2,555,000,000 years in this system of things

[Chris Smith]

Also, Phelps goes on in the same letter as follows:

this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years: and to know at the same time, that deists, geologists and others are trying to prove that matter must have existed hundreds of thousands of years;-it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!

So he was not unaware that geologists had proposed that the earth was much older than the traditional 6000 years, though it seems nobody had said anything about "millions" or "billions" yet.

[cdowis]

I don't think we have any reason to attribute this to JS. It is Phelps's own opinion, so far as I can tell.

I agree it's pretty speculative on where this came from, but its fun to talk about it.

[Zakuska]

But what I find most remarkable about the comment, and this is rather important, is that he specifically interprets the phrase "from eternity; and that eternity" or, in other words, "from eternity to eternity" as a finite value. That, is a bold and very significant interpretation.

Especially since it seems to be present in the Bible... as well...

Micah 5: 2.

2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Ps. 93: 2

2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Prov. 8: 23

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

[zerinus]

While walking this morning, I was listening to a talk by Truman Madsen in which he mentions that Joseph Smith said things have been going on in this system of things for two-billion, five-hundred fifty million (2,555,000,000) years, ostensibly getting this information from his translation of the Egyptian papyri.

Having heard this a number of times before, I got to wondering what formed the basis for this number; it seems so unusual as to unlikely be random.

Getting back to the office, I figured the most likely multpliers would be the days in a week times the days in a year; and sure enough 7 x 365 = 2,555.

Obviously I was on the right track.

Knowing that the Book of Abraham says one day with the Lord is 1,000 years according to our manner of reckoning, I multiplied both the number of days in the week as well as the number of days in a year times 1,000 prior to multiplying them by each other, yielding:

7,000 x 365,000 = 2,555,000,000.

Viola!

Totally reverse engineered!

While I recognize I must be a late-comer to this party, and no doubt somebody like John Pratt has set the table prior to my arrival, I can't help feeling the enthusiasm of new discovery.

Come rejoice with me.

Any thoughts about this, by the way?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

As I recall Joseph Smith said something even more interesting. He said that eternity had a fixed period of time, and gave a figure for it. I don't recall the source, and I don't have the means to look it up at the moment.

[Analytics]

I don't think we have any reason to attribute this to JS. It is Phelps's own opinion, so far as I can tell. And as I wrote on my blog a while back, "It's worth adding that Phelps's math is a little off. The problem is that he confuses his units: the 365 days per year are Earth-days, whereas the 1000 years per day refers to a Kolob-day. The units don't cancel, and so the result is nonsense."

Nofear proposed the formula:

7 dispensations x ( 1000 Kolob years / 1 dispensation ) x ( 365 Kolob days / 1 Kolob year ) x ( 1000 earth years / 1 Kolob day ) = 2,555,000,000 earth years.

In that formula the units do cancel, but the question remains, where did the 1000 Kolob years and 365 Kolob days come from?

My above explanation is the only thing that accounts for this. For reference, I suggested,

If a day to the Lord is 1,000 years to us, then what we consider to be 2,555,000,000 years ago was 2,555,000 days ago to the Lord, which is 7,000 years ago according to the Lord.

Getting into some old-school Mormon thought, consider that 1,000 years to our God is a single day to our God

[Nofear]

7 dispensations x ( 1000 Kolob years / 1 dispensation ) x ( 365 Kolob days / 1 Kolob year ) x ( 1000 earth years / 1 Kolob day ) = 2,555,000,000 earth years.

In that formula the units do cancel, but the question remains, where did the 1000 Kolob years and 365 Kolob days come from?

I noted the same thing. "PS: I have no idea why anybody would suppose that there are physically 365 Kolob days in a Kolob year though." This supposition alone makes the calculation rather silly -- though there are other reasons as well.

Anybody else care to offer an idea as to why the universe would be 7,000 Kolob-years old?

Well, "system" (which I think is reasonable to suppose as being conceived of as the solar system (and potentially nearby stars) by the author of the quote). Not a comment on the age of the universe as a whole. I believe those that didn't buy into the in-7-days-God-created-the-whole-universe paradigm typically conceived of the universe as infinite in age -- this despite the awareness of Olbers' paradox.

[Nofear]

Especially since it seems to be present in the Bible... as well...

Micah 5: 2.

2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Ps. 93: 2

2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Prov. 8: 23

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

I especially like the Micah quote. It seems to match is language most closely. Nice comment!

[BCSpace]

Any thoughts about this, by the way?

Completely non scientific and speculatory. However, it is thought that life on earth began about 3.7 billion years ago and according to the ratios of stable isotopes of various elements, photosynthesis was occuring and life was widespread on the earth 2.4 billion years ago which is close to 2.5 billion. Of course there is nothing as of yet to show a correlation between the two but perhaps something significant happened, like the beginning of the "fifth day".

[cdowis]

Based on this thread, I think we would agree that this number is based on speculation. Someone picked some numbers out of the scriptures, and simply added and multiplied them together.

Just idle speculation.

[rockslider]

I'm surprised that no one here knows where that number comes from. I forget the name of JS's rabbi friend in Nauvoo? Remember all the interest in the School of the Prophets over Hebrew at the time?

This number comes from old Jewish writings. See Sefer Yetzirah (The Book of Creation) chapter four section 15 "Seven Universes" ... but read on to the "Seven Jubilees" in the same chapter. The mystic Jews taught of multiple creations, with a 7 * 7 cycle (125 billion years) at which time the universe becomes completely spiritual.

Straight out of Kabbalic Judaism .

Seems God led several teachers to JS during his life.

btw, in the temple, some of us referred to the 2.5 as one eternal round, with the eternities simply being an endless round of them. I've heard of the pleats being representative of this.

[Chris Smith]

That's a very interesting hypothesis, rockslider. But it doesn't appear to be the explanation of the number, since 2.555 billion isn't derivable from 125 billion, so far as I can see. (Or am I missing something?)

[mfbukowski]

I

[rockslider]

That's a very interesting hypothesis, rockslider. But it doesn't appear to be the explanation of the number, since 2.555 billion isn't derivable from 125 billion, so far as I can see. (Or am I missing something?)

This is the version of the book I'm quoting from:

http://books.google....page&q=&f=false

Page 189 (see page 186 for the 2.5 math):

Seven Jubilees

"This is seven times 49 (or 50) years, a total of 343 (or 350) years. The First Temple stood for 410 years, and during this period, Israel observed seven jubilees.

This also relates to the concept of Sabbaticals of creation, where each jubilee period consists of 49,000 years. There will be seven such jubilee periods, and the universe will therefore last a total of 343,000 years. These are divine years, each one consisting of 365,250 earthly years. Thus the total time between the initial expansion and final collapse of the universe will be 125,287,500,000 years. This figure of 125 billion years is very close to the scientific calculation."

Who would have thunk mystic Jews believed in multiple creations (343 of them in fact)!

edit, too many zeros

[rockslider]

For a bit more completeness, let me quote from the "Seven Universes" (page 186)

"According to the master Kabbalists, Rabbi Isaac of Acco, when counting the years of these cycles, one must not use an ordinary physical year, but rather, a divine year. The Midrash says that each divine day is a thousand years, basing this on the verse, 'A thousand years in Your sight are as but yesterday' (Psalms 90:4). Since each year contains 365.25 days, a divine year would be 365,250 years long.

According to this, each cycle of seven thousand divine years would consist of 2,556,750,000 earthly years. This figure of two-and-a-half billion years is very close to the scientific estimate as to the length of time that life has existed on earth.

If we assume that the seventh cycle began with the Biblical account of creation, then this would have occurred when the universe was 15,340,500,000 years old. This is very close to the scientific estimate that the expansion of the universe began some fifteen billion years ago."

Note, the assumption in that last paragraph was based on some previous text where "... some Kabbaliistic doctrine had our creation as the second one, while others had it as the sixth or seventh."

[Chris Smith]

According to this, each cycle of seven thousand divine years would consist of 2,556,750,000 earthly years. This figure of two-and-a-half billion years is very close to the scientific estimate as to the length of time that life has existed on earth.

Interesting. This calculation appears to be derived according to the same math as Phelps's, but with a slightly different value for the number of days in a year. (365.25 instead of 365 exactly.)

[rockslider]

Interesting. This calculation appears to be derived according to the same math as Phelps's, but with a slightly different value for the number of days in a year. (365.25 instead of 365 exactly.)

Hello, you mean Phelps calculation seems to be derived from the ancient Jewish Kabblah which pre-dated JS by centuries, which was more precise and had other really cool aspects. I'd love to hear the doctrine/reasoning on the 2nd, 6th,7th creation. It seems Kaplan liked the 7th.

I tried to learn more, once upon a time, from a local Lubavitch Rebbe. Not being 45 years old at the time, and not a Jew, he would not teach me.

[Chris Smith]

Hello, you mean Phelps calculation seems to be derived from the ancient Jewish Kabblah which pre-dated JS by centuries, which was more precise and had other really cool aspects.

I'm inclined to think both were derived independently, actually. I can't imagine why Phelps would give a less-accurate calculation if he had a more accurate one available to him. And besides, all the building blocks for the calculation are present already in the Mormon system.

But yes, it's possible that Phelps's calculation was influenced by Kabbalah.

[consiglieri]

According to this, each cycle of seven thousand divine years would consist of 2,556,750,000 earthly years. This figure of two-and-a-half billion years is very close to the scientific estimate as to the length of time that life has existed on earth.

Nice find, Rockslider!

This seems a remarkable coincidence that Joseph Smith would calculate the age of "this system of things" in what is apparently the same manner as was done by Jewish Kabbalists, and the only difference in the results appears to be that Joseph Smith was using 365-day years rather than the more accurate 365 1/4 day years.

Has anybody told Harold Bloom about this?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[thesometimesaint]

consiglieri:

As my 5th Grade math teacher taught us "Show your work". In reviewing JS methodology it is nothing more than a lucky guess.

[rockslider]

Has anybody told Harold Bloom about this?

I came across this looking for the name of JS's jewish friend.

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

In the third section of this work we find this quote:

"By 1842 Joseph Smith most likely had touched the subject of Kabbalah in several ways and versions, even if such contacts remain beyond easy documentation. During Joseph's final years in Nauvoo, however, his connection with Kabbalah becomes more concrete. In the spring of 1841 there apparently arrived in Nauvoo an extraordinary library of Kabbalistic writings belonging to a European Jew and convert to Mormonism who evidently new Kabbalah and its principal written works. This man, Alexander Neibaur, would soon become the prophet's friend and companion. "

Alexander Neibaur is the name I was looking for.

[consiglieri]

Alexander Neibaur is the name I was looking for.

That is the name. I was thinking Joshua Seixas (sp?) from the Kirkland days.

Other than this second-hand comment regarding the 2.5 billion years, have you found any other indications that Joseph Smith's writings or translations reflect an interest in the Kabbalah?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[rockslider]

I

[consiglieri]

I think this is uber-cool, Rockslider.

Is it appropriate to ask how far you got in ascending the "ten Sephirot tree"?

I remember from reading RSR that Joseph Smith tried repeatedly (and finally succeeded in some measure in 1836 Kirtland) to bring his followers to a personal encounter with God.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[gtaggart]

While walking this morning, I was listening to a talk by Truman Madsen in which he mentions that Joseph Smith said things have been going on in this system of things for two-billion, five-hundred fifty million (2,555,000,000) years, ostensibly getting this information from his translation of the Egyptian papyri.

Having heard this a number of times before, I got to wondering what formed the basis for this number; it seems so unusual as to unlikely be random.

Getting back to the office, I figured the most likely multpliers would be the days in a week times the days in a year; and sure enough 7 x 365 = 2,555.

Obviously I was on the right track.

Knowing that the Book of Abraham says one day with the Lord is 1,000 years according to our manner of reckoning, I multiplied both the number of days in the week as well as the number of days in a year times 1,000 prior to multiplying them by each other, yielding:

7,000 x 365,000 = 2,555,000,000.

Viola!

Totally reverse engineered!

While I recognize I must be a late-comer to this party, and no doubt somebody like John Pratt has set the table prior to my arrival, I can't help feeling the enthusiasm of new discovery.

Come rejoice with me.

Any thoughts about this, by the way?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consiglieri,

One poster to another: Change the font on your signature. The one you're using makes the quote hard to read--and it's a great quote, by the way. Just sayin'.

[mfbukowski]

I