The stone box in Cumorah that housed the gold plates

[cinepro]

The sword was not in the box.

My thinking was apparently influenced by this FARMS article:

In other accounts and interviews of the event, some stated that the sword of Laban appeared on a table.[78] Even though many accounts (Joseph Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, etc.) didn't mention the sword in connection with the plates, it was likely among the relics. Like the testimony of the three witnesses found in the Documentary History of the Church, the sword was there but not mentioned. They saw the sword of Laban, and it was an additional witness of the divine call of Joseph Smith.[71]

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Methinks the man doeth protest too much.

First, It was NOT a diatribe. A diatribe is synonymous with a rant. I posted a reasoned discussion.

Second, the reasoned discussion was based on fact, not speculation

Third, the statement was based on the actual words of Oliver Cowdery.

Fourth, the so-called Three witnesses are not solid witnesses. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church. Cowdery did come back, but Wittmer never did

You do realise that none of them denied what they saw or their testimonies of the BoM? Does that not matter?

Have you ever read this, from Joseph Smith History?

Please pay attention to what I made bold. By the nature and definition of the word, "vision" Cowdrey never actually saw the plates, not did he touch them. Neither did any of the others touch the plates.

Yet in this "vision" the witness stated that they hefted the plates? Kinda hard to do that if you are high on PCP?

How could they heft the plates if it was just all in thier mind as you are implying such?

[John T]

Yet in this "vision" the witness stated that they hefted the plates? Kinda hard to do that if you are high on PCP?

How could they heft the plates if it was just all in thier mind as you are implying such?

SHAME ON YOU!!!

When you are able to have a civil discussion, without SLANDERING me by outright LYING that I am a PCP addict, I may accept your apology, and condescend to answering legitimate questions.

Diidn't your mother...(never mind)

Until then consider yourself on ignore

[Nemesis]

Yet in this "vision" the witness stated that they hefted the plates? Kinda hard to do that if you are high on PCP?

How could they heft the plates if it was just all in thier mind as you are implying such?

Mola we do not allow this. Don't do it again.

SHAME ON YOU!!!

When you are able to have a civil discussion, without SLANDERING me by outright LYING that I am a PCP addict, I may accept your apology, and condescend to answering legitimate questions.

You already reported it. Next wait till we come in and do something. Retaliation does nothing for your case.

Nemesis

Both of you are out of this thread.

[Joseph Antley]

...I don't think Mola was implying that John T uses drugs. I think he was addressing the occasional assertion that the Three Witnesses' vision of the plates was drug-induced. I don't see the problem.

[Nemesis]

...I don't think Mola was implying that John T uses drugs. I think he was addressing the occasional assertion that the Three Witnesses' vision of the plates was drug-induced. I don't see the problem.

You are correct, not only did I misread his post I also didn't double check context. Mola will be in a second to clarify his position.

Nemesis

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

...I don't think Mola was implying that John T uses drugs. I think he was addressing the occasional assertion that the Three Witnesses' vision of the plates was drug-induced. I don't see the problem.

This is precisely what I was trying to get at. Let me fix my comments and see if we can start over on this one.

Yet in this "vision" the witness stated that they hefted the plates? Kinda hard to do that if the witness are high on PCP?

How could they heft the plates if it was just all in thier mind as you are implying such?

Edit comments. As you can see by this I was not talking about John T but the witnesses.

John I am sorry if you felt I was talking about you.

The main point is: how can one ignore that they hefted plates? This is not just a "vision" were they just thought they saw something. They really did see it. They claimed that they saw them with their "spritual eyes". Any way I see that this a good evidence for a real divine vision.

[Sevenbak]

Methinks the man doeth protest too much.

First, It was NOT a diatribe. A diatribe is synonymous with a rant. I posted a reasoned discussion.

Second, the reasoned discussion was based on fact, not speculation

Third, the statement was based on the actual words of Oliver Cowdery.

Fourth, the so-called Three witnesses are not solid witnesses. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church. Cowdery did come back, but Wittmer never did

Have you ever read this, from Joseph Smith History?

Please pay attention to what I made bold. By the nature and definition of the word, "vision" Cowdrey never actually saw the plates, not did he touch them. Neither did any of the others touch the plates.

That is why I stated in reply to the OP.

A double minded man is not reliable in any of the things he says, and I am surprised that you place so much emphasis on such problematic men, such as Cowdery, and his relatives, as the other two Witnesses.

Please notice that I was addressing the narrow issue of the paper mentioned in the OP, and nothing else. You see, if the man is in grad school, and he presented a witness as unreliable as Cowdery and Wittmer as a primary source references, then the person would not get a good grade. That was my concern, and for you to expand this thread beyond that, is to go beyond the scope of the OP.

If you want to do that issue, you may want to start another thread.

Actually, it was exactly a diatribe, as well as a rant. And it certainly wasn't based on fact.

Of course it was a vision, it was an angel that showed them the plates. It was also a physical experience. There's multiple testimonies attest to that.

This is wisdom in God. Not only did he allow a normal experience with the 8 witnesses, handling the plates, describing the ancient etched characters, with dark stain in the grooves of the etchings against the gold of the plates, etc, but also a heavenly angelic experience with the 3 witnesses. All of which contained physical experiences and testimony, documented from multiple sources.

The 3 was certainly a spiritual experience and a vision from the heavens. That doesn't take one iota away from the experience, it only adds multiple layers of truth.

[Pappy Fiddle]

My thinking was apparently influenced by this FARMS article:

I think this is talking about when the Three Witnesses saw the plates, not when the plates were in the stone box. The plates were in the box. Then Joseph took them out. Over the next 2.5 years he translated them. Then the Three Witnesses were shown them, on a table with some other artifacts.

I don't have an infinite library, so I reason from this that probably others don't have an infinite library also. Therefore I contribute the little I have. From a sermon by Brigham Young on 1877 June 17, at Farmington Utah (JD 19:36) Paragraph divisions by myself. Underlining shows the relevant words:

"I could relate many very singular circumstances. I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country.

"I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, but he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take. I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family.

"Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day.

They laid the plates on a table

; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.

"The first time they went there

the sword of Laban hung upon the wall

; but when they went again

it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates

; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ."

"I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

"Now, you may think I am unwise in publicly telling these things, thinking perhaps I should preserve them in my own breast; but such is not my mind. I would like the people called Latter-day Saints to understand some little things with regard to the workings and dealings of the Lord with his people here upon the earth. I could relate to you a great many more, all of which are familiar to many of our brethren and sisters."

Note that Brigham Young was not an eyewitness but claims to have heard it from Oliver Cowdery, or from someone, he wasn't perfectly unambiguous as to his source. Also, he died soon after this and was not in the greatest of health, if I understand correctly.

This quote should be interesting to those investigating the Two Cumorahs question. It says that large quantities of plates were stacked in a cave in the hill Cumorah. It doesn't say whether the stone box was on the hill Cumorah, or if that was a different hill. It does say that the hill Cumorah and its cave was somewhere within traveling distance for Joseph and Oliver around June 1829, when the translation was finished and Joseph was done with the plates. It seems to disagree with Joseph's statement that when he was finished with the plates, the Angel called for them and Joseph gave them to him (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:59 - 60.)

At any rate, it describes the sword being located in a cave, not in the stone box.

Pappy

Yes I really do fiddle

[MormonMason]

I think we can safely assume that if the box were removed, there would be some part of the hill cumorah with a gaping hole left in the place of a box. Remember, the best descriptions were that the "box" was not a single unit, but stones "cemented" in place forming a box. To dig them up would have required a sizeable excavation. How big does a cemented box need to be to securely hold a three or four foot long sword, plates and other artifacts, including a breastplate (how big are breasplates?)

Really, it was more of a jest than a serious response. The humor being in the asking of what happened to a hole in the earth. It seemed kind of funny when it first came to me...but maybe it wasn't?

With the box broken up and removed, and with the cover stone not in place, erosion would have removed most of the hole and leveled it out with the surrounding terrain. I recall reading an eyewitness account that stated that the hole was still there years after the event.

Unfortunately, I do not recall the source but I do recall it was an anti-mormon source.

[Doug the Hutt]

Imagine a local state park near your town where someone claims to have found a gold nugget near a flagpole at the top of a hill.

How long before you think the top of the hill and the flagpole are torn to pieces, uprooted, etc?

With that in mind, is it really realistic to think that there would be a nice undisturbed stone box after almost 200 years? After 20 years? After 1 year?

I didn't think so...

IF your assertion that oodles of people tore up the hill is correct THEN there should be evidence of it being torn up.

Has anyone actually been to the Hill Cumorah? Are there oodles of holes and pits from the alleged ransaking of the hill?

And with regards to the mystical cave full of records, a table and an unsheathed sword -- have ground-penetrating radar ever revealed any of these? (are we to think the cave slipped down into the earth like other anecdotal treasures were said to have done?)

[Sevenbak]

With the box broken up and removed, and with the cover stone not in place, erosion would have removed most of the hole and leveled it out with the surrounding terrain. I recall reading an eyewitness account that stated that the hole was still there years after the event.

Unfortunately, I do not recall the source but I do recall it was an anti-mormon source.

I would love to read that source material if you can find it.

[MormonMason]

I would love to read that source material if you can find it.

I'd love to read it again, too! I know it was an anti-mormon source from the period but I do not recall the title or author for some odd reason. Oncoming senility, perhaps. I'll keep trying to remember...

[Joseph Antley]

IF your assertion that oodles of people tore up the hill is correct THEN there should be evidence of it being torn up.

Has anyone actually been to the Hill Cumorah? Are there oodles of holes and pits from the alleged ransaking of the hill?

And with regards to the mystical cave full of records, a table and an unsheathed sword -- have ground-penetrating radar ever revealed any of these? (are we to think the cave slipped down into the earth like other anecdotal treasures were said to have done?)

It's almost certain that other treasure-diggers did a lot of digging on the hill, possibly even before Joseph retrieved the plates. Some contemporary accounts acknowledged it was a popular treasure-digging location.

And besides Cumorah, in the entire region there were hundreds and hundreds of pits left by treasure-seekers, many visible from the sides of the roads. I haven't been to western New York, but I would guess that very few if any of these two-hundred-year-old holes are visible today.