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Ancient Civilization in North America


Tribunal

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Is there any evidence of civilizations in North America like the Mayans or Olmec? If so what do we know about them?

Yes, the Hopewell Culture. This from Wiki.

The Hopewell tradition (also incorrectly called the "Hopewell culture") is the term used to describe common aspects of the Native American culture that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE. The Hopewell tradition was not a single culture or society, but a widely dispersed set of related populations, which were connected by a common network of trade routes,[1] known as the Hopewell Exchange System. At its greatest extent, the Hopewell exchange system ran from the Southeastern United States into the southeastern Canadian shores of Lake Ontario. Within this area societies participated in a high degree of exchange with the highest amount of activity along waterways. The Hopewell exchange system received materials from all over the United States. Most of the items traded were exotic materials and were received by people living in the major trading and manufacturing areas. These people then converted the materials into products and exported them through local and regional exchange networks. The objects created by the Hopewell exchange system spread far and wide and have been seen in many burials outside the Midwest.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition

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The Hopewell people never had a large enough population that the Book of Mormon describes and were by far a trade route group of people. I feel they very possibly might have been influenced by migrations coming north out of Mesoamerica but as the subject people of the Book of Mormon I don't think so (IMO).

However I believe that they could have very well been some of the people (also people in Peru)Christ visited for he visited not just the Nephites at Bountiful.

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If North America is not a good candidate for the Book of Mormon is that because Central America has provided sufficient evidence or because North America not enough evidence?

Some of what I've seen causes me to believe North America stands a chance at being the place.

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If North America is not a good candidate for the Book of Mormon is that because Central America has provided sufficient evidence or because North America not enough evidence?

Mesoamerica shows the technology described in the BOM -- written records, calendar, concrete, etc. That evidence is lacking in NA.

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Mesoamerica shows the technology described in the BOM -- written records, calendar, concrete, etc. That evidence is lacking in NA.

cdowis,

Written records -- but AFAIK nothing that ties into Hebrew or Egyptian.

Calendar -- there is literally an oversupply of calendars in Mesoamerica. Only there aren't any 7-day-calendars. Seems if a culture was trying to follow the Law of Moses and that they had their day of rest every 7th day (Saturday) then we should find a 7 day calendar.

Concrete -- the Book of Mormon doesn't mention concrete, but rather "cement". They're not the same thing. Concrete contains cement plus gravel plus sand.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-concrete-and-cement.htm

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cdowis,

Written records -- but AFAIK nothing that ties into Hebrew or Egyptian.

Calendar -- there is literally an oversupply of calendars in Mesoamerica. Only there aren't any 7-day-calendars. Seems if a culture was trying to follow the Law of Moses and that they had their day of rest every 7th day (Saturday) then we should find a 7 day calendar.

Concrete -- the Book of Mormon doesn't mention concrete, but rather "cement". They're not the same thing. Concrete contains cement plus gravel plus sand.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-concrete-and-cement.htm

The Mayan glyph Y and Z are a seven day week

lunarg2.jpg

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If North America is not a good candidate for the Book of Mormon is that because Central America has provided sufficient evidence or because North America not enough evidence?

Some of what I've seen causes me to believe North America stands a chance at being the place.

North America matches some traditional thinking but has been slowly losing ground for instance it has no written language that dates back to the Book of Mormon, no calenders, no cement, not a large enough population, no domesticated agriculture or animals, no remenants of a large civilazation.

As for Mesoamerica it has been gaining popularity because it has all of the above, Joseph Smith himself said it would be a good idea to compare them (Mayan civilization)and that it (Mesoamerica) was the most accurate of the histories of the Book of Mormon yet). The more we find out, the more easily we can see it in the Book of Mormon.

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The Cohokian (Illinois)people are a great interest to me and is one of the civilizations that I feel could have been influenced by northern migration from Mesoamerica. They existed shortly after the Book of Mormon ended and have some similarities.

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If North America is not a good candidate for the Book of Mormon is that because Central America has provided sufficient evidence or because North America not enough evidence?

Some of what I've seen causes me to believe North America stands a chance at being the place.

One of the convincing things to me of a Meso-American setting is that the only mention of snow in the Book of Mormon is in the Old Worls context. There is not one mention of cold weather, snow, ice etc affecting the people, especially in the context of the conduct of the wars. If the setting were North America there would have been considerable cold times. And that would have had an effect.

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Speaking of buildings of cement, this verse has always intrigued me a great deal.

Mormon 1:

6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.

7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

Mormon's homeland was not the main Nephite civilization. He's careful to point out how different and populated the land southward was compared with where he lived. I would expect the land northward not to be as populated, assuming he came from there.

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One of the convincing things to me of a Meso-American setting is that the only mention of snow in the Book of Mormon is in the Old Worls context. There is not one mention of cold weather, snow, ice etc affecting the people, especially in the context of the conduct of the wars. If the setting were North America there would have been considerable cold times. And that would have had an effect.

Arnold Friberg certainly didn't have a problem with snow. :P

ArtBook__086_086__MoroniHidesThePlateInTheHillCumorah____.jpg

Or even maple leaves, or large hardwoods, which only grow in cold climates.

Mormon_Bids_Farewell_to_a_Once_Great_Nation_by_Arnold_Friberg.jpg

He went back and forth with the brethren when he was commissioned to do this series. I have no problem with any of it.

BTW, if anyone is interested, he is failing fast. Expect an obit fairly soon.

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EbedAssociation.png

Frieborg is a great artist with great talent. In addition to oak leaves, he also married Nordic and Greco-Roman motifs into the armor. But just because he can put his imagination on canvas does not require me to accept his imagination as having any bearing on reality.

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cdowis,

Written records -- but AFAIK nothing that ties into Hebrew or Egyptian.

Calendar -- there is literally an oversupply of calendars in Mesoamerica. Only there aren't any 7-day-calendars. Seems if a culture was trying to follow the Law of Moses and that they had their day of rest every 7th day (Saturday) then we should find a 7 day calendar.

Concrete -- the Book of Mormon doesn't mention concrete, but rather "cement". They're not the same thing. Concrete contains cement plus gravel plus sand.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-concrete-and-cement.htm

It doesn't have to Reformed Egyptian was the language used for the gold plates. Nowhere does it say it was the language used in commerce of dailey interactions..

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Frieborg is a great artist with great talent. In addition to oak leaves, he also married Nordic and Greco-Roman motifs into the armor. But just because he can put his imagination on canvas does not require me to accept his imagination as having any bearing on reality.

While I'm not a huge fan of Friberg personally (he kicked over my camera in his studio once because he was mad at how his paint looked on video), I don't think his geographic interpretations are contrary to what has been taught by the brethren.

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If North America is not a good candidate for the Book of Mormon is that because Central America has provided sufficient evidence or because North America not enough evidence?

Last time I checked, Mesoamerica was in North America.

north-america.jpg

Arnold Friberg certainly didn't have a problem with snow.

ArtBook__086_086__MoroniHidesThePlateInTheHillCumorah____.jpg

No one denies that Moroni buried the plates in New York, so yes, there could have been snow. The debate is over whether there was snow, cold and ice in the Book of Mormon lands. I certainly didn't see any snow around Mormon and Moroni in the second painting.

Snow and ice affect military operations and there is not one reference to crossing a frozen river or suffering casualties because of the cold. In many European winter battles, there were more casualties because of cold weather than there was from the enemy. That no casualties are mentioned in the Book of Mormon from snow and ice is significant. Could George Washington have recorded his military trials without mentioning it? No. And yet some would have us believe that a book spanning as many years as the Book of Mormon does could have taken place in the north countries and not mention it even once!

Not likely in my view, but believe as you wish.

.

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The last battle at Cumorah panting is clearly in the Fall, look at the leaves. Why would snow matter in that setting?

Mormon gives us very little information about the Cumorah setting, other than they were fleeing and gathering there for 4 years before the battle. I have no reason to assume most of the wars of the BOM were fought in that climate, except for the last one, and we don't know if it was fought during the winter. Sorry, no Valley Forge comparisons here.

The only real clue we have as to it's location was that it was a day's journey south from what the Jaredites called the waters of Ripliancum, "which by interpretation is large, or to exceed all." If that doesn't fit the Palmyra region south of the Great Lakes, I don't know what does.

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The only real clue we have as to [Cumorah's] location was that it was a day's journey south from what the Jaredites called the waters of Ripliancum, "which by interpretation is large, or to exceed all." If that doesn't fit the Palmyra region south of the Great Lakes, I don't know what does.

It all depends on where Ripliancum is. Cumorah was north of the narrow neck of land. Very few scholars would agree that this land is in the Great Lakes region. A snake infestation cut off the narrow neck of land for generations -- very unlikely for a place with cold climate. As for Cumorah, itself, the New York drumlin's size is another factor against it. Encamping tens of thousands of warriors around it over a period of four years would completely engulf it. But the greatest thing going against it is not just its size or that its in the wrong place, but that it makes no sense for Moroni to travel for years going out west, then circling around and coming back into the thick of the very people who were seeking his life! Strategically, it's like asking to be killed.

Not only that, but Mormon buried other records in Cumorah. Why would the small plates be buried in a separate location than the others if they were all buried in the same hill?

That part of New York NEVER sustained a population that would be consistent with the description in the Book of Mormon. Do I believe that Nephites migrated into the northern lands? Yes, there are many reasons to think that coexisting cultures could be found throughout the northern countries (thus, Zelph). Moroni dedicated temples all over what is now the United States and was, in my opinion, moving away from the Lamanites, not towards them. If the Lamanites lived in Florida, weather may not have been an issue for them, but given the distances described in the Book of Mormon, weather would have been a problem for the Nephites.

If someone could show me a map that made sense showing the land northward, land southward and the narrow neck as it was in relation to Cumorah, I might reconsider. Part of me wishes the Nephites thrived in the northeast U.S., but as one who's spent a lot of time there, please believe me when I tell you how cold it gets. With all the wars Alma described, I assure you that weather would have been a factor in some of them (unless they agreed to only fight in the summer, spring and autumn months). There's no evidence to support that, however.

.

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CS, were going to agree to disagree. There are definitely different camps with lots of arguments on both sides.

BTW, not sure why you're bringing the wars of Alma into it, the people didn't even start migrating into the land northward until the wars were over, at the end if Alma.

And no, I don't think they thrived in the North East US. In fact, they only fled there... and died.

Cheers.

Edit to change lost of arguments to lots of arguments. No freudian slip intended. :P

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