our job is to love them and look past any perceived imperfections. No one is perfect and so we all have our grey areas before God. I know obedience is an expression of our love for God but not all have the same way to express our obedience.

Heartleap...

This is what is wrong with the whole conversation. It is not my place to judge anyone else for their salvation. I can and should be judging their actions as they influence my actions but for no other reason. My judgements of anothers actions has no bearing on their salvation but very well might have bearing on my salvations. That is not to say our respective actions are not important to our own salvation but that it is not my place to judge anothers salvation. Way beyond my paygrade. That said each of our actions(works) are important to our own standing.

[ERayR]

Problem is how much obedience is enough to save you?

Heartleap...

Obedience does not save you. Christ saves you. Obedience is the fruits of faith.

Incidentally when we are speaking saved we may be talking past each other.

[Heartleap]

Obedience does not save you. Christ saves you. Obedience is the fruits of faith.

Incidentally when we are speaking saved we may be talking past each other.

I agree, that is the point.

Heartleap....

[ACW]

This is what is wrong with the whole conversation. It is not my place to judge anyone else for their salvation. I can and should be judging their actions as they influence my actions but for no other reason. My judgements of anothers actions has no bearing on their salvation but very well might have bearing on my salvations. That is not to say our respective actions are not important to our own salvation but that it is not my place to judge anothers salvation. Way beyond my paygrade. That said each of our actions(works) are important to our own standing.

Very well said...

[ERayR]

I agree, that is the point.

Heartleap....

That is also LDS doctrine. Not very well expressed at times and by some people but it is LDS doctrine expressed quite eloquently throughout the Book of Mormon.

[Paloma]

Further thoughts about grace and works.

I regret that non-LDS Christian believers are often seen to believe an easy (or 'cheap grace') Gospel that centres on the Sinner's prayer and forgiveness, and that's all there is to it.

And I regret that LDS believers are often judged for depending on 'works' to get to the Celestial kingdom.

I think that both views are partly true, but terribly skewed. I think both assessments miss the mark for what is true of committed Christian believers on each side.

Each of us (LDS and non-LDS Christian alike) is committed to helping bring about Christ's Kingdom. It's not just about 'getting it right' and 'being safe' for ourselves.

In our separate ways, we are honouring God, rejoicing in our relationship with Him and in partnering with Him to accomplish His desire for the world and for eternity.

[Lance in TX]

Problem is how much obedience is enough to save you?

The problem is definitions. LDS and Non-LDS define things a little differently.

I have talked to a LOT of non-LDS and was one at one point in time (LDS since 1994).

I am going to define some of the terms used by LDS and non-LDS as I understand them and maybe this will help explain why there are so many "discussions" between LDS and non-LDS. Until people use the SAME definition for the SAME words, the "discussions" will continue and will continue to be confrontational... These definitions are from my studying, understanding, praying for knowledge, discussions, etc. Some of these might be defined differently by other LDS. "Your mileage may vary"

There are BIG differences between

[blooit]

The problem is definitions. LDS and Non-LDS define things a little differently.

I have talked to a LOT of non-LDS and was one at one point in time (LDS since 1994).

This is important, but I would argue that the differences in definitions are nearly as strong from Protestant to Protestant and from Evangelical to Evangelical.

[Lance in TX]

This is important, but I would argue that the differences in definitions are nearly as strong from Protestant to Protestant and from Evangelical to Evangelical.

I agree that there are those differences that you state, but they are not as different as LDS <-> non-LDS differences, at least that is how I have found it to be.

[Heartleap]

I agree that there are those differences that you state, but they are not as different as LDS <-> non-LDS differences, at least that is how I have found it to be.

So would it be possible to agree to disagree on theology and religious right and come hand in hand in unity with the main goal to honor and love God and hold each other up and cheer each other on as we step into the unknown realms of what God is bringing down in these last days? I would love to see Gods Glory hit every church today.

Heartleap...

[Lance in TX]

So would it be possible to agree to disagree on theology and religious right and come hand in hand in unity with the main goal to honor and love God and hold each other up and cheer each other on as we step into the unknown realms of what God is bringing down in these last days? I would love to see Gods Glory hit every church today.

Heartleap...

Heartleap,

I already do that with the non-LDS that I know. Unfortunately, most of the time the non-LDS in my area cannot do that. Since we are non-Creedal they do not consider us Christian and go out of their way to prove how "un-Christian" we are.

[Lance in TX]

So would it be possible to agree to disagree on theology and religious right and come hand in hand in unity with the main goal to honor and love God and hold each other up and cheer each other on as we step into the unknown realms of what God is bringing down in these last days? I would love to see Gods Glory hit every church today.

Heartleap...

One other thing to keep in mind when you are talking about LDS is that being LDS is not just a religion: It is a complete lifestyle, It is a complete culture.

I know many non-LDS also live their religion as completely as most LDS, so please, I am not trying to put them down or lessen their beliefs.

I do know that MANY non-LDS look at religion as a Sunday only thing. My extended family (Mom, Sister, Dad, etc) are this way. Sunday/Holiday Christians.

When you talk to most LDS, it becomes their life. Many non-LDS cannot understand how the LDS religion redirects your life into a life focused on Family, Christ, Church, and Government. Reading over the Articles of Faith (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1) would help those non-LDS to understand us a little more.