Lifting the Ban on Blacks

[Jason]

In my mind, God's direct, written word would seem to have more power than man's summary.

Isn't all written scripture a summation by man? I don't recall any claims that God wrote any of it Himself, with His own hands.

[cinepro]

Isn't all written scripture a summation by man? I don't recall any claims that God wrote any of it Himself, with His own hands.

Some revelations are given as direct dictation in the Lord's voice.

[cinepro]

I am saying that revelations of this magnitude have a history of being recorded. Joseph received revelations that were recorded and are interpreted from the written word. Where is the revelation on the ban? Has it been recorded and not published, or was it a consensual feeling of the twelve leading to a declaration?

In my mind, God's direct, written word would seem to have more power than man's summary.

As far as I know, every record we have of the event describes it as a group feeling.

There is a story told by Ed Kimball (President Kimball's son)in his recent bio of SWK that Elder McConkie got a little too dramatic in describing the event as if they "heard a voice", and President Kimball asked him to tone down his language.

[birdgirl]

This is mostly a repeat of previous post but it addresses the confusion over the alleged reversal by BY.

I read The Church and The Negro by John Lund. This book was written pre- lifting of the ban and while not official doctrine he says: "Much thought and consideration were given to the propriety of producing the following writing. It was for this reason that Church leaders in high positions were consulted. Although no official endorsement was sought, the author was encouraged to exercise his rights as an individual to publish this book."

Lund says that Elijah Abel received the priesthood under the misunderstanding that he was 100% white. Evidently Abel was one-eighth black and those who ordained him did not know. Lund quotes Joseph Smith as saying "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood." FWIW, his source is a book by William E. Berrett (The Church and the Negroid People) and Berrett actually quotes A. O. Smoot quoting Joseph Smith.

Lund continues by quoting from Jensen's LDS Biographical Encyclopedia: "The entry is misleading because it does not disclose that Elijah Abel was only part Negro and does not disclose the fact that in a meeting, May 31, 1879, at the home of President A. O. Smoot, Provo, Utah, leaders of the Church reapproved that the Priesthood was not for the Negro, and that Elijah Abel was not to exercise any Priesthood rights. The fact that subsequent to that date Elijah Abel was called on a mission does not necessarily imply that he participated in any baptism or ordination."

The book goes on to discuss other black members of the church (Jane Manning James and Isaac Lewis Manning, Samuel Chambers and Green Flake) but he says that they were only baptized- none were given the Priesthood. There is a wiki article that mentions

[DanGB]

Consiglieri,

First off, bravo for taking the assignment!

I think above all you got to be honest to yourself in whatever you say and present. I would take the approach that there is plenty of information accessible to all those you will speak in front of. They will eventually see it and figure things out, particulalrly the discrepancies you've already brought up. So it's kinda up to you and how you want them to think of your level of honesty and candor later.

I know how I would handle it, but we are all different. Good luck!

[GingerRed]

If they tried to hand me the Priesthood, I would throw it right back at 'em! I don't want it! LOL

Anyone who understands the responsibility and the accountability that goes along with holding the Priesthood, no thanks! Women don't need it. We are spiritual and special daughters of Heavenly Father enough already.

[why me]

This is mostly a repeat of previous post but it addresses the confusion over the alleged reversal by BY.

I read The Church and The Negro by John Lund. This book was written pre- lifting of the ban and while not official doctrine he says: "Much thought and consideration were given to the propriety of producing the following writing. It was for this reason that Church leaders in high positions were consulted. Although no official endorsement was sought, the author was encouraged to exercise his rights as an individual to publish this book."

Lund says that Elijah Abel received the priesthood under the misunderstanding that he was 100% white. Evidently Abel was one-eighth black and those who ordained him did not know. Lund quotes Joseph Smith as saying "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood." FWIW, his source is a book by William E. Berrett (The Church and the Negroid People) and Berrett actually quotes A. O. Smoot quoting Joseph Smith.

Lund continues by quoting from Jensen's LDS Biographical Encyclopedia: "The entry is misleading because it does not disclose that Elijah Abel was only part Negro and does not disclose the fact that in a meeting, May 31, 1879, at the home of President A. O. Smoot, Provo, Utah, leaders of the Church reapproved that the Priesthood was not for the Negro, and that Elijah Abel was not to exercise any Priesthood rights. The fact that subsequent to that date Elijah Abel was called on a mission does not necessarily imply that he participated in any baptism or ordination."

The book goes on to discuss other black members of the church (Jane Manning James and Isaac Lewis Manning, Samuel Chambers and Green Flake) but he says that they were only baptized- none were given the Priesthood. There is a wiki article that mentions

[why me]

Consiglieri,

First off, bravo for taking the assignment!

I think above all you got to be honest to yourself in whatever you say and present. I would take the approach that there is plenty of information accessible to all those you will speak in front of. They will eventually see it and figure things out, particulalrly the discrepancies you've already brought up. So it's kinda up to you and how you want them to think of your level of honesty and candor later.

I know how I would handle it, but we are all different. Good luck!

The podcast has the most accurate information to date about what happened with blacks and the ban. It was not always a pretty picture but honesty is always good.

[why me]

This is a little strange. I know of no recorded revelation lifting the ban on blacks holding the priesthood. There is a written declaration, but no revelation. There is also, apparently, no recorded revelation forbidding blacks from holding the priesthood. What then, was God's involvement in any of this, if anything?

This may be true. But this is how it has been described:

The Revelation

Many witnesses described the 1978 revelation on the priesthood. Wrote the past LDS Church Historian:

As a historian I sought to learn the particulars and record them in my private diary. The following account is based on dozens of interviews with persons who talked with church officials after the revelation was announced. Although members of the Twelve and the First Presidency with whom I sought interviews felt they should not elaborate on what happened, I learned details from family members and friends to whom they had made comments. . . .

Those in attendance said that as [President Kimball] began his earnest prayer, they suddenly realized that it was not Kimball's prayer, but the Lord speaking through him. A revelation was being declared. Kimball himself realized that the words were not his but the Lord's. During that prayer some of the Twelve -- at least two who have said so publicly -- were transported into a celestial atmosphere, saw a divine presence and the figures of former presidents of the church (portraits of whom were hanging on the walls around them) smiling to indicate their approval and sanction. . . .

At the end of the heavenly manifestation Kimball, weeping for joy, confronted the church members, many of them also sobbing, and asked if they sustained this heavenly instruction. Embracing, all nodded vigorously and jubilantly their sanction. There had been a startling and commanding revelation from God -- an ineffable experience.

Two of the apostles present described the experience as a "day of Pentecost" similar to the one in the Kirtland Temple on April 6, 1836, the day of its dedication. They saw a heavenly personage and heard heavenly music. To the temple-clothed members, the gathering, incredible and without compare, was the greatest single event of their lives. Those I talked with wept as they spoke of it. All were certain they had witnessed a revelation from God.[11]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Lifting_the_ban

The church historian was leonard Arringtom.

[consiglieri]

Hey Consig,

I have found the best resource on this subject is Armand Mauss' "The Fading of Pharaoh's Curse"

http://www.mormonstudies.net/dialogue/pharoah.pdf

Also:

"Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview" by Lester Bush -- this one is significant because it was written before the ban was lifted.

http://www.mormonstudies.net/dialogue/bush_mormonism_negrodoctrine.pdf

Thanks for these links, Seth.

They look awesome!

I did some research on this about 20-years ago, but have forgotten most everything and am left with the impressions I took away without the historical basis.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I am not sure where you live. Do you have any Blacks in your class? I have many in mine. If so will it change your approch?

I think that's a very good question, Pa Pa.

There are no blacks in my class, it being a typical LDS ward, but if there were blacks, and if I knew them, I think I might approach them in advance and tell them what I am going to be talking about, and ask them if they have any insights they think would be good to share with the class.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

If you look at the topic of the lesson, it would entirely appropriate (and very interesting) to end the class by asking the members for ideas on what might be revealed in the future, and writing their responses on the board. Their answers would indicate exactly how committed they are to the idea of "Continuing Revelation".

That's a great idea!

It has been my 30-year experience that most Mormons tend to be quite committed to the idea of "Continuing Revelation" . . . so long as it does nothing more than confirm current beliefs.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

So, do you believe that witholding the priesthood from women at this time is in fact an error - something the Church came up with independent of any revelation and not in fact sanctioned by God?

Show me the revelation saying women can't hold the priesthood and we'll talk.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jason]

Show me the revelation saying women can't hold the priesthood and we'll talk.

Two dodges. I guess you don't want to answer that one.

[why me]

That's a great idea!

It has been my 30-year experience that most Mormons tend to be quite committed to the idea of "Continuing Revelation" . . . so long as it does nothing more than confirm current beliefs.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

With blacks and the priesthood, you will need to discuss the difference between doctrine and folklore. There is still a lot of folklore when it comes to blacks and the priesthood ban. Also, many leaders made quite racist statements about blacks to enforce the policy. That also has much to do with folklore. The podcast may help you to see where this is all leading.

[consiglieri]

You should listen to the podcast that I posted previously. It is all in there. Abel was classified black and also as a mulatto. But he was still given the priesthood. In fact, Abel was a seventy. It was orson hyde that began the ball rolling with the priesthood ban policy. It was never doctrine but a policy.

Here is the podcast:

http://www.staylds.com/?p=234

I appreciate your posting this link (twice!), whyme.

I intent to give it a listen as soon as I get a chance.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I know how I would handle it, but we are all different. Good luck!

Thank you for the kind words, DanGB.

I would be interested in knowing how you would handle it, if you don't mind sharing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Two dodges. I guess you don't want to answer that one.

Dodges?

No revelation said blacks could not hold the priesthood . . . and then blacks could hold the priesthood.

No revelation said women could not hold the priesthood . . .

You fill in the blank.

Or at least tell me how the two are appreciably different.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[why me]

Also the dvd mentioned in this artlce from the ldsgenesisgroup may help:

http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/heralddoc.html

Black-and-White Issue:

New DVD Aims to Dispel Cloud of Racism Hanging Over LDS Church

By Cody Clark

[consiglieri]

If they tried to hand me the Priesthood, I would throw it right back at 'em! I don't want it! LOL

Anyone who understands the responsibility and the accountability that goes along with holding the Priesthood, no thanks! Women don't need it. We are spiritual and special daughters of Heavenly Father enough already.

Boys are just as spiritual and special as girls.

The Priesthood just makes us better.

God always liked us best.

[why me]

Boys are just as spiritual and special as girls.

The Priesthood just makes us better.

God always liked us best.

Check out the dvd that I listed above from the ldsgenesisgroup. I hear that this dvd is working miracles in healing the wounds and it gives understanding to the issue.

http://www.ldsgenesi.../heralddoc.html

[Hamba Tuhan]

There are no blacks in my class, it being a typical LDS ward, but if there were blacks, and if I knew them, I think I might approach them in advance and tell them what I am going to be talking about, and ask them if they have any insights they think would be good to share with the class.

It's too bad then that my African housemate is not in your class and available for consultation. He'd have some rather forceful insights for you, primarily along the lines of stop speculating and start teaching established doctrine since what we have is true, and people need to know it.

[consiglieri]

It's too bad then that my African housemate is not in your class and available for consultation. He'd have some rather forceful insights for you, primarily along the lines of stop speculating and start teaching established doctrine since what we have is true, and people need to know it.

Does your African housemate have an opinion on why blacks were denied the Priesthood until 1978?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jason]

Dodges?

No revelation said blacks could not hold the priesthood . . . and then blacks could hold the priesthood.

No revelation said women could not hold the priesthood . . .

You fill in the blank.

Or at least tell me how the two are appreciably different.

A simple "yes, I believe the current Church policy regarding women being witheld from the priesthood is in error" or "no, I do not beleive the current Church policy regarding women being witheld from the priesthood is in error" would be preferable to my drawing my own conclusion of what you believe.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Does your African housemate have an opinion on why blacks were denied the Priesthood until 1978?

Yes, he is totally convinced that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led by the Lord Himself and that all things are done in His wisdom and order.