NDE's

[cdowis]

Intersting. Even somone with schizophrenia who becomes a serial killer?

Schizophrenia probably has an organic basis -- it is a medical condition. One who lost an arm or leg, those who have medical and physical problems will be made whole in the resurrection.

The BOM tells us that the atonement of Christ covers the sins of not only children, but also those who are not responsible for their acts.

[Nofear]

I had an NDE. I wasn't aware of what I was wearing, but I could see me down on the gurney in the hospital, I could see fire and police vehicles out the window of the room I was in. I was straped down on the gurney, I couldn't have seen out the window if I was still in my body. I didn't see any beings, I just remember thinking I really messed up.

Thanks for sharing this. From what little I understand, this is a fairly typical NDE. As you note, you didn't notice what you were wearing.

While potentially a different subject, you bring up another very interesting aspect of NDE's. In near death experiences where individuals see their body -- they don't see other spirits standing around. There are plenty of experiences where later they see relatives, beings of light, cities, go on a "tour", etc. But... at the point where the individual is floating above their body, there doesn't appear to be any account of spirit beings who just happen to be there -- irrelevant bystanders as it were.

Why is this potentially significant? Brigham Young taught that the spirit world is co-local with our physical world. Spirit bodies move around space and time*. In the room that I am in right now typing this message on a computer, I would not be surprised in the least if my eyes were opened up to see beyond the veil that I would see beings in the same room doing stuff -- talking, writing, carrying a box, whatever. Yet, invariably, when a person dies and they are presumably on the "other side" they don't see those spirit beings -- not until later.

This tells us that things are a bit more complex than a simple physical world + spirit world model. Making sense of that complexity is kind of hard though given the paucity, reliability, and sometimes inconsistency of the data. Ah well.

* Lots of people try to say time doesn't exist in the spirit world but that is philosophical nonsense.

[Nofear]

I know this sounds a little strrrraaaannngggeee, but... I remember reading in one of those NDE books about someone who recorded that he (or she) saw these ancient looking looms that were weaving some type of cloth that seemed to literally be made out of light. I don't know if I believe that or not, but the description was interesting.

Not strange at all, at least not to me. Clothes don't just pop out of no where -- creatio ex nihilo. There are buildings in the spirit world. They have to be made -- the rock quarried and shaped. Gardens have to be planted and tended, walkways paved. Food is tricky. From what little I've read I see very little about food.

What might seem a little strange is why would they use an "ancient" loom. I'm biased to the preconception that the spirit world as very high tech. Maybe it only looked ancient, maybe it was a hobby. /shrug

One thing key thing that scientists have never been able to duplicate or explain about the NDE is when the spirit actually leaves the vicinity of their body and travels to another location and is able to report back what was being said or happening in an area that they couldn't possibly have seen or heard from where their body was.

This is one of the reasons I find the model of a NDE's being a pure mental construction hard to swallow (albeit some may be). Several here seem to favor a kind of hybrid model -- some of what they see is reality and some is a mental interpretation only that is not very reflective of reality (everything we see is a mental interpretation, of course). But, when one adopts that model where and how to draw the line as to what is what becomes very difficult.

[Lamanite]

* Lots of people try to say time doesn't exist in the spirit world but that is philosophical nonsense.

How come? (I'm not baiting you.)

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Nofear]

How come?

Perhaps the simplest and best (and perhaps most fundamental) way to think of time is as a sequence of events. If time is a sequence of events then without time there is no sequence of events. And without a sequence of events nothing can happen. Remove "time" from the equation and absolutely nothing can occur. But, we know that all kinds of stuff is happening in the spirit world -- therefore there is some kind of "time" (see disclaimer) there.

Disclaimer: Time is a very big mystery in the philosophy of physics. We really don't have any fundamental understanding of time. One the one hand it appears in our equations as a perfectly continuous variable (and hence not describable as simply a sequence of events) but on the other hand, the flow of time is different for every single observer (my clock ticks differently than yours) so there is no single universal time. In the end, we currently use time as a pragmatic and good enough variable without actually knowing what it fundamentally is.

[Lamanite]

Perhaps the simplest and best (and perhaps most fundamental) way to think of time is as a sequence of events. If time is a sequence of events then without time there is no sequence of events. And without a sequence of events nothing can happen. Remove "time" from the equation and absolutely nothing can occur. But, we know that all kinds of stuff is happening in the spirit world -- therefore there is some kind of "time" (see disclaimer) there.

Disclaimer: Time is a very big mystery in the philosophy of physics. We really don't have any fundamental understanding of time. One the one hand it appears in our equations as a perfectly continuous variable (and hence not describable as simply a sequence of events) but on the other hand, the flow of time is different for every single observer (my clock ticks differently than yours) so there is no single universal time. In the end, we currently use time as a pragmatic and good enough variable without actually knowing what it fundamentally is.

I was wondering if that was what you were getting at.

Could it be that both speed and spatial relativety account for the disparity? One could perceive there being no time or infinite time? Just some crazy nonsense talk.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[alter idem]

Suddenly, I was no longer accelerating upwards. While I still squinted from the extreme brightness of the light, my eyes began to adjust to it. I began to notice thick white puffs of clouds continuously moving about. A breeze from the moving clouds gently blew the lightweight, long, flowing garment that I was now wearing. I could also see that I was barefoot as I began to slowly walk amidst the clouds.

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/PattyNDE.html

[Black Moclips]

I've read several books and articles regarding NDE's and find them fascinating. My favorite is "Return from Tomorrow" by George Ritchie. I highly recommend it, and while he was not LDS, I think LDS readers will find some very interesting similarities between his experiences and LDS doctrines and beliefs. But the most interesting aspect for me in all these NDE stories, is that "religion" in general is hardly ever discussed. While the experiences are extremely "spiritual" for the person its happening to, the actual experience rarely has anything to do with what church you belonged to. It seems the most important information relayed in these experiences are associated with the Life Review (a review of your life's actions and relationships, how your actions affected others, how you treated others, the real reasons why you did things, etc). The shame and heart ache experienced in these life reviews is caused by hurtful, uncaring selfish actions through ones life. The joy and happiness is experienced through service, caring, and charity. Personally, this tells me this life is not about priesthood, or authority, or ordinances, or what doctrines you believe in or what church you belong to. Its about how you love and treat your fellow man. It is all about charity.

[handys003]

Schizophrenia probably has an organic basis -- it is a medical condition. One who lost an arm or leg, those who have medical and physical problems will be made whole in the resurrection.

The BOM tells us that the atonement of Christ covers the sins of not only children, but also those who are not responsible for their acts.

You mean organic as in Chemical imbalance? However I'm okay with this statement. Some Christians don't grasp that some evil is caused by medical conditions. Just had me wondering at first.

[handys003]

* Lots of people try to say time doesn't exist in the spirit world but that is philosophical nonsense.

Maybe it's the sense that they can't feel time in the sense that we/they live on in this plane. More due to the biological clock. Our Biological clock is geared toward the 24 hour and seasonal cycle of this planet. Therefore if you went to a world where one day equals 5000 earth days then that time percetion would be altered.

[Nofear]

Maybe it's the sense that they can't feel time in the sense that we/they live on in this plane. More due to the biological clock. Our Biological clock is geared toward the 24 hour and seasonal cycle of this planet. Therefore if you went to a world where one day equals 5000 earth days then that time percetion would be altered.

I'm quite ok with the flow of time being a different rate. Incidentally, sleep also seems to be a thing absent from NDE accounts -- the more complex ones where there is social interaction with others or a "tour".

You also see incidents were individuals actually go back in time and observe events (such as Elder David B. Haight's NDE that he shared in general conference in 1989 or some versions of life reviews). But in no case are events ever interacted with or altered, and so observe is the key word here. Pretty cool technology that, though.

[Nofear]

I've read several books and articles regarding NDE's and find them fascinating. My favorite is "Return from Tomorrow" by George Ritchie. I highly recommend it, and while he was not LDS, I think LDS readers will find some very interesting similarities between his experiences and LDS doctrines and beliefs. But the most interesting aspect for me in all these NDE stories, is that "religion" in general is hardly ever discussed. While the experiences are extremely "spiritual" for the person its happening to, the actual experience rarely has anything to do with what church you belonged to. It seems the most important information relayed in these experiences are associated with the Life Review (a review of your life's actions and relationships, how your actions affected others, how you treated others, the real reasons why you did things, etc). The shame and heart ache experienced in these life reviews is caused by hurtful, uncaring selfish actions through ones life. The joy and happiness is experienced through service, caring, and charity. Personally, this tells me this life is not about priesthood, or authority, or ordinances, or what doctrines you believe in or what church you belong to. Its about how you love and treat your fellow man. It is all about charity.

Personally I'm not all that interested in the moral lessons brought back from NDE's. God gave us scriptures, prophets, and a conscious for that stuff. I'm interested in the NDE's for the physics.

But, if you do like that stuff, you may also be interested in pre-birth experiences. Those are fun too.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It actually raises the question of why the only record we have of "unclothed" people would be the pre-fall Adam and Eve.

If even spirits and resurrected beings wear clothes, why wouldn't Adam and Eve also wear clothes in their pre-Fall Terrestrial state?

I'm not running around naked in the afterlife. Just put me down as a no on that one.