Marriage in the Covenant and our Birthright

[katherine the great]

For millennia, many people were married not because of love or compatibility, but because of arranged marriages.

I would argue that most parents took those things into consideration when arranging marriages for their children (unless it was a political marriage or the parents were only thinking of how the marriage would benefit them personally.) I would never arrange a marriage for my child with a person I thought they would not be compatible with. I think compatibility is one of the most important things in a marriage.

[mercyngrace]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. You said:

All I'm saying is that marriage in the church, even marriage in the temple, is not the golden ticket. Both of the women I described would have had a significantly better life marrying good men outside the church. A man with a good heart may convert in this life and WILL convert in the next. A man with evil in his heart won't be a good match simply because he's LDS.

Did you mean that it's okay to marry out of the church, out of the temple, as long as you marry a GOOD man, because eventually he will convert? If not, then I apologize.

I meant that it's better than being in a marriage with a man who's commitment is worth less than the paper his TR is printed on - which is why the sentence immediately following the one you bolded describes a "man with evil in his heart".

Furthermore, I stand by what I posted when I said the best thing was to let God plot the course of your life.

[mercyngrace]

I would argue that most parents took those things into consideration when arranging marriages for their children (unless it was a political marriage or the parents were only thinking of how the marriage would benefit them personally.) I would never arrange a marriage for my child with a person I thought they would not be compatible with. I think compatibility is one of the most important things in a marriage.

I'm in an arranged marriage. God arranged it. I was dating several different men and the Lord told me that my husband was the one even though another checked more of the blocks of cultural mormonism. My husband was a recent convert and I couldn't really gauge his commitment to the church or understanding, the other guy was a faithful RM with lots of knowledge and a wonderful testimony. I turned the RM down and told the new convert who I barely knew that we should get to know one another better. I can honestly say that I was not in love with him and didn't have any interest in him other than thinking he seemed nice and was handsome enough.

It was the best thing that ever happened to me.

(edit: We dated for a year, he went to the temple, and then we got married in the temple. Just wanted to clear that up in case Brenda thought I was encouraging marrying outside the temple because I had done it... I didn't ;-)

[katherine the great]

I'm in an arranged marriage. God arranged it.

That reminds me of that scene in "Fiddler on the Roof" where Tevye asks, "On the other hand, did Adam and Eve have a matchmaker?" and then answers himself "Yes they did" (pointing up to heaven.) "And it seems these two have the same matchmaker..." (LOVED that movie!)

[Brenda]

I meant that it's better than being in a marriage with a man who's commitment is worth less than the paper his TR is printed on - which is why the sentence immediately following the one you bolded describes a "man with evil in his heart".

Furthermore, I stand by what I posted when I said the best thing was to let God plot the course of your life.

I agree that it would be better to be married to a good non-LDS than to a LDS jerk. I think I've said that several times.

We've been counseled repeatedly about the importance of temple marriage. But beyond that one must use one's judgement and God-given wisdom to pick a good person for a spouse. Therein lies the vital need for direction from the Spirit on whom to pick--so we do agree there also. It does happen, though not often, that the Spirit directs someone to marry outside the temple. This is definitely the exception.

But just because there are jerks walking around with recommends in their wallets, doesn't necessarily give us a green light to marry outside the temple. But you probably didn't mean that.

[Benjamin McGuire]

One of the real problems with this particular lesson in the lesson manual is that the birthright (which Jacob steals from Esau - although - both are party to it - Esau undervalues it, and Jacob overcharges for his stew) isn't the same thing at all as the Abrahamic covenant. Neither is the blessing which Jacob steals from his brother. The birthright that gets discussed in the Jacob-Esau narrative is about inheritance. And Jacob eventually returns it to his brother (part of the process of getting rid of his old name. Jacob = "deceiver" something which he is very good at, and getting a new name from God).

I have a passage I like in the Mishnah related to the whole story (Genesis Rabbah 70:29):

All that night he called to her 'Rachel' and she answered him. In the morning, 'there was Leah.' He said: 'You are a cheater and the daughter of a cheater!' She said to him: 'Is there a school without students?' Is that not how your father called you 'Esau' and you answered him? Also you called me and I answered you!'

What goes around, comes around.

One of the problems with using the text in this way is that Jacob's wives, even if they were from his family (generally speaking) did not have the same religion that Jacob did (consider their father's idols which they take with them when they go). Using this story as a basis to talk about marrying within the church is simply a way of trying to justify a premise by prooftexting - and it doesn't work very well, because in order to make it work, you have to remove the narrative context of the story, and reinterpret outside of its historical context.

Ben M.

[mercyngrace]

But just because there are jerks walking around with recommends in their wallets, doesn't necessarily give us a green light to marry outside the temple. But you probably didn't mean that.

Nope. I didn't.

But I do believe that in some circumstances, the Lord not only approves of marriage outside the covenant, He uses it to accomplish great things. This thread started out talking about Esau. Let's move one generation forward in the scriptures. Joseph married outside the covenant and had two sons by a non-member whose father was a false priest. Joseph's sons received the covenant and promised inheritance. Today they are the ones responsible for carrying the gospel throughout the world. The work of the restored gospel has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Ephraim (that kid not BIC).

[Brenda]

But I do believe that in some circumstances, the Lord not only approves of marriage outside the covenant, He uses it to accomplish great things. This thread started out talking about Esau. Let's move one generation forward in the scriptures. Joseph married outside the covenant and had two sons by a non-member whose father was a false priest. Joseph's sons received the covenant and promised inheritance. Today they are the ones responsible for carrying the gospel throughout the world. The work of the restored gospel has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Ephraim (that kid not BIC).

I completely agree. And these marriages are the exceptions.

[cinepro]

So, who here believes God could inspire an LDS to marry a non-LDS?

[Glenn101]

Nope. I didn't.

But I do believe that in some circumstances, the Lord not only approves of marriage outside the covenant, He uses it to accomplish great things. This thread started out talking about Esau. Let's move one generation forward in the scriptures. Joseph married outside the covenant and had two sons by a non-member whose father was a false priest. Joseph's sons received the covenant and promised inheritance. Today they are the ones responsible for carrying the gospel throughout the world. The work of the restored gospel has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Ephraim (that kid not BIC).

There are all too many things we do not know about Joesph's marriage and his wife. It is my feeling that she was "adopted" into Israel's family and became a "member" and accepted the "Gospel". I do not think that God changes the rules to fit the circumstances but the circumstances are changed to fit the rules.

Glenn

[Brenda]

So, who here believes God could inspire an LDS to marry a non-LDS?

I do. A bishop in our stake was non-LDS when he married his LDS wife. I believe this was one of the exceptions. We all know of them.

However, IMHO, unless the Spirit STRONGLY and w/o question leads us in this direction, we are best following the prophet's counsel, meant for the vast majority.

From the Gospel Doctrine manual: (pg. 42)

"How does where we marry affect our ability to receive the blessings of our birthright? (We enter into the part of the Abrahamic covenant that pertains to exaltation and eternal increase by making and keeping the covenants of the temple endowment and eternal marriage.)"

Spencer W. Kimball:

"But one cannot afford to take a chance on falling in love with someone who may never accept the gospel. True, a small percentage have finally been baptized after marrying Church members.

[katherine the great]

One of the problems with using the text in this way is that Jacob's wives, even if they were from his family (generally speaking) did not have the same religion that Jacob did (consider their father's idols which they take with them when they go). Using this story as a basis to talk about marrying within the church is simply a way of trying to justify a premise by prooftexting - and it doesn't work very well, because in order to make it work, you have to remove the narrative context of the story, and reinterpret outside of its historical context.

Ben M.

I felt the same way about Isaac and Rebecca. It seemed strange to me that it would be used as an example of marrying "within the covenant." What covenant? Abraham hadn't seen his relatives in Mesopotamia for many years. Nahor and Micah chose to stay in Haran where we know that Terah was worshiping idols. We also know that Rebecca's brother Laban was an idol worshipper. I think that they were amenable to worshipping Yahweh, but if they did, I think they worshipped him alongside their other gods.

[BigPR]

There are all too many things we do not know about Joesph's marriage and his wife. It is my feeling that she was "adopted" into Israel's family and became a "member" and accepted the "Gospel". I do not think that God changes the rules to fit the circumstances but the circumstances are changed to fit the rules.

Glenn

While the evidence that I'll use to support your position is somewhat 'apocryphal' it is nevertheless plausible. In the Legend of the Jews: VII we learn that

"Asenath desired also to kiss Joseph, but he warded off the intimate greeting with the words: "It is not meet that a God-fearing man, who blesses the living God, and eats the blessed bread of life, who drinks of the blessed cup of immortality and incorruptibility, and anoints himself with the fragrant oil of holiness, should kiss a woman of a strange people, who blesses dead and unprofitable idols, and eats the putrid bread of idolatry, which chokes the soul of man, who drinks the libations of deceit, and anoints herself with the oil of destruction."These words uttered by Joseph touched Asenath unto tears. Out of compassion with her, he bestowed his blessing upon her, calling upon God to pour out His spirit over her and make her to become a member of His people and His inheritance, and grant her a portion in the life eternal.The appearance and the speech of Joseph made so deep an impression upon Asenath that no sooner had she reached her apartment than she divested herself of her robes of state and took off her jewels, and put on sackcloth instead, strewed ashes upon her head, and supplicated God amid tears to grant her pardon for her sins. In this manner she spent seven days and seven nights in her chamber. Noteven her seven attendants were permitted to enter her presence during the time of her penance. The morning of the eighth day an angel appeared unto her, and bade her put away her sackcloth and ashes and array herself in state, for this day she had been born anew, he said, to eat the blessedbread of life, to drink of the cup of life immortal, and anoint herself with the oil of life eternal." Source: http://www.gutenberg...t98/2lotj10.txt I believe it was not just Joseph that married 'outside' the covenant, but so did Moses (Numbers 12:1) but interestingly so did Judah from whose lineage the Messiah came. However, I do not believe that we know the conversion/adoption that took place in the lives of these women later in life. As an LDS convert myself, I believe that there's great wisdom in the brethren's counsel to marry in the covenant. If the gospel and its attending covenants mean that much to a person, there is only one avenue worth pursuing in seeking a mate. In doing so one must recognise that there are mormons and there are Mormons. A wise Priesthood Leader once counselled me that in the Church it is the responsibility of leaders to teach the norm and leave the exceptions to individuals.

[daz2]

God inspires LDS to marry non-LDS with some frequency. I think Elder Bednar might agree with that (his father was not LDS).

[LDSToronto]

It was also mentioned in class that "who" we marry" and "where" we marry will affect our eternal salvation- that we place our "eternal salvation in jeopardy when we marry outside the church". This is where I have always had a problem with this doctrine. Not that it is inherrently wrong, just that it carries a lot of negative baggage with it. I do think it is important and a requirement that we get married in the temple. But there is way more to the picture than we realize.

Yes I believe so, and it drives me crazy.

I have told my kids, all of them, to never settle when it comes to marriage. That includes every YM/YW that they hang out with now - just because they are a member of the church doesn't mean they hold the same standards you. I've met plenty of cretins in the hallways on Sunday. My advice is to find someone you are completely happy with and who holds the same standards you do, whether they've been baptized or not.

H.

BTW, my wife found me when I wasn't a member, and I was baptized. Happens more than you'd think.