The vision of the plates by Lucy Harris, and what changed with her.

[Sevenbak]

According to the History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, in Chapter 23 we read of a remarkable vision that Mrs. Harris had in seeing the plates.

[Sevenbak]

On the subject, here's another little tidbit I didn't realize before, that explains much of Martin Harris's involvement. He too had a vision. It would seem the Lord is behind all his prophecies being fulfilled, every whit.

In Joseph's 1832 history, he writes:

[ttribe]

What turned her against the truth, against her husband, and against Joseph? Was it additional family pressures that eventually led her to deceive her husband into getting the 116 pages? If she was allowed so great a witness as to actually see the plates in vision, why did she turn so easily? And why was she given such an opportunity?

I suppose we could ask the same question regarding Laman and Lemuel regarding their vision of the angel. Or, the children of Israel during the exodus from Egypt. For whatever reason, we have difficulty believing our own eyes.

[Calm]

What turned her against the truth, against her husband, and against Joseph? Was it additional family pressures that eventually led her to deceive her husband into getting the 116 pages? If she was allowed so great a witness as to actually see the plates in vision, why did she turn so easily? And why was she given such an opportunity?

If Lucy Mack Smith's descriptions of her and the events surrounding the Harris' marriage are accurate, then it would appear she was a very prideful woman who thought herself better than her husband and, I get the impression, most people around her. She seemed to want to control things to a great extent.

Both her husband and the Smiths refused to give her satisfaction in this area. With that type of personality (assuming LMS is accurate again), it is not surprising her reaction is one of anger and destructiveness.

OTOH, if LMS has misinterpreted Mrs. Harris' personality, the actions of the Smiths and her husband could have deeply wounded her, leaving her feeling isolated and unwanted. Her actions could then be interpreted a variety of ways, one being providing reassurance in a way that she felt she could trust since after the way she had been treated, she had lost faith in those relationships or perhaps to get attention from those she felt were ignoring her or even one of resentment and a desire to cause pain as they had caused her pain.

I do not believe, considering Lucy is telling this memory late in her life and unfortunately memory is not a static element of thought but is constantly morphing as we access our memories, that we know enough of the woman to draw any real conclusion beyond that it was a shame her husband and her could not resolve the issues of their relationship and that Mrs. Harris, for whatever reason, did not find the peace in the gospel as say LMS had even if life itself was anything but.....

[Joseph Antley]

Lucy Harris also reported that her husband Martin physically abused her.

[alter idem]

What turned her against the truth, against her husband, and against Joseph? Was it additional family pressures that eventually led her to deceive her husband into getting the 116 pages? If she was allowed so great a witness as to actually see the plates in vision, why did she turn so easily? And why was she given such an opportunity?

Do we know for certain that Lucy Harris was responsible for taking the manuscript? Did she admit it? Did someone prove she took it? I don't think we know exactly what happened to the manuscript. We know that some men were planning to use it to set a trap for Joseph, but I don't think we know who they were.

From reading the story of the loss of the manuscript, it sounded like Lucy Harris locked it in her desk for safekeeping and she and Martin Harris went to visit relatives. Harris had shown the manuscript to others so there were people who knew he had it--probably even knew where it was being stored and possibly where the key was. He returned early without his wife and when a friend came to visit, he wanted to show the manuscript--he couldn't find the key so he damaged the desk lock to get it open and found the manuscript missing. When Lucy Harris returned she was outraged he'd ruined her desk.

I think the suspicions about Lucy Harris have been told and retold so often, we've pretty much declared her guilty without sure evidence to prove it.

Now, why did she turn against the work? I don't know. She was excited about it originally and wanted to help with the publication and offered help with finances and suggested things they should do--seemed she wanted to run the show. I suspect the Smiths were wary of her involvement because she was so forceful and wanted to take control and they were wary of having her involved, maybe her motives were not pure. At least, that's what I think would have made them hesitate in accepting her offers of help and unfortunately, she was probably angry at what she saw as their rejection of her and jealous that Martin Harris was being allowed into the inner circle. She turned bitter.

Plenty of people who've lost their faith end up questioning or denying the spiritual experiences they've had. I suspect Lucy was no different.

[Fatboy]

Do we know for certain that Lucy Harris was responsible for taking the manuscript? Did she admit it? Did someone prove she took it? I don't think we know exactly what happened to the manuscript. We know that some men were planning to use it to set a trap for Joseph, but I don't think we know who they were.

From reading the story of the loss of the manuscript, it sounded like Lucy Harris locked it in her desk for safekeeping and she and Martin Harris went to visit relatives. Harris had shown the manuscript to others so there were people who knew he had it--probably even knew where it was being stored and possibly where the key was. He returned early without his wife and when a friend came to visit, he wanted to show the manuscript--he couldn't find the key so he damaged the desk lock to get it open and found the manuscript missing. When Lucy Harris returned she was outraged he'd ruined her desk.

I think the suspicions about Lucy Harris have been told and retold so often, we've pretty much declared her guilty without sure evidence to prove it.

Now, why did she turn against the work? I don't know. She was excited about it originally and wanted to help with the publication and offered help with finances and suggested things they should do--seemed she wanted to run the show. I suspect the Smiths were wary of her involvement because she was so forceful and wanted to take control and they were wary of having her involved, maybe her motives were not pure. At least, that's what I think would have made them hesitate in accepting her offers of help and unfortunately, she was probably angry at what she saw as their rejection of her and jealous that Martin Harris was being allowed into the inner circle. She turned bitter.

Plenty of people who've lost their faith end up questioning or denying the spiritual experiences they've had. I suspect Lucy was no different.

I don't know if she took it, but she could have been unwittingly part of it dissappearing. She thought herself equal to man, and when Joseph Smith turned down her offer of financially helping in the publishing really turned her off.

[Cold Steel]

I suppose she could also have invented the story to convince her husband to trust her. No one really knows what she experienced other than her and the Lord. When Harris wanted to show her the 116 pages of manuscript, the Lord said NO twice. Then, on the third time, Joseph was finally given his own way. The manuscript was supposed to have been locked away, but there was no evidence of a break in. Someone might have picked the lock, but one can see that Mrs. Harris might be considered a prime suspect. Her subsequent actions showed that if she did receive a manifestation from On High, that it didn't really make a lasting impression. In 1833, she gave a statement in which she claimed "I do it free from prejudice realizing that I must give an account at the bar of God for what I say."

She goes on to make numerous charges of Harris' abuse. "He is naturally quick in his temper and in his mad-fits frequently abuses all who may dare to oppose him in his wishes. However strange it may seem, I have been a great sufferer by his unreasonable conduct. At different times while I lived with him, he has whipped, kicked, and turned me out of the house." Of course, we have only her word for this and only one side of the story. I'm sure Lucy probably thought Martin's support of Joseph Smith was "unreasonable conduct" and we know she was quite capable of spirited resistance. One wonders how much abuse Harris suffered from his wife, who said "because I would not give credit to the report he made about the gold plates, he became more austere towards me." This might be all the motive she needed for a sudden conversion. In her later statement, she reports: "The man has now become rather an object of pity; he has spent most of his property, and lost the confidence of his former friends. If he had labored as hard on his farm as he has to make Mormons, he might now be one of the wealthiest farmers in the country. He now spends his time in traveling through the country spreading the delusion of Mormonism, and has no regard whatever for his family."

Martin, on the other hand, seems to have been waiting for something, or someone, like Smith and the Restoration to come along. As early as 1818, he said, "I was inspired of the Lord and taught of the Spirit that I should not join any Church." In this one regard, he seems to have had a great deal in common with other early church converts.

Mrs. Harris, for whatever it's worth, seems to have been angered by Martin's insistence that the Book of Mormon was what it purported to be. "Whether the Mormon religion be true or false, I leave the world to judge, for its effects upon Martin Harris have been to make him more cross, turbulent and abusive to me. ... I told him he had better leave the company of the Smiths, as their religion was false." So while the world must judge whether Mormonism is true or false, it was clear that she'd already made up her mind. She also charged that he was just in the deal to make money.

Even in early Christianity, the gospel was divisive, as Jesus himself noted, and capable of dividing families. Based on Mrs. Harris' statement, I suppose we can presume she had no spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon. I'm particularly amused by her deadpan: "However strange it may seem, I have been a great sufferer by his unreasonable conduct."

Yes, indeed, the poor creature could have been the wealthy wife of a prosperous farmer, who instead frittered it all away on something stupid and unreasonable as the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I care not what others may say, I firmly believe the Lord will somehow make it up to her.

.

[Sevenbak]

If Lucy Mack Smith's descriptions of her and the events surrounding the Harris' marriage are accurate, then it would appear she was a very prideful woman who thought herself better than her husband and, I get the impression, most people around her. She seemed to want to control things to a great extent.

Both her husband and the Smiths refused to give her satisfaction in this area. With that type of personality (assuming LMS is accurate again), it is not surprising her reaction is one of anger and destructiveness.

OTOH, if LMS has misinterpreted Mrs. Harris' personality, the actions of the Smiths and her husband could have deeply wounded her, leaving her feeling isolated and unwanted. Her actions could then be interpreted a variety of ways, one being providing reassurance in a way that she felt she could trust since after the way she had been treated, she had lost faith in those relationships or perhaps to get attention from those she felt were ignoring her or even one of resentment and a desire to cause pain as they had caused her pain.

I do not believe, considering Lucy is telling this memory late in her life and unfortunately memory is not a static element of thought but is constantly morphing as we access our memories, that we know enough of the woman to draw any real conclusion beyond that it was a shame her husband and her could not resolve the issues of their relationship and that Mrs. Harris, for whatever reason, did not find the peace in the gospel as say LMS had even if life itself was anything but.....

I agree that the telling happened later in life, but if Lucy did indeed see the plates in vision, as the Lords offering to help that family come to peace with the financial interest in publishing the BOM, the she squandered that experience away to the natural man (in this case woman) and became an enemy of truth. As has been mentioned, just as Laman and Lemuel did.

[Sevenbak]

Do we know for certain that Lucy Harris was responsible for taking the manuscript? Did she admit it? Did someone prove she took it? I don't think we know exactly what happened to the manuscript. We know that some men were planning to use it to set a trap for Joseph, but I don't think we know who they were.

From reading the story of the loss of the manuscript, it sounded like Lucy Harris locked it in her desk for safekeeping and she and Martin Harris went to visit relatives. Harris had shown the manuscript to others so there were people who knew he had it--probably even knew where it was being stored and possibly where the key was. He returned early without his wife and when a friend came to visit, he wanted to show the manuscript--he couldn't find the key so he damaged the desk lock to get it open and found the manuscript missing. When Lucy Harris returned she was outraged he'd ruined her desk.

I think the suspicions about Lucy Harris have been told and retold so often, we've pretty much declared her guilty without sure evidence to prove it.

Now, why did she turn against the work? I don't know. She was excited about it originally and wanted to help with the publication and offered help with finances and suggested things they should do--seemed she wanted to run the show. I suspect the Smiths were wary of her involvement because she was so forceful and wanted to take control and they were wary of having her involved, maybe her motives were not pure. At least, that's what I think would have made them hesitate in accepting her offers of help and unfortunately, she was probably angry at what she saw as their rejection of her and jealous that Martin Harris was being allowed into the inner circle. She turned bitter.

Plenty of people who've lost their faith end up questioning or denying the spiritual experiences they've had. I suspect Lucy was no different.

I don't know the answer to that, other than what Martin said.

Martin himself was called a "wicked man" by the Lord, prior to his repentance and witnessing of the BOM. Some day we'll know I suppose.

[Sevenbak]

I suppose she could also have invented the story to convince her husband to trust her. No one really knows what she experienced other than her and the Lord. When Harris wanted to show her the 116 pages of manuscript, the Lord said NO twice. Then, on the third time, Joseph was finally given his own way. The manuscript was supposed to have been locked away, but there was no evidence of a break in. Someone might have picked the lock, but one can see that Mrs. Harris might be considered a prime suspect. Her subsequent actions showed that if she did receive a manifestation from On High, that it didn't really make a lasting impression. In 1833, she gave a statement in which she claimed "I do it free from prejudice realizing that I must give an account at the bar of God for what I say."

She goes on to make numerous charges of Harris' abuse. "He is naturally quick in his temper and in his mad-fits frequently abuses all who may dare to oppose him in his wishes. However strange it may seem, I have been a great sufferer by his unreasonable conduct. At different times while I lived with him, he has whipped, kicked, and turned me out of the house." Of course, we have only her word for this and only one side of the story. I'm sure Lucy probably thought Martin's support of Joseph Smith was "unreasonable conduct" and we know she was quite capable of spirited resistance. One wonders how much abuse Harris suffered from his wife, who said "because I would not give credit to the report he made about the gold plates, he became more austere towards me." This might be all the motive she needed for a sudden conversion. In her later statement, she reports: "The man has now become rather an object of pity; he has spent most of his property, and lost the confidence of his former friends. If he had labored as hard on his farm as he has to make Mormons, he might now be one of the wealthiest farmers in the country. He now spends his time in traveling through the country spreading the delusion of Mormonism, and has no regard whatever for his family."

Martin, on the other hand, seems to have been waiting for something, or someone, like Smith and the Restoration to come along. As early as 1818, he said, "I was inspired of the Lord and taught of the Spirit that I should not join any Church." In this one regard, he seems to have had a great deal in common with other early church converts.

Mrs. Harris, for whatever it's worth, seems to have been angered by Martin's insistence that the Book of Mormon was what it purported to be. "Whether the Mormon religion be true or false, I leave the world to judge, for its effects upon Martin Harris have been to make him more cross, turbulent and abusive to me. ... I told him he had better leave the company of the Smiths, as their religion was false." So while the world must judge whether Mormonism is true or false, it was clear that she'd already made up her mind. She also charged that he was just in the deal to make money.

Even in early Christianity, the gospel was divisive, as Jesus himself noted, and capable of dividing families. Based on Mrs. Harris' statement, I suppose we can presume she had no spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon. I'm particularly amused by her deadpan: "However strange it may seem, I have been a great sufferer by his unreasonable conduct."

Yes, indeed, the poor creature could have been the wealthy wife of a prosperous farmer, who instead frittered it all away on something stupid and unreasonable as the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I care not what others may say, I firmly believe the Lord will somehow make it up to her.

.

Interesting stuff!! Thanks.

I wonder if the 116 pages, which I speculate were altered, waiting for Joseph to translate same again, are even still in existence in someone's attic somewhere?

[Calm]

f Lucy did indeed see the plates in vision, as the Lords offering to help that family come to peace with the financial interest in publishing the BOM, the she squandered that experience away to the natural man (in this case woman) and became an enemy of truth.

I agree with that. She would not be the first (though one of the earliest ones) nor the last in JS's life who started out as supportive, but turned away when circumstances weren't as they thought they should be. But then that is what we do in life, decide what is most important to us including how much control of our lives we are willing to put in others' hands, including the Lord.

[Calm]

in his mad-fits frequently abuses all who may dare to oppose him in his wishes. However strange it may seem, I have been a great sufferer by his unreasonable conduct.

This seems somewhat contradictory. If he frequently abused others, would this not be well known and if well known, why would it seem strange? Yet she starts out her accusation of abuse with 'it may seem strange' which sounds like to me that this is contrary to Martin's treatment of everyone else.

Are her comments confirmed by anyone else? It would be especially interesting if there were LDS members who claimed to have experienced abuse from MH.

[Sevenbak]

This seems somewhat contradictory. If he frequently abused others, would this not be well known and if well known, why would it seem strange? Yet she starts out her accusation of abuse with 'it may seem strange' which sounds like to me that this is contrary to Martin's treatment of everyone else.

Are her comments confirmed by anyone else? It would be especially interesting if there were LDS members who claimed to have experienced abuse from MH.

I don't know. I'd be tempted to wallop her if she was my wife and had just stolen or lost the manuscript, after I had plead with, and promised the prophet of the Lord I would keep it safe.

Tempted mind you... Count to 10...