Ancient Civilization in North America

[Sevenbak]

It reminds me of this discription...

1 Sam 17

4

[Anijen]

My continued fun freindly debate with Sevenbac

Why do you think there were people there wanting to kill him after all that time?

Well because that is where they lived even after 38 years they were still the enemy

Wouldn't the Lamanites return to their homelands (and their continuing wars among themselves, according to Moroni) after all that time?

IMO They were in their homeland they made no trek to some unknown northern location 2000+ miles away (over 4000 miles if you count round trip) just to fight a final battle. This would be insanely stupid decision of horrific proportion for generals to make on either side. But we know that Mormon knew where Cumorah was and so did the Lamanite King and both agreed to a time to meet (Mormon 6:2-3). BTW this is a recorded ancient Mesoamerican practice to write and discuss battle sites. Ixtlixochitl " Topiltzin seeing himself so oppressed and that there was no way out, asked for time, for it was a law among them that before a battle they would notify each other some years in advance so that on both sides they would be warned and prepared."Fernando de Alva Quoted by Milton Hunter and Thomas Ferguson Ancient America and the Book of Mormon. In Mormon 6:4 they chose a place where they hoped to gain advantage over the Lamanites. Again why choose a unknown place over 2000 miles away and why would the Lamanites accept? Also with four years of preparation you would think some type of city structure would have gone up around or near the hill no such archeological evidence supports this around Palmyra that matches that time in the Book of Mormon. However in Veracruz near the hill Cerro Vigia the city El Mason was occupied not before and not after but exactly during this time. The Olmec civilization matches up very well with what we read about the Jaredites. We know that Ramah is the same hill as Cumorah (Ether 15:11) and that hill is close to the eastern seacoast. The hill Cerro Vigia is just a little over 9 miles west of the coast Palmyra cannot say that. We know that the hill Ramah/Cumorah needs to be relatively close to the narrow neck of land Cerro Vigia is just 62 miles away from the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (the accepted narrow neck of land). Palmyra is not even close to any known narrow neck.

Where do you think the narrow neck of land is? Somewhere in Central America or the Southern tip of florida. I don't necessary think we have the same geography as they did 2000 years ago.

But the Book of Mormon says the narrow neck of land is relatively close to the hill Ramah/Cumorah Palmyra is not close to the southern tip of Florida nor Central America.

I can point you to numerous accounts of just the opposite.

Please point away, remember the quotes needs to say it was the final battle hill. They need to be quotes of JS not hearsay.

Where does it say that poisonous snakes infested Cumorah?

Ether 10:33. "The Olmec culture flourished and supported hierarchical societies, including kings, during the period when similar social institutions flourished among the Jaredites. Olmec lands in the Gulf Coast lie in appropriate geographic proximity to southern the Isthmus of Tehuantepec and Chiapas, which I posit as the plausible Nephite lands.

The plausible linguistic and cultural connections of the people of Zarahemla also fit into the known archeological and linguistic history of the area" Brant Gardner volume six pg 142 of his six volume series Of course you have to believe that the Jaredites were in Mesoamerica in which I do.This area has many poisonous snakes.

Mormon said he was carried by his Father into the land southward to Zarahemla when he was 11. He had to of come from the North, otherwise he would have been living among the Lamanites. He was familiar with the land Northward. I think that was one of the reasons he was made General of the armies at such a young age, he knew the territory.

So are you saying That Mormons father carried Mormon to Mesoamerica from New York and when Mormon grew up to the age 75 he agreed to battle the Lamanites back up in New York a place he hasn't been to since he was eleven years old? Why would the Lamanites even agree to that? I agree it was north of Zarahemla but not even close to the 2000+ miles The Hill Cerro Vigia is and would be North of Zerahemla and is about 62 miles north of the narrow neck of land (Zarahemla was south of this). This makes much much more sense than 2000 miles.

Arnold has told me himself he got into arguments with the brethren about aspects of the paintings, but not the geography elements. I shot a documentary on his life's work. I didn't say he was an expert on geography, only that he didn't contradict what has been taught.

I do not see how any of his paintings have any relevance to the geography of the Book of Mormon either for your argument or mine. On a separate note is there anywhere I can watch this documentary?

I assume they went back in the vicinity of their cities and families.

I agree but your argument would have them turn around and head back to Mexico, a long trip from Palmyra.

Read the early histories of the Holland Purchase and Western New York territory, lots of collaborating evidence.

Tell me one book that supports it and I will buy it and read it. As for now can you quote me some pages from them? Remember they need to correspond to the times of the Book of Mormon not just the Hopewell Culture (I know they do) but the weapons and fortifications and metallurgy needs to too. I also can quote you books and papers that would contradict what you are implying to begin with a few are Guns Germs and Steel, 1491 and Ancient America to name a few.

The Hopewell metal war objects, axes, swords, knives, etc, are amazing.

I agree although the metal war objects, axes, swords, knives, etc most don't date back to the time of the Book of Mormon although the people do. Since the Hopewell people were known more for trade routes etc it is plausible that perhaps a trade route from the gulf of Mexico to the southern shores of Texas and other states had some trade going on between them. The Hopewell people to be the Jaredites, Nephites and Lamanites is much more problematic than the Mayans and Olmecs areas.

That doesn't mean we can't be friends.

Of course were friends, we are brothers in the true church.

[Nofear]

In the model where the Nephites migrate from mesoamerica to the great lakes area, when in the Book of Mormon account is this migration proposed to have occurred? I want to make sure I don't mistake my opinion for those that are advocates of the model.

[Zakuska]

In the model where the Nephites migrate from mesoamerica to the great lakes area, when in the Book of Mormon account is this migration proposed to have occurred? I want to make sure I don't mistake my opinion for those that are advocates of the model.

I beleive that would be where they were gathering for the final battle. When Moroni negotiated with the rulers of the Lamanites for a peace. So they could gather. I beleive it lasted for 7 years.

[Tribunal]

Last time I checked, Mesoamerica was in North America.

I don't understand this post. Who said anything about Mesoamerica not being North, Central, or South America? My question is regarding a known civilization in North America.

Thank you for your post though. I like the map.

[shrff]

Is there any evidence of civilizations in North America like the Mayans or Olmec? If so what do we know about them?

I am an archaeologist who works primarily in North America. I wonder exactly what you mean by "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec"? I'm assuming in my response that you talking about agricultural peoples with complex, hierarchical social organization (states, kingdoms, or chiefdoms) and large-scale architecture. Let me know if this assumption is incorrect. Note - there is currently no credible archaeological evidence for writing systems or metal smelting in North America, if that's what you're looking for.

Anthropologists typically divide North America (and other places) into "culture areas", geographically bounded regions where material culture and social organization tend to be similar over time. I'll answer your question by culture area.

California - No Pre-columbian examples

Northwest Coast - Many of the groups in this region developed complex hierarchical social ranking systems that were hereditary in nature. In other words, you inherited your social standing in large part from your parents. Despite this complex ranking system, the over-arching political organization tends to me tribal in nature, rather than states, chiefdoms, or kingdoms. Monumental architecture does exist in the form of totem poles and some large wooden structures. The costal or riverine-adapted people in this region did not farm in antiquity, but instead subsisted primarily on fish and other aquatic resources.

Plateau - Plateau peoples had some things in common with their coastal neighbors, but also shared traits and lifeways of the adjacent Great Basin people.

Great Basin - No Pre-columbian examples

Southwest - Agriculturalists in the Southwest employed a variety of social organizations, but leadership in this region was primarily based in ritual power rather than in political influence. Arguments for kingdoms/states/chiefdoms have been made at Chaco, in the Classic Period Hohokam, and Casas Grandes, each of which also had monumental architecture in the form of Chacoan Great Houses/Great Kivas, Platform Mounds, and ballcourts. Whether or not these respective regions were ruled by kings or some other central political rulers remains a research question.

Plains - No Pre-columbian examples

Subarctic - No Pre-columbian examples

Arctic - No Pre-columbian examples

Northeast/Southeast - This are where the somewhat already discussed "Moundbuilders" (including Adena, Hopewell, Mississippian(Cahokia), Moundville, etc.) and alliances such as the League of the Iroquois are found. These folks are probably most like "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec" in North America.

[Zakuska]

Note - there is currently no credible archaeological evidence for writing systems or metal smelting in North America, if that's what you're looking for.

The question here is... were does the BOM say anything about "metal smelting"?

I do see alot of Heating Metal up and working it. Would you not agree that there IS lots of evidence of this in both North and South America.

[Zakuska]

Delete Double

[charity]

I am an archaeologist who works primarily in North America. I wonder exactly what you mean by "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec"? I'm assuming in my response that you talking about agricultural peoples with complex, hierarchical social organization (states, kingdoms, or chiefdoms) and large-scale architecture. Let me know if this assumption is incorrect.

Why would one group, such as Mayans, chose to use stone, which would tend to last better than organic building materials, and another, say Moundbuilders, chose wood and earth works which aren't as persistent?

[charity]

The last battle at Cumorah panting is clearly in the Fall, look at the leaves. Why would snow matter in that setting?

That is why I thought you thought the paintings were historical record. I don't accept an artist's ideas as being a pohotgraphic record. But it sounds from this post that you do.

[notHagoth7]

It doesn't have to Reformed Egyptian was the language used for the gold plates. Nowhere does it say it was the language used in commerce of daily interactions..

I agree.

[Anijen]

Why would one group, such as Mayans, chose to use stone, which would tend to last better than organic building materials, and another, say Moundbuilders, chose wood and earth works which aren't as persistent?

I think one reason is the rate of decay is greater in the climate of Mesoamerica than the Northwest.

shrff Northeast/Southeast - This are where the somewhat already discussed "Moundbuilders" (including Adena, Hopewell, Mississippian(Cahokia), Moundville, etc.) and alliances such as the League of the Iroquois are found. These folks are probably most like "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec" in North America.

Which is the main area Sevenbak uses for his hybrid/hemispheric theory. I really dont have much to argue with him but I do get a little bit of satisfaction debating the location of the Hill (or hills IMO)Cumorah. The "Moundbuilders" where a fascinating culture but from the books/papers I have read they had a rudimentary agriculture system one which make it impossible to support large scale populations.

Shrff do you agree with John Clark when he says the hill Cumorah (in New York) is a clean hill with no such evidence of warfare etc or a connection with the Hopewell civilization?

Nofear~ In the model where the Nephites migrate from mesoamerica to the great lakes area, when in the Book of Mormon account is this migration proposed to have occurred? I want to make sure I don't mistake my opinion for those that are advocates of the model.

As far as I know Sevenbak posits that most of the events of the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica with the exception being the final battle was at the Palmyra hill Cumorah.

My own theory (so far)is the LGT in Mesoamerica. I do think in the last decades of Moroni's life he eventually made it up to NY and there he buried the plates.

[Tribunal]

I am an archaeologist who works primarily in North America. I wonder exactly what you mean by "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec"? I'm assuming in my response that you talking about agricultural peoples with complex, hierarchical social organization (states, kingdoms, or chiefdoms) and large-scale architecture. Let me know if this assumption is incorrect. Note - there is currently no credible archaeological evidence for writing systems or metal smelting in North America, if that's what you're looking for.

Northeast/Southeast - This are where the somewhat already discussed "Moundbuilders" (including Adena, Hopewell, Mississippian(Cahokia), Moundville, etc.) and alliances such as the League of the Iroquois are found. These folks are probably most like "civilizations like the Mayans or Olmec" in North America.

I meant civilizations like the Mayans, the Olmecs, and maybe even the Hopewell, Cahokia, Mississipians, and the Iroquois from what you're saying. Thanks!

[Cold Steel]

I believe Joseph Smith when he says Zarahemla was in MesoAmerica. I also believe him about Cumorah being in New York, just as I believe him talking about the mound builder remains being of Nephite origin. I find no inconsistencies in any of these statements.

I'm afraid you're not being consistent with your geography. If Joseph Smith was correct about Palenque being a Book of Mormon city, then we have to be talking about Mesoamerica being the lands of the Book of Mormon. According to the Book of Mormon, the narrow neck of land was close to the Hill Cumorah. Thus, if we know where Cumorah is, we should be able to find the narrow neck. We also know that the narrow neck was infested with snakes for about five generations. That would be impossible if the narrow neck was in New York, as snakes hibernate in the winter.

There are a few websites I recommend for those wishing to become familiar with the Mesoamerican theories:

John P. Pratt Article

Lawrence Poulson's Book of Mormon Geography

Jerry Ainsworth Mormon Sites

Two Cumorahs by Robert Pate

In short, there is no compelling evidence that can establish

the Palmyra area of New York State as the location for the original

hill Cumorah. The ruins, the legends, the recorded history, the weather,

the topography, the geography, the seismology, the carbon dating, the

archaeology, the anthropology, and the linguistic roots support a

limited Mesoamerican location only. Even the DNA evidence will fall

into line when the scope is sufficiently limited and the database is

adequately complete. --Robert Pate

I used to believe in the Great Lakes geography and never really thought about it until someone pointed out many of the things found in these sites. Not all of the theories have to be smack dead-on in agreement, either; however, the differences are fairly minor.

.

[Zakuska]

My own theory (so far)is the LGT in Mesoamerica. I do think in the last decades of Moroni's life he eventually made it up to NY and there he buried the plates.

I think this pretty much describes my current theory as well. As far as the North country is concerned.

However... the Local of the Jaredites and the Land of First Inheritance, Ive been entertaining the Idea of Columbia and Peru. This is were the Elephants (Cuverionius) are said to have gone extinct around 400AD.

[Nofear]

As far as I know Sevenbak posits that most of the events of the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica with the exception being the final battle was at the Palmyra hill Cumorah.

I just wanted to make sure. If the only time the Nephites weren't in mesoamerica is when they were fleeing the Lamanites then I see very little relevance to the mound builders. A fleeing nation isn't going to do any mound building or any such thing. But I'm probably not paying enough attention to the thread and no such claim is made.

But, if indeed the only time the Nephite's fled, I find your argument persuasive. Why in the heck would the Lamanites pursue the Nephite's over a thousand miles. Heck, if I was Moroni, the Mississippi would probably been a better place to defend. Get the populace across on barges and what not then set the army up to deal with the Lamanite army when thy tried to cross on their own makeshift flotilla.

Never mind that the fleeing Nephites would have had to cross numerous populations with no mention of alliances or aggressions.

Yeah, a flee-to-New York-for-the-last-battle idea just doesn't make any sense at all. Not from historical evidence, not from documentary evidence, not from military common-sense.

My own theory (so far)is the LGT in Mesoamerica. I do think in the last decades of Moroni's life he eventually made it up to NY and there he buried the plates.

I think our Book of Mormon geography views are almost identical. The only difference is that you are much more informed on this subject than I am. I'm jealous.

[Anijen]

I'm afraid you're not being consistent with your geography. If Joseph Smith was correct about Palenque being a Book of Mormon city, then we have to be talking about Mesoamerica being the lands of the Book of Mormon. According to the Book of Mormon, the narrow neck of land was close to the Hill Cumorah. Thus, if we know where Cumorah is, we should be able to find the narrow neck. We also know that the narrow neck was infested with snakes for about five generations. That would be impossible if the narrow neck was in New York, as snakes hibernate in the winter.

There are a few websites I recommend for those wishing to become familiar with the Mesoamerican theories:

John P. Pratt Article

Lawrence Poulson's Book of Mormon Geography

Jerry Ainsworth Mormon Sites

Two Cumorahs by Robert Pate

I used to believe in the Great Lakes geography and never really thought about it until someone pointed out many of the things found in these sites. Not all of the theories have to be smack dead-on in agreement, either; however, the differences are fairly minor.

.

I wouldn't put too much credit into Robert A Pates Two Cumorah's. I have this book and found it to be highly speculative especially in his usage of languages to back up his theory (which is the only argument he uses)he uses hardly any of What John Sorensons says is most important when considering BoM geography such as the following; The overall configuration of the lands, Topography (land surfaces) and hydrography (streams, lakes, and seas), Distances and directions, Climate, ecology, economy, and population

The distribution of the civilization, Nephite history in geographical perspectivesee here A better book on the matter would be In search of Cumorah by David A Palmer. I also find Lawrence Poulson's site on Mormon Geography to be brilliant.

Nofear said I think our Book of Mormon geography views are almost identical. The only difference is that you are much more informed on this subject than I am. I'm jealous.

Thanks for the kind words. As I know who you are personally I know perhaps that is one of the few fields I might be slightly ahead of you in. For those who don't know, Brother Nofear is what I consider a genius and is like rocket science smart in fact I believe he teaches that sort of stuff at his college.

[shrff]

Shrff do you agree with John Clark when he says the hill Cumorah (in New York) is a clean hill with no such evidence of warfare etc or a connection with the Hopewell civilization?

This is from "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions", correct?

This is a well-written article and I do agree with John. As Clark points out, the available literature is somewhat scanty, but he makes excellent use of what has been written.

Although the edge of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere does extend to upstate New York (most notably as part of the Point Peninsula Complex), all of the known large, fortified sites in the area post-date A.D. 1000 and the introduction of maize agriculture. The data indicate that although there were people connected to the Hopwellian network in the region, no large Hopewell centers existed, in fact, no large centers of any kind existed until well after BOM times.

Regarding the hill being "clean", there are no archaeological features on the hill, and artifacts in the surrounding area are sparse to absent (see this letter written to Clark from an avocational archaeologist to this end).

[Brant Gardner]

Although the edge of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere does extend to upstate New York (most notably as part of the Point Peninsula Complex), all of the known large, fortified sites in the area post-date A.D. 1000 and the introduction of maize agriculture. The data indicate that although there were people connected to the Hopwellian network in the region, no large Hopewell centers existed, in fact, no large centers of any kind existed until well after BOM times.

srff: To be clear, the lack of large fortified sites and maize agriculture is only for the upstate New York region during Book of Mormon times, or does that extend into other areas of the Hopewellian network?

[Tribunal]

Brother Gardner, have you studied or researched any of the groups from North America, or have you focused mainly in Central America?

[shrff]

srff: To be clear, the lack of large fortified sites and maize agriculture is only for the upstate New York region during Book of Mormon times, or does that extend into other areas of the Hopewellian network?

There is a pretty big literature on these issues. As an aside, it bothers me when Meldrumites and others boldly announce that "archaeologists know almost nothing about Hopewell" because there really is a rich body of knowledge.

There is a good review article in Science (now 20 years old) that gives a short overview of the origins of agriculture in the Eastern US.

Smith, Bruce D.

1989 Origins of Agriculture in Eastern North America. Science 246:1566-1571.

This article summarizes the widely-accepted idea that maize was introduced into the Eastern Woodlands as early as A.D. 200 from the Southwest, but remained a minor cultigen in agricultural suites dominated by other indigenously domesticated crops for centuries (primarily Squash, Sump Weed, Sunflower, and chenopod). Between A.D. 800-1100, subsistence economies rapidly shifted to maize dominance, enabling the emergence of more complex sociopolotical formations such as the proto-Iroquoian Confederation, Fort Ancient polities, and certainly Cahokia and Moundville. John Clark cites some study other in his Cumorah paper putting the introduction of maize to upstate New York around A.D. 1000.

My impression of the more recent literature is that there's a few people who are flapping about how maize enabled the Hopewell Interaction Sphere, but their data are not very convincing to me.

I know less about Hopewell architecture, but there seems to be a few settlement pattern models that have been debated. Them most recent thinking posits small, dispersed settlements within the catchment of non-residential ceremonial centers.

Abrams, Elliot M.

2009 Hopewell Archaeology: A View from the Northern Woodlands. Journal of Archaeological Research 17:169-204.

Carr, Christopher and Troy Case (editors)

Gathering Hopewell: Society, Ritual, and Ritual Interaction. Plenum Publishers, New York.

The latter includes a chapter on Hopewell silver working that I've been wanting to read.

Despite the presence of fortification features at some Hopewell sites, the bulk of the fortifications in Moundbuilder sites date to later time periods (Fort Ancient and later). Architectural and bioarchaeological data suggest that the Hopewell were not very war-like.

Johnson, C.

2002 Culturally Modified Human Remains from the Hopewell Mound Group. PhD Dissertation. Department of Anthropology, Ohio State University, Columbus.

Milner, G.

An Osteological Perspective on Prehistoric Warfare. In Regional Approaches to Mortuary Analysis, edited by L.A. Beck, pp. 221-246.

Although, see the following for a counter-argument.

Seeman, M.F.

1988 Ohio Hopewell Trophy Skull Artifacts as Evidence for Competition in Middle Woodland Societies circa 50 B.C.-A.D.350. American Antiquity 53:565-577.

Let me know if you want pdfs of any of this stuff. I'm not sure how you're fixed for JSTOR access these days, but it's no big deal for me to send you the articles, although, you're on your own if you want the books!

[Brant Gardner]

Let me know if you want pdfs of any of this stuff. I'm not sure how you're fixed for JSTOR access these days, but it's no big deal for me to send you the articles, although, you're on your own if you want the books!

Unfortunately, I have no access to JSTOR (the problem of being a dilletante researcher instead of one actually tied to an institution of higher learning). I would love anything you have in PDF (please send to brant_gardner at hotmail.com).

For Tribunal: I know very little about the archaeology north of Mexico City. What little I do know starts declining in the Southwest and drops off dramatically from there (and doesn't go much farther south than San Salvador).

[poulsenll]

I also find Lawrence Poulson's site on Mormon Geography to be brilliant.

I dont know if there was any real brilliance about the site but it was mainly a lot of hard work to gather the data and required much reading, thinking and rereading of the Book of Mormon text. As I have said many times, the only revealed information about Book of Mormon geography is found in the text. Although there are over 500 textual references to directions, geographic features and geographic relationships, it is far too easy to pick out a few geographic features, ignore the rest and build a theory that fits ones preconcieved location of choice. The most common failure is to ignore the three dimensional relationships described in the text. The other common failure is to apply modern concepts of directional relationships instead of researching how ancient cultures thought of location and geography. For those interested in ancient and modern Mesoamerican concepts of direction see http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=2&id=655.

Larry P

[notHagoth7]

This picture drives me crazy. Why is he in short sleeves in the snow?

Anciently, such behavior was said to be quite common in cold weather among the peoples of northern Europe.