Did Yahweh Procreate Cain with Eve?

[volgadon]

Well, that clears it up for me.

She did ask for a Jewish scholar.

[Calm]

As Maklelan noted, it seems that the thread about his dissertation has disappeared from CARM. Funny enough, I posted a response similar to your observation regarding their "inflated sense of self-importance." I said to think Maklelan was getting feedback was an utter lie and nothing more than an attempt to make themselves feel important on such a pathetic, unknown board. I suggested removing the C & R from CARM, seeing that it lacks any kind of Christ-like behavior and is obvious that there is no research that takes place among its posters.

Hey, Walker, tell us how you really feel!

[WalkerW]

Your exact words were:

I had looked for those. Thank you much.

[WalkerW]

Hey, Walker, tell us how you really feel!

Well, if you insist:

http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/11/make-bunny.html

[Ron Beron]

She did ask for a Jewish scholar.

I know, I know...but, at best my Hebrew is rudimentary and I had to depend on a translation to help me. Next time post it in Japanese.

[Calm]

Well, if you insist:

http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/11/make-bunny.html

LOL.

And thanks for a link to Jack's blog. Reminds me I've owed her a letter for like a year now....I'm trying to remember where the last 8 months went, what a blur most of it was.

[volgadon]

I know, I know...but, at best my Hebrew is rudimentary and I had to depend on a translation to help me. Next time post it in Japanese.

Catherine supposedly has a whole slew of yeshiva graduates to ask.

[Catherine Aurelia]

What a worthless responce. Nothing like just sticking your head in the sand and saying "nu'uh".

I would say the most worthless response I ever read to any post was accusing Jesus of having only a rudimentary knowledge of Hebrew. I supposed all the Mormons here will gather together and put down Jesus' knowledge of Hebrew in order to shore up the accusation..........is that right? Or is there one Mormon here who does not agree. I remember when we began this thread that everybody went bonkers saying that the translation of Genesis 4 could in no way suggest Yahweh had sexual relations with Eve, and then things changed. My goodness, I wonder why?

[Catherine Aurelia]

Please. "Non-biased"? You mean a Jesuit or a Jewish scholar? Does that equal "non-biased" in your view?

Pretty much = educated.

[Catherine Aurelia]

If this is indeed the case why dopes the original state that "I have gotten a manchild with the Lord." I realize the supposed context, what we are question is why does the inerant bible use such phrasing when it is wrong.

After she "knew" her husband, Adam. Does that go over everybody's head here? - and she had "gotten" or "attained" a child was with God's help, not some kind of paganistic sexual union. I can't believe what I'm reading here - how quickly every Mormon attributes paganism to Moses' writings (Eve having sex with Yahweh - that would be the pre-incarnate Jesus according to the LDS who was still in a spirit state!). And this view because a person who has yet to even obtain his masters says it's true. I cannot believe how easily you people submit. Are there any Mormons here who disagree with that position? Or is it all "yh-hu?"

And do you all agree that Jesus' knowledge of Hebrew was rudimentary at best, if he knew it at all? Just wondering how many will fall in lock step with that position?

[Ron Beron]

I would say the most worthless response I ever read to any post was accusing Jesus of having only a rudimentary knowledge of Hebrew. I supposed all the Mormons here will gather together and put down Jesus' knowledge of Hebrew in order to shore up the accusation..........is that right? Or is there one Mormon here who does not agree. I remember when we began this thread that everybody went bonkers saying that the translation of Genesis 4 could in no way suggest Yahweh had sexual relations with Eve, and then things changed. My goodness, I wonder why?

Good grief...give it up. Mak was right. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but understood the written Hebrew. You do not have to rely only on Mormon or worldly scholars and a simple google search finds the results from the evangelicals such as this...

Aramaic

Jesus' spoke

Aramaic,

the common language of Galilee during his lifetime. Aramaic was an ancient Semitic language related to Hebrew much as French is related to Spanish or as Cantonese is related to Mandarin. (Thanks to Prof. Zev bar-Lev for help with these analogies.) Though Jews had once spoken Hebrew as their primary language, this changed when Israel was overthrown, first by the Assyrians in the eight-century B.C. and then by the Babylonians in the sixth-century B.C. By the time of Jesus Aramaic was so common among Jews that the reading of the Hebrew Scripture in the synagogue was accompanied by translation into Aramaic. (For a helpful overview of Aramaic, see the

"Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon"

website of Hebrew Union College.)

In addition to the strong circumstantial evidence that Jesus spoke Aramaic as his primary language, we find direct evidence for this theory from the New Testament gospels. Though these gospels were written originally in Greek, at several points Jesus' words are given in Aramaic, for example:

"Talitha cum"

(Mark 5:41, "Little girl, get up!"); "Abba" (Mark 14:36. "Father");

"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?"

(Mark 15:34, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). In these cases the actual Aramaic words of Jesus were remembered and passed on even by Greek-speaking Christians.

These passages and others from the gospels, combined with the predominance of Aramaic in Palestine in the first century A.D., make it virtually certain that Aramaic was Jesus' primary language. (There are a few scholars who believe that Hebrew was the primary language of Jesus, but they are quite in the minority. See, for an example, the

Jerusalem School of Synopitc Research

.)

But at this point you might be wondering: "So what? This is useful if you're a biblical scholar, or if you're Mel Gibson and want to use authentic ancient languages in your movie, but does the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic make any difference to the rest of us?" Yes, I believe it does. It helps us understand something essential about Jesus, his culture, and his mission.

In my book

Jesus Revealed

I explain this observation: "The prevalence of Aramaic throughout the world of Jesus was a nagging reminder of a sad history [the history of Jewish domination by Aramaic speaking nations]. . . . Although Aramaic-speaking Jews in Jesus' day would have taken their language for granted most of the time, they surely would have felt a sense of dislocation when they couldn't understand the weekly synagogue reading of their own Scripture in its original Hebrew. . . . [Jesus and his contemporaries] didn't speak the language in which God had once revealed his own name. While living within the physical boundaries of the Promised Land, they were not fully at home. The words they spoke - and their yearning hearts - remained in exile" (

Jesus Revealed,

p. 20). Thus, even from the fact that Jesus and his people spoke Aramaic we can derive a sense of the Jewish longing for the full restoration God once promised through the

Hebrew

prophets.

Speaking of Hebrew, you might wonder if Jesus spoke Hebrew in addition to Aramaic. To this question and its significance I'll turn in Part 3.

Part 3: Jesus and Hebrew

So far we've learned that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and that this fact reminds us of the Jewish longing for the restoration God had promised through the Hebrew prophets. But did Jesus speak Hebrew in addition to Aramaic?

We have very little direct evidence by which to answer this question. As I explained in my last post, Jesus and his Jewish peers spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew. Yet upper class Jews learned Hebrew as a literary and liturgical language. Many others, even those from the lower classes - like a carpenter, for example -- learned Hebrew so that they might be able to read and understand the Torah (the Mosaic Law) in its original language.

One text from the biblical gospels strongly suggests that Jesus had learned Hebrew as a second language. In Luke 4 Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, where he read a section from the prophet Isaiah (Luke 4:16-19). It is almost certain that this scroll was written in Hebrew, not Aramaic.

The only other passages from the gospels that might indicate Jesus' knowledge of Hebrew are those in which he debates theology with learned Jewish teachers (scribes and Pharisees). These debates generally occurred in Hebrew, much as Catholic theologians have used Latin for scholarly debates at the Vatican, even into modern times.

Did Jesus know Hebrew as a second language? Though we cannot prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt, it seems most likely that the answer is "yes."

(bold mine)

What difference does this make to us? It reminds us of Jesus' Hebrew roots. These roots grew deeply into the fertile soil of the Hebrew Scriptures, especially the prophets, and most pointedly the prophet Isaiah. Christians are often familiar with the idea that Jesus fulfilled the prophets, understanding this to mean that he did things the prophets predicted. But Jesus' fulfillment of the Hebrew prophets goes much deeper than this. His way of thinking about God's work in the world, his view of his divine calling, his fundamental message, and ultimately his understanding of the necessity of his death all come from the prophets.

I have known this for most of my adult life. But I had never fully grasped the extent to which Jesus' ministry must be understood in light of the Hebrew prophets until I wrote

Jesus Revealed.

In preparation for this project I re-read the prophets and was astounded by how much their message was continued by and fulfilled in Jesus. I concluded more than ever before that we will never truly understand Jesus until we immerse our minds and hearts in the Hebrew prophets. There we find expression of the yearning for restoration that Jesus offers. There we find hope for the coming of God's kingdom, that which was inaugurated in the ministry of Jesus.

http://www.markdrobe...suslanguage.htm

[Catherine Aurelia]

Good grief...give it up. Mak was right. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but understood the written Hebrew. You do not have to rely only on Mormon or worldly scholars and a simple google search finds the results from the evangelicals such as this...

http://www.markdrobe...suslanguage.htm

In case you missed it in the Scriptures, Jesus was known as a rabbi by the Jews. Rabbis know Hebrew, and in fact, would debate in Hebrew. The position that his Hebrew knowledge was rudimentary is really coming out of left field.

[Catherine Aurelia]

Catherine supposedly has a whole slew of yeshiva graduates to ask.

Can you do better? Actually, I'm looking for a Doctor of Biblical languages from an Anglican seminary that I know. He teaches Hebrew to Anglicans, and is actually quite the liberal. I'll see if I can locate him.

[Catherine Aurelia]

Im stealing a quote from another thread...

Excuse the giberish... I think those are supposed to be Hebrew letters.

http://www.mormonapo...al-progression/

Wisdom is said to have been procreated by God before the earth was created. Does not Eve Proclaim... I have procreadted with the Lord?

1. Gen. 4: 1 1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Wisdom literature refers to what it's called "wisdom." God possessed wisdom (feminie - sophia), which has nothing to do with Jesus being the very Word of God, co-eternal with the Father.

[LeSellers]

In case you missed it in the Scriptures, Jesus was known as a rabbi by the Jews. Rabbis know Hebrew, and in fact, would debate in Hebrew. The position that his Hebrew knowledge was rudimentary is really coming out of left field.

Not as far as you claim.

And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

The title "rabbi" was not solely for the learned, but was a mark of respect. So, when people called Him "rabbi", it was not necessarily because He was a "Rabbi", but because He was a "rabbi".

Lehi

[Ron Beron]

In case you missed it in the Scriptures, Jesus was known as a rabbi by the Jews. Rabbis know Hebrew, and in fact, would debate in Hebrew. The position that his Hebrew knowledge was rudimentary is really coming out of left field.

Only one problem with your argument is that rabbinic Jewry wasn't extant until well after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. No one has declared Jesus didn't know Hebrew only that it wasn't his primary language in which he communicated on a daily basis. Speaking in Hebrew would have been more anachronistic. Writing and reading Hebrew was something much different.

[Ron Beron]

Wisdom literature refers to what it's called "wisdom." God possessed wisdom (feminie - sophia), which has nothing to do with Jesus being the very Word of God, co-eternal with the Father.

There is considerable evidence to show that Jesus was considered a 1st century equivalent of Wisdom. In the book of Matthew Jesus is consistently referred to as Wisdom. John refers to Jesus as the Logos which is the Greek equivalent of Wisdom.

[Daniel Peterson]

I would say the most worthless response I ever read to any post was accusing Jesus of having only a rudimentary knowledge of Hebrew. I supposed all the Mormons here will gather together and put down Jesus' knowledge of Hebrew in order to shore up the accusation..........is that right? Or is there one Mormon here who does not agree.

Good grief. This isn't a theological or denominational issue. It's a historical one. An empirical one. Mormons are free to have any opinion they choose on it, and the Church as such has never commented on the matter and couldn't possibly care less. It has nothing to do with whether or not Christ was the atoning Son of God, or whether Evangelicals are Christians.

Presumably Jesus' knowledge of Chinese and Sanskrit was even less than rudimentary. So what? Nor, most likely, did he know Coptic or Armenian. But if somebody wanted to argue that he spoke Chinese, Sanskrit, Coptic, and Armenian fluently, that would be an issue for historical investigation -- it wouldn't take long -- not for theologizing or sectarian polemic.

[Zakuska]

There is considerable evidence to show that Jesus was considered a 1st century equivalent of Wisdom. In the book of Matthew Jesus is consistently referred to as Wisdom. John refers to Jesus as the Logos which is the Greek equivalent of Wisdom.

Not to mention the Fact that Paul Identifies Jesus as Wisdom.

1 Cor 2

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

[Doctor Steuss]

or Jewish. Certainly not Mormons who have a vested interest in shoring up Smith's polytheism.

As you seem to think that Jewish scholars are unable to find the real existence of multiple gods within the Bible, I hope you never unwittingly read some issues of the Journal of Jewish Studies.

[Catherine Aurelia]

Not to mention the Fact that Paul Identifies Jesus as Wisdom.

1 Cor 2

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So, anyplace that the word "wisdom" appears in the Jewish Scriptures, it refers to Jesus?

[Catherine Aurelia]

Good grief. This isn't a theological or denominational issue. It's a historical one. An empirical one. Mormons are free to have any opinion they choose on it, and the Church as such has never commented on the matter and couldn't possibly care less. It has nothing to do with whether or not Christ was the atoning Son of God, or whether Evangelicals are Christians.

Presumably Jesus' knowledge of Chinese and Sanskrit was even less than rudimentary. So what? Nor, most likely, did he know Coptic or Armenian. But if somebody wanted to argue that he spoke Chinese, Sanskrit, Coptic, and Armenian fluently, that would be an issue for historical investigation -- it wouldn't take long -- not for theologizing or sectarian polemic.

So, you are saying that Jesus, a rabbi, only had a rudimentary knowledge of Hebrew?

[Zakuska]

So, anyplace that the word "wisdom" appears in the Jewish Scriptures, it refers to Jesus?

Let Paul Answer your question...

1 Cor 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man

[Catherine Aurelia]

There is considerable evidence to show that Jesus was considered a 1st century equivalent of Wisdom. In the book of Matthew Jesus is consistently referred to as Wisdom. John refers to Jesus as the Logos which is the Greek equivalent of Wisdom.

The Watchtower Society makes a similar argument to shore up its Arianism.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Watchtower Society makes a similar argument to shore up its Arianism.

Yeah and?