Did Yahweh Procreate Cain with Eve?

[Ron Beron]

An article by Benjamin Uffenheimer, an Israeli biblical scholar.

Here he uses the Deut verse and Ps 82.

Well, that clears it up for me.

[maklelan]

In other words, Catherine, you need to provide some contemporary sources that support your interpretation of Ps. 82.

Bible translations are what she provides when this is asked of her, and for her that's all that counts. We already know that Jesuits and Jews are the best scholars ever, and Mormons suck, thanks to her objectivity. I don't know why I keep hoping for anything more from anyone from CARM.

[Pappy Fiddle]

I was struck by something:

Academia doesn't care one iota about whether something is theologically true.

Yet ancient texts written by people like Moses are studied ad mortem. Why would they worry about the age, calligraphy, provenance, style, authorship, wording, etc. etc. of a text if they do not care what it teaches? Their searching, and truth waiting to be found, remind me of something in the Analects of Confucius:

The cherry tree waves its blossoms.

It is not that I do not think of you

But your house is so far away!

Pappy

[maklelan]

I was struck by something:

Yet ancient texts written by people like Moses are studied ad mortem. Why would they worry about the age, calligraphy, provenance, style, authorship, wording, etc. etc. of a text if they do not care what it teaches? Their searching, and truth waiting to be found, remind me of something in the Analects of Confucius:

The cherry tree waves its blossoms.

It is not that I do not think of you

But your house is so far away!

Pappy

For history's sake. Many scholars have theological motivations undergirding their scholarship, but that's not the academy's goal.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do you know Hebrew, or are you just going by what one or two people are saying? I suggest you find a non-biased Hebrew scholar and ask them about the translation.

What a worthless responce. Nothing like just sticking your head in the sand and saying "nu'uh".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

or Jewish. Certainly not Mormons who have a vested interest in shoring up Smith's polytheism.

Just when I thought I had found a worthless comment you come and say something even more worthless. Like Jews are some how magically unbiased.

I can play your game. Until you find a mormons scholar that agrees with your point of view I will not conceed.

[Calm]

Try to explain this to a room full of teenagers or even college students. Subdued snickers and a arrogant view expressed in "yeah, sure".

And some adults who have never grown out of their fascination with sex, though in some it is demonstrated by more of a Victorian paradigm as they are intent on removing sexuality from 'proper society' so to speak.

[Daniel Peterson]

Paul, sir, spoke of the danger of "another Jesus." There is a Biblical Jesus, and "another Jesus," actually many others.

I'm aware of that. However, in the spirit of civil conversation, I haven't brought it up against you.

And I won't.

I would prefer to stick to the evidence.

The Mormon Jesus is deficient

Which, being interpreted, means that the Latter-day Saint view of Jesus differs from yours.

I think I'm supposed to be impressed by that.

The Mormon Jesus sunk and destroyed cities when coming to the New World.

Rather the way the Alexandrian Jesus whom you worship destroyed everybody on earth with a flood except for Noah and Noah's family, wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah, ordered the Israelites to exterminate the men, women, and children of Canaan, will obliterate non-Christians at his second coming, will condemn the majority of humankind to an eternity of torment, and etc.

Unless you reject the Bible and/or the doctrine of the Trinity, your Alexandrian Jesus is thoroughly implicated in each and every one of these fatal deeds and many more besides, so it simply won't do for you to pretend to be offended, theologically, by the destruction described in 3 Nephi.

The Mormon Jesus is sometimes called Quetzacoatl, the horned [sic] serpent.

By whom?

The biblical Jesus is often called a lamb, a vine, a rock, and etc. So what?

These, and other Mormon teachings about Jesus are unacceptable, unbibilical, and make him "another Jesus," which according to Paul must be avoided.

In other words, we're back to the very idea that you once denied holding: It isn't enough to believe in Jesus in order to be saved; one must believe in Jesus and in evangelical-certified doctrine.

Let J represent "acceptance of Jesus," D represent "adherence to evangelically-approved doctrine," and S represent "certainty of salvation."

Plainly, on your understanding, J + D = S, but J < S.

Thus, while acceptance of Jesus is essential to salvation, according to your teaching, it is potentially insufficient. It must be coupled with adherence to evangelically-approved doctrine in order to have assured saving power.

Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased

Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion

Which one is Catherine?

The answer to that is screamingly obvious, at this point.

I absolutely love the notion, though, that a Mormon scholar, no matter how well educated in the relevant disciplines, must necessarily be too biased to take seriously, while the opinions of an Anglican or a Jesuit or a Jewish fellow who once attended yeshiva are objective, unbiased, and to be taken very, very seriously.

If I were to make this sort of stuff up and attribute it to a fictional fundamentalist Protestant zealot in a play or a sketch, I would be attacked (and not altogether without justice) as unfair. We ought, therefore, to be grateful to Catherine Aurelia for coming here and giving us a real-life illustration of precisely such silliness.

.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The answer to that is screamingly obvious, at this point.

.

Obviously!! Lol.

[Jerubaal]

Well, I've just been over having some fun on CARM, and a lot of people are really ticked about Maklelan. Dan, it looks like you're in line to be the next DCP!

[Daniel Peterson]

Well, I've just been over having some fun on CARM, and a lot of people are really ticked about Maklelan. Dan, it looks like you're in line to be the next DCP!

I'm not intending to head down just yet to the Hell that many loving ChristiansTM have predicted for me, you know.

Inspired by your post, though, I took another look at CARM a couple of minutes ago. It's quite the place. (The term toxic waste site comes to mind.)

However, I'm greatly comforted by the fact that, most likely, very few people are aware of it. It's the kind of thing that makes the cause of Christ a stench in the nostrils of more than a few good folks, who understandably conclude that Christianity is an ugly matter of smug, narrow-minded, uninformed, unloving triumphalism.

[maklelan]

Well, I've just been over having some fun on CARM, and a lot of people are really ticked about Maklelan. Dan, it looks like you're in line to be the next DCP!

I just noticed RCM has started a thread about my dissertation. (This is seriously so stupid.) So you're aware, the comments come from a discussion I had on Facebook (at someone else's request - see here) about a similar topic. That was in June. I was then knocking around several different ideas about my dissertation, and my current plan is different. However, nothing he posted changes anything. Here were his comments (which I already quoted in full here):

When someone is doing research for a doctoral dissertation and they have some ideas they want to write about especially in the area of theology, they need someone to discuss ideas with in order to see if their arguments will stand up against theological criticism.

The topic I referenced in my Facebook post was actually turned into a paper that I am all but finished with (I just need a conclusion). I didn't post a word at CARM the entire time I was writing the paper, although I did tell David Bokovoy I was writing the paper just the other day on this very thread. I don't need to run ideas by CARMites when I know they're just going to shriek ignorantly about how much of a heretic I am. As I said before, CARM is for fun when I'm bored.

maklelan was doing that just now with the subject Athanasius and others of you have confronted him on.........the Mormon doctrine of 'Adam - God' in conjunction with the Mormon doctrine of 'pre-existence' in conjunction with 'Sons of Adam' in Deuteronomy 32:8 in conjunction with 'ye are gods' in Psalm 82:6, are all part of a theological argument maklelan is trying to weave together with mesopotamian evidence in order to support Mormon doctrine as ancient beliefs originally held by the Jewish people.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with my dissertation. Here's a part of my introduction where I lay down what I'm actually doing:

The current investigation will briefly evaluate the biblical use of the DC, settling its attention on the Second Temple Period and examining specifically those elements that differentiate the it from earlier council traditions. The historical backdrops of the different texts will be brought to bear on these divergences to see what rhetorical functions they may have served and what may have catalyzed them.

Nothing at all related to Mormon doctrine, to pre-existence, or to any theological argument. RCM is also lying over there at CARM, claiming his guess about my dissertation (quoted above: Adam - God, pre-existence, etc.) was actually something entirely different (namely, identical to what he read on my Facebook post). I've dealt with CARM for a while now, but I'm honestly shocked at the rank hypocrisy and the outright lying that is going on in this silly attempt to denigrate my name. It's astonishing.

[Jerubaal]

I'm not intending to head down just yet to the Hell that many loving ChristiansTM have predicted for me, you know.

Inspired by your post, though, I took another look at CARM a couple of minutes ago. It's quite the place. (The term toxic waste site comes to mind.)

However, I'm greatly comforted by the fact that, most likely, very few people are aware of it. It's the kind of thing that makes the cause of Christ a stench in the nostrils of more than a few good folks, who understandably conclude that Christianity is an ugly matter of smug, narrow-minded, uninformed, unloving triumphalism.

I think this is the first time we've talked since I was a freshman, Dr. Peterson! I hope you know that I've grown up quite a lot in the last 2 years. I'll stop by and say hi sometime.

Anyways, CARM is an interesting place. I don't want to bash it because I don't want to risk getting banned. But I will say this much: I've had my integrity and intelligence insulted on every level by some of those folks, and it almost, almost hurts. Well, not really, but its fun. I'd recommend dropping in occasionally for a nice release (which is what I do).

[Daniel Peterson]

I think this is the first time we've talked since I was a freshman, Dr. Peterson! I hope you know that I've grown up quite a lot in the last 2 years. I'll stop by and say hi sometime.

Do so! I'm in my office occasionally, though I won't be there even for office hours this week and though I'll be traveling a lot at the end of this month and during the first ten days of December.

Anyways, CARM is an interesting place. I don't want to bash it because I don't want to risk getting banned.

By contrast, I'm entirely free to say what I want about it because I never have any intention whatsoever of posting there.

But I will say this much: I've had my integrity and intelligence insulted on every level by some of those folks, and it almost, almost hurts. Well, not really, but its fun.

They're a charming bunch.

I'd recommend dropping in occasionally for a nice release (which is what I do).

If I showed up on CARM, and people there realized who it was, there would be a feeding frenzy. I know that I already get beaten up in threads on CARM from time to time, and I've never posted so much as a line there. (The same thing happens, even more frequently, on the so-called Recovery board.)

[Jerubaal]

A thread started about Maklelan lying and using CARM as an intellectual testing ground for his dissertation ideas has been deleted (after it turned into claims of mass dishonesty on the part of all Mormons). But I saved it on my harddrive, if anyone is interested.

[maklelan]

Well, I've just been over having some fun on CARM, and a lot of people are really ticked about Maklelan. Dan, it looks like you're in line to be the next DCP!

Hmm. . . Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the thread about my dissertation seems to have utterly vanished from CARM. No "Thread Deleted" or anything. It's just gone.

[WalkerW]

Well, I've just been over having some fun on CARM, and a lot of people are really ticked about Maklelan. Dan, it looks like you're in line to be the next DCP!

I never post there anymore, though I couldn't resist the title (I think) "So You're the Same Species as God? Make a bunny."

So I did:

Immature? Sure. But really funny.

[maklelan]

I never post there anymore, though I couldn't resist the title (I think) "So You're the Same Species as God? Make a bunny."

So I did:

Immature? Sure. But really funny.

Ha! That is really funny.

[Jerubaal]

Hmm. . . Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the thread about my dissertation seems to have utterly vanished from CARM. No "Thread Deleted" or anything. It's just gone.

Way ahead of you.

I'll e-mail it to you (If I can find your e-mail address).

[maklelan]

Way ahead of you.

I'll e-mail it to you (If I can find your e-mail address).

It's on the About Me page on my blog.

[WalkerW]

Ha! That is really funny.

I try.

[Calm]

When someone is doing research for a doctoral dissertation and they have some ideas they want to write about especially in the area of theology, they need someone to discuss ideas with in order to see if their arguments will stand up against theological criticism.

Perhaps it's just me, but if I was a professor (instead of just a professor's wife), I can guarantee that if I found someone who was basing his dissertation on critical material he received on a general message board (as opposed to one that was by invitation only and limited to specialists and students in the field), I'd have some harsh words to say about his research skills.

I'll have to ask my husband how he would see it.

Now asking for input on whether or not what he had written was coherent to the lay person....I can see that as useful, but I don't think that's a concern for too many dissertations.

[Daniel Peterson]

The idea that Mak or anybody else would go to CARM -- CARM! -- for critical feedback on a dissertation relating to the exegesis of the Hebrew Bible is simply ludicrous, and, I think, illustrates very nicely the inflated sense of self-importance from which more than a few message boards and message-board posters suffer. (CARM, in my judgment, is one of the worst of them in this regard, as in numerous other regards.)

For critical scholarly feedback, a dissertation-writer would rely on his doctoral committee, audience reaction following presentations at academic conferences, responses from journals to which portions of the dissertation might be submitted, and the like. Not on a bunch of gibbering . . . well, not on the folks at a place like CARM.

[WalkerW]

The idea that Mak or anybody else would go to CARM -- CARM! -- for critical feedback on a dissertation relating to the exegesis of the Hebrew Bible is simply ludicrous, and, I think, illustrates very nicely the inflated sense of self-importance from which more than a few message boards and message-board posters suffer. (CARM, in my judgment, is one of the worst of them in this regard, as in numerous other regards.)

For critical scholarly feedback, a dissertation-writer would rely on his doctoral committee, audience reaction following presentations at academic conferences, responses from journals to which portions of the dissertation might be submitted, and the like. Not on a bunch of gibbering . . . well, not on the folks at a place like CARM.

As Maklelan noted, it seems that the thread about his dissertation has disappeared from CARM. Funny enough, I posted a response similar to your observation regarding their "inflated sense of self-importance." I said to think Maklelan was getting feedback was an utter lie and nothing more than an attempt to make themselves feel important on such a pathetic, unknown board. I suggested removing the C & R from CARM, seeing that it lacks any kind of Christ-like behavior and is obvious that there is no research that takes place among its posters.

[Jerubaal]

As Maklelan noted, it seems that the thread about his dissertation has disappeared from CARM. Funny enough, I posted a response similar to your observation regarding their "inflated sense of self-importance." I said to think Maklelan was getting feedback was an utter lie and nothing more than an attempt to make themselves feel important on such a pathetic, unknown board. I suggested removing the C & R from CARM, seeing that it lacks any kind of Christ-like behavior and is obvious that there is no research that takes place among its posters.

Your exact words were:

This is a complete and utter lie and nothing more than an attempt to make yourself feel important on this pathetic discussion board.

Maklelan toys with you for entertainment. I'm sure he can care less what some grossly ignorant, bigoted Evangelicals who dare try to refer to themselves as Christians has to say about his work or scholarship.

Perhaps the C & R in CARM should be removed since I have yet to read a single Christ-like response to Maklelan. And it is obvious that none of you ever do any research.