Kolob=Sirius?

[Stargazer]

The Dogon of Mali have a legend of Sirius that may interest you.

http://starryskies.c...2-96/dogon.html

Except that is more likely a case of cross-cultural contamination going back to some French missionaries years and years ago.

But how could Sirius, Alpha Canis Majoris, a perfectly ordinary spectral type A star, be Kolob? That's just nuts.

On top of that, the name Sirius isn't of the derivation you're giving it.

The name "Sirius" is derived from the Ancient Greek Seirios ("scorcher"), possibly because the star's appearance was associated with summer.¹

And it's called the Dog Star because of its prominence of the constellation Canis Majoris, the Big Dog.

I'm pretty sure we can't see the actual Kolob.

[volgadon]

There's a lot of jumping around here, but I think that's the gist of it, and I think my summation is reasonably accurate. I'm not sure why Nibley went the Arabic route rather than the Assyrian or Semitic route, especially since he notes that Kolob is Semitic. (I am not sure how closely Arabic and Semitic are related.)

Semitic is a language group, not an actual language. Arabic is a Semitic language.

[Olavarria]

But how could Sirius, Alpha Canis Majoris, a perfectly ordinary spectral type A star, be Kolob? That's just nuts.

I don't think you read every thing I wrote on this thread. Frankly, i dont blame you; you probably have a life

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're assuming that I think Kolob/Sirius is the sun around which Heavenly Father's home planet revolves. Im not making that case, nor do I believe that to be true.

On top of that, the name Sirius isn't of the derivation you're giving it.

And it's called the Dog Star because of its prominence of the constellation Canis Majoris, the Big Dog.

Did you read the OP? Not trying to be rude, but really?

I'm pretty sure we can't see the actual Kolob.

You really need to read this. In the BoA, Kolob is a star that can be seen without supernormal assistance.

[Pahoran]

That's an interesting possibility. After all, Sirius' brother was named Regulus Arcturus, so why shouldn't Sirius have had Kolob as his middle name?

(Runs and hides)

Regards,

Pahoran

[Connolly]

You need to look at the sky through 4,000 year old binoculars, the way an ancient Egyptian would have.

Sirius is not visible for half the year. From an ancient astronomical view, it is not one of the immortal stars and thus is unlikely to be Kolob. Sirius is one of the stars that "dies."

As for what was really being taught to Abraham there you need to look a couple of verses farther on - the identity of Kolob is not any more relevant to the doctrine being taught to Abraham than the fact that grapes grown in sunshine is relevant to the doctrine taught in the parable of the vineyard.

That said, IMO, Beta Ursae Minoris is a much better candidate. The common name for Beta Ursae Minoris is Kochab. The name Kochab has ancient origins (possibly Hebrew) but it is still in use today and is also known in Arabic as al-kawkab. Right now the pole star is Polaris, but due to procession (wobble)in the Earth's spin, in the days that Abraham walked the Earth Kochab was the north pole star. Kochab would have appeared to orbit the celestial north pole in a very small circle and would have been the closest star to it. Kochab is a bright magnitude 2 star that is very easy to see. It never sets, it remains above the horizon year round and even during the day. In the time of Abraham no star would have been closer to the Celestial North Pole. The Celestial North pole is the spot in the sky which due to the rotation of the Earth everything else appears to orbit. Because everything appears to revolve around it, it ancient Egyptians believed it to be the location of the throne of God. That is probably the reason the pyramids were constructed with a north face shaft aimed directly at the celestial north pole. The great ones are the ones closest to the celestial north pole because those stars never set, they never died, they are the immortal stars. Today we refer to them as the circumpolar stars.

Sirius simply doesn't meet the description given.

At any rate the identity of Kolob is an astronomical curiosity, its not something to hang a hat on. The real lesson being taught there begins at about verse 18. That lesson is the meat. The bit about Kolob is just the milk to help us understand.

[Stargazer]

I don't think you read every thing I wrote on this thread. Frankly, i dont blame you; you probably have a life

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're assuming that I think Kolob/Sirius is the sun around which Heavenly Father's home planet revolves. Im not making that case, nor do I believe that to be true.

Did you read the OP? Not trying to be rude, but really?

You really need to read this. In the BoA, Kolob is a star that can be seen without supernormal assistance.

You're right, I didn't read the whole thing. I probably went off half-cocked, but as you will no doubt have noticed, my screen name kind of suggests an interest in astronomy, which happens to be real. So when upon first skim I saw what I thought I saw (and having limited time), I reacted in the obvious way.

I will re-read your opus a little more closely when I get a moment.

[Connolly]

You might find this article on pyramid alignment and the celestial pole alignment of Kochab and pyramid construction dating interesting: http://www.robertbauval.co.uk/articles/articles/gpdating.html

[Anijen]

Why so sirius?

LOL I just knew that was coming.after loading an image off the internet how do I make it smaller?

[maklelan]

1. He looks at the root of the word 'qlb' in Arabic, and compares that with 'qrb' in Semitic (due to the idea of Kolob being "near to" God). The Arabic seems to infer that 'qlb' is used in conjunction with four different stars, of which they name Antares and Regulus.

Interesting. In hieroglyphic Egyptian there was no sign for the letter "L." The letter "R" filled that role. Thus the Merneptah Stele actually refers to "Israer."

[Anijen]

Interesting. In hieroglyphic Egyptian there was no sign for the letter "L." The letter "R" filled that role. Thus the Merneptah Stele actually refers to "Israer."

And the opposite is true for Mayan glyphs there is no R so in a name like Maria would be Malia

[volgadon]

And I do wonder if ancient Hebrew had an 'r' like the Arabic 'gh' which to the untrained ear can sound like an 'l'.

[USU78]

And I do wonder if ancient Hebrew had an 'r' like the Arabic 'gh' which to the untrained ear can sound like an 'l'.

There's also this: many Asian and Pacific Rim languages don't distinguish between "l" and "r" at all, but rather employ a tongue flap that sounds somewhere in between the two, leading to bad jokes like this.

[volgadon]

To Herr with Babe Luth! Ironic, of course, considering his political leanings.

[mfbukowski]

Except that is more likely a case of cross-cultural contamination going back to some French missionaries years and years ago.

Yes, I understand it is common for French missionaries to teach about binary star systems especially to pre-literate peoples. Since these missionaries are generally expert in their training in astronomy, it is important in teaching the rudiments of Christianity to people such as the Dogon.

[mfbukowski]

And the opposite is true for Mayan glyphs there is no R so in a name like Maria would be Malia

I find this also to be true in the Chinese restaurants I frequent, thereby proving conclusively that the Maya are in fact Chinese.

[mfbukowski]

There's also this: many Asian and Pacific Rim languages don't distinguish between "l" and "r" at all, but rather employ a tongue flap that sounds somewhere in between the two, leading to bad jokes like this.

I don't believe you said this. Honestly, I made my previous post before I read this. Very scary indeed!

[USU78]

Yeah . . . that Mickey Rooney performance is one of the most infamous of dialect shticks . . . with the Chinese Restauranteur in South Park ("City Wok") being not far behind.

[Olavarria]

Wow, this thread is hopelessly derailed. To sum it all up:

1)Abraham was a Mesopotamian

2)KLB is the greatest of the stars

3)Klb is associated with the sun(fac2).

1)In Assyrian, Sirius is called:

2)Kalbu Shamash, meaning

3)"dog of the sun"

Is Sirus aka Kolob? U be the judge.

[volgadon]

Wow, this thread is hopelessly derailed. To sum it all up:

1)Abraham was a Mesopotamian

2)KLB is the greatest of the stars

3)Klb is associated with the sun(fac2).

1)In Assyrian, Sirius is called:

2)Kalbu Shamash, meaning

3)"dog of the sun"

Is Sirus aka Kolob? U be the judge.

I did ask if there was any indication of when the term Kalbu Shamash came into being and if it was used by anyone other than the Assyrians.

[Olavarria]

I did ask if there was any indication of when the term Kalbu Shamash came into being and if it was used by anyone other than the Assyrians.

I think, from what I'm Googleing, it goes back to Esarhaddon. Whether it goes back further, I dunno.

This is what I get from Sirius matters.

I wonder, even if the term doesnt go back to Abraham's time(i dunno whether it does or not),we should remember that niether do the Hebrew words, or facsimiles. So maybe equating klb with "kalbu shamash" might be explained in the same way as the existance of Hebrew in the BoA is explained? I dunno.

If ur a missing papyrus man, you might argue that the BoA is divinely inspired psuedopigraphy, written during a later period of ancient history.

Heres an interesting paper.

[volgadon]

Which is kind of why I pointed out that Sirius wasn't the dog star in Hebrew, as far as we are aware of.

[cdowis]

May I point out one tiny issue.

The visible universe constitutes only 20% of the universe. Surely the description of the universe in Abraham has to take into account dark matter.

[Olavarria]

Which is kind of why I pointed out that Sirius wasn't the dog star in Hebrew, as far as we are aware of.

I only threw in the Hebrew keleb to show that kolob and kalbu might be cognates.

[Olavarria]

I only threw in the Hebrew keleb to show that kolob and kalbu might be cognates.

More on Kolob as "dog"

Here

Proto-Semitic : *kalb

Arabic : kalb ?????

Syriac : kalb?

Hebrew : keleb ??????

Ugaritic : klb

Ge'ez : kalb

Like I said, the BoA associates Kolob with the sun(figure 1, facsimile 2)

Both the Akkadians and the Assyrians associated Sirius with the sun.

[Woody]

I'm having three problems with all this. First, I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. So the idea, suggested in some of the references posted here, that the Book of Abraham is 19th century pseudoepigrapha is crazy as far as I'm concerned.

Second, I can't see revelations from heaven giving incorrect science. So, the idea of Abraham thinking in terms of a geocentric model of the cosmos is crazy too.

The text talks about Facsimile 1, but Joseph also published Fac. 2 and 3, and there was more text that never got published - I'm fairly sure that it talks about Fac. 2 also, ie. Abraham used Fac. 2 or something like it to teach his readers. Fac. 2 is anything but geocentric! There in the center is God, on his throne. There at the bottom is a cow which (the Egyptians supposed) represented the sun. And there in the bottom corner is the earth. It not only ain't geocentric, it ain't heliocentric; it's actually a good match with current science... earth orbits the sun, sun orbits the center of the galaxy along with a lot of other stars. Our solar system is a little provincial region. So that puts me in the group that thinks Kolob is near the center of the galaxy, I guess... which btw is in the Constellation Sagitarrius. We can't see it, there's a lot of dust and stuff in the way, which is why this place is so dark. But it can be imaged, in the infrared.

And third, something that was posted but now I don't see it, somebody was saying that Kolob isn't a planet, it's a star. This might help:

Seek Ye Earnestly, 1970/1972, p. 274-276"]

Now I am going to make a statement here in contradiction of the teaching of the philosophers and the scientists who set forth that doctrine, that the earth will become lifeless, and I am going to tell you a little incident that took place here at the summer school a few years ago, a conversation that I had with Dr. Carl Eyring.

We were up in the summer school on the mountainside, and he had a telescope in the middle of the day which showed the planet, Venus. He wanted to know if I wanted to see it, and I told him "yes," so I went and had a look at Venus, which through the telescope looked much like our moon in one of its quarters.

As we walked away we talked about the planets, and how wonderful it was that we had instruments which would reveal these things to us, and I said: "Brother Eyring. I do not have the idea that you scientists have about the Sun."

"Well, is that so? What is your idea?"

I said, "You have never seen the sun. Neither has any other mortal man."

"Why, what do you mean?"

I said, "All you see when you look at the sun through smoked glasses or any way that you can look at the sun, is the cloud that surrounds it. Every eclipse of the sun shows that."

He said, "I guess that is right." Well, what is the sun?

"It is not a dying world. Of course, it is full of energy. God is full of enery, and should we mortals stand in his presence, unless his spirit was upon us to protect us we would he consumed. That is how much energy there is in a celestial body.

Sun - An Immortal World

I said, "The sun is a body that has gone on to its fulness. It has reached its glory. It is an immortal world." The bell rang and we had no further time for discussion, but that doctrine was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am sorry, I do not have that reference with me. We look into the heavens and we see worlds that have gone on to their glory. Some of them may be terrestrial worlds, telestial, some celestial worlds, and so the Lord here says worlds after they are created will pass away. Of course they will. This earth will pass away, for God never made anything to be destroyed or come to naught, and so these worlds that pass away receive their resurrection as this earth will receive its resurrection.

I've been going to scan this for a long time and finally got around to it. A pocket digital camera makes a dandy scanner these days, btw.

Wood