The stone box in Cumorah that housed the gold plates

[Hashbaz]

Here's the relevant points, bolded and underlined. I'm curious if there are any other accounts of these 3 pillars of cement inside the box upon which the plates rested?

I had never heard about this! From a Mesoamericanist's perspective this is absolutely fascinating. One of the fundamental religious beliefs in Mesoamerica, spanning from Formative period Olmec all the way the Postclassic and even into modern times, is the importance of the three hearthstones of creation. It is recognized by Mesoamericans in many forms; in the belt of Orion, the volcanoes surrounding Lake Atitlan, even hearths that are used in the homes of traditional Maya living today have a comal (cooking surface) placed on three stones. Ancient burials and offerings often had three stones placed in them, along with other precious objects. Interestingly, Karl Taube stated "the symbolism of the three-stone hearth constitutes an essential theme of temple ritual and imagery" (The Jade Hearth 1999:427; a fascinating yet somewhat technical article available online at http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/ClassicMaya/maya011.pdf). I wish I had time to look into this more. Maybe after the dissertation is done...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I had never heard about this! From a Mesoamericanist's perspective this is absolutely fascinating. One of the fundamental religious beliefs in Mesoamerica, spanning from Formative period Olmec all the way the Postclassic and even into modern times, is the importance of the three hearthstones of creation. It is recognized by Mesoamericans in many forms; in the belt of Orion, the volcanoes surrounding Lake Atitlan, even hearths that are used in the homes of traditional Maya living today have a comal (cooking surface) placed on three stones. Ancient burials and offerings often had three stones placed in them, along with other precious objects. Interestingly, Karl Taube stated "the symbolism of the three-stone hearth constitutes an essential theme of temple ritual and imagery" (The Jade Hearth 1999:427; a fascinating yet somewhat technical article available online at http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/ClassicMaya/maya011.pdf). I wish I had time to look into this more. Maybe after the dissertation is done...

Yeah! hurry and get that dissertation done. This looks good.

[Joseph Antley]

Why was Joseph constantly moving the plates? Why were so many undesirables constantly trying to steal them? What single "proof" would set these money diggers after him so much that he was forced to move to Pennsylvania in order to translate?

They didn't need proof. The treasure-seekers constantly searched for buried treasure without any shred of evidence but with full faith in their seer. When no treasure was found, they of course believed that the guardian spirit moved it or pulled it deeper into the earth.

The people who were trying to steal the plates had full faith in Joseph as a treasure-seek because they had worked with him before. They didn't need proof that they had found something; they knew that he had the ability, so if he said he did, then he did.

And why would anyone talk about it publicly or write it down? That would only make them look bad and make Joseph's claims legitimate. These types did not want that.

If "these types" had found an ancient cement-box in the hill, I'm inclined to think that they would have told people immediately -- treasure-seekers eagerly sought any sort of vindication for their midnight escapades.

I take Whitmer at his word about seeing it 3 times. He had nothing to gain, he was not associated with the Church.

I haven't said anything about Whitmer's account.

All the nay-sayer would have had do is search where Joseph said he had found them, atop Cumorah. Only 2 possibilities:

No box/chamber -" Joseph was making it up", and they leave him alone.

box/slabs/ancient cement - "Joseph has gold, let's take it."

Or the nay-sayer searches for it, doesn't find it, and the Mormons say that it was because it washed down the hill.

[Sevenbak]

Here's Whitmer's account:

The Chicago Times Interviews David Whitmer August 1875 S.L. Herald, 12 Aug 1875 in Ebbie

Richardson, "David Whitmer," pp.158

David Whitmer was married in Seneca County, New York, in 1830, and was for a number of years an elder

in the Church of Christ. Today he is the proprietor of a livery stable in Richmond, Missouri, owns some

real estate, has a handsome balance in the bank, is universally respected by all who know him, and

surrounded by children and grandchildren, is pleasantly gliding toward the gates of sunset, confident that

the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was also the God of Nephi, whose faithful disciple he has been and

is. He does not believe that all believing in the Book of Mormon or all adherents to any other faith will be

found among the elect, but that the truly good of every faith will be gathered in fulfillment of prophecy.

Neither does he believe that the Book of Mormon is the only record of the lost tribes hidden in the earth,

but on the contrary, that the caves hold other records that will not come forth till all is peace and the lion

shall eat straw with the lamb. Three times he has been at the Hill Cumorah and seen the casket that

contained the tablets and seerstone. Eventually the casket has been washed down to the foot of the hill, but

it was to be seen when he last visited the historic place.

[Sevenbak]

Joseph, the antis think you're about to defect to the dark side. I don't know if you want to take that joy away from them by responding or not, but thought you might want to be aware.

Cheers

______________________________________________________________________________

"Wow.

I the arguments that Joseph Antley presents in his thread are spot on with my arguments that I presented years ago.

It appears there is no real answer and seems to startle many who "never thought of that"..

Yeah, can't show the plates to outside unbiased unrelated parties.. why not show them the crappy old stone box??

Perhaps the stone box story developed over the years, kinda like the first vision stories?

I mean if I were Emma's dad and my daughter's scumbag treasure digging lazyass husband said he found magical gold plates in a stone box on the hill RIGHT NEXT TO HIS PARENTS HOUSE, I'd be for hiking up there and looking. The hill wasn't that large and at the time was nearly void of any trees, even though many mo'llustrations show the hill to be covered in large old growth trees... hell even the recent facade "The Restoration" depict the hill covered in large trees..

Anyways, the stone box is a stumbling box, err block for mopologists.

EDIT to add: After reading his thread and his blog, I am adding him to my list of defenders-about-to-defect.

This stone box thing is really bugging him..

Let me know when I get to play the Queen song!

And another one's gone, and another one's gone, another one bites the dust!"

mormon*****.***/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=272050

[cinepro]

Here's Whitmer's account:

The Chicago Times Interviews David Whitmer August 1875 S.L. Herald, 12 Aug 1875 in Ebbie

Richardson, "David Whitmer," pp.158

David Whitmer was married in Seneca County, New York, in 1830, and was for a number of years an elder

in the Church of Christ. Today he is the proprietor of a livery stable in Richmond, Missouri, owns some

real estate, has a handsome balance in the bank, is universally respected by all who know him, and

surrounded by children and grandchildren, is pleasantly gliding toward the gates of sunset, confident that

the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was also the God of Nephi, whose faithful disciple he has been and

is. He does not believe that all believing in the Book of Mormon or all adherents to any other faith will be

found among the elect, but that the truly good of every faith will be gathered in fulfillment of prophecy.

Neither does he believe that the Book of Mormon is the only record of the lost tribes hidden in the earth,

but on the contrary, that the caves hold other records that will not come forth till all is peace and the lion

shall eat straw with the lamb. Three times he has been at the Hill Cumorah and seen the casket that

contained the tablets and seerstone. Eventually the casket has been washed down to the foot of the hill, but

it was to be seen when he last visited the historic place.

Sounds like the stone box wasn't the only thing he saw...

[Joseph Antley]

Joseph, the antis think you're about to defect to the dark side. I don't know if you want to take that joy away from them by responding or not, but thought you might want to be aware.

I'm not especially concerned with what critics of the Church think of me. Latter-day Saints are allowed to ask critical questions in order to gain a solid understanding of historical events. But for all intensive purposes, let me say that I am not defecting to the dark side. My testimony in the Book of Mormon as a historical narrative is as unwavering as ever, and, as Elder Holland, recently stated, it came forth the way Joseph said it came forth.

EDIT to add: After reading his thread and his blog, I am adding him to my list of defenders-about-to-defect.

I've gotta admit, reading this did make me a little mint-faced. Making the list of a bitter critic, little ol' me?

[All-Seeing Eye]

I'm not especially concerned with what critics of the Church think of me. Latter-day Saints are allowed to ask critical questions in order to gain a solid understanding of historical events. But for all intensive purposes, let me say that I am not defecting to the dark side. My testimony in the Book of Mormon as a historical narrative is as unwavering as ever, and, as Elder Holland, recently stated, it came forth the way Joseph said it came forth.

I've gotta admit, reading this did make me a little mint-faced. Making the list of a bitter critic, little ol' me?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_saying_%27all_intents_and_purposes%27_or_%27all_intense_purposes%27

[Joseph Antley]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_saying_%27all_intents_and_purposes%27_or_%27all_intense_purposes%27

How embarrassing.

[kawikadave]

Imagine a local state park near your town where someone claims to have found a gold nugget near a flagpole at the top of a hill.

How long before you think the top of the hill and the flagpole are torn to pieces, uprooted, etc?

With that in mind, is it really realistic to think that there would be a nice undisturbed stone box after almost 200 years? After 20 years? After 1 year?

I didn't think so...

[John T]

In reading another link recently, I came across this that I have never noticed before. It's an account from Oliver Cowdery written to W. W. Phelps. The series of letters were later made into an historical pamphlet and published by the Church in the Latter Day Saints' Messenger and Advocate...

Here's the relevant points, bolded and underlined. I'm curious if there are any other accounts of these 3 pillars of cement inside the box upon which the plates rested?

http://en.wikisource...nts/Letter_VIII

What you seem to have here is what the lawyers call second hand information, or else fiction. That is, according to what JS wrote, he alone actually saw the actual site, and the contents therein. Therefore Cowdery was either repeating what was told to him or else fabricating the data in the letter. Thiis part of the letter supports my contention:

IN my last I said I should give, partially, a "description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited:" the first promise I have fulfilled, and must proceed to the latter:

The hill of which I have been speaking, at the time mentioned, presented a varied appearance: the north end rose suddenly from the plain, forming a promontory without timber, but covered with grass.

Since I live 25 miles away, I know the geography of the Finger Lakes area, and have passed by, and been on Cumorah, and at the Pageant. This area is ripped by glacier-caused moraines (smaller mountains having no extended mountain range.) Some, like Cumorah are discrete. Since the Erie Canal goes through the small town of Palmyra, and its construction predated Smith, and there was a hill rising suddenly from the plain, forming a promontory without timber, but covered with grass it would be noted by the townspeople, and reported in the town newspaper. No one else other than Cowdrey "saw that event". Therefore given the absence of accounts similar to Cowdrey's in any newspaper, small or large (Rochester is about 24 miles away) it is safe to assume that his account is fiction.

I believe that is most likely, given the checkered history of Cowdery as a supporter and then a denier of all things Mormon. That is because once a person acts traitorously to one cause, all other associations he has are logically and rightfully suspect. Such a position is congruent with the other things that he has done.

Therefore I believe that the author of the OP is trying to build a foundation on quicksand, because everything that Cowdery has done is open to serious inquiry.

[Joseph Antley]

I believe that is most likely, given the checkered history of Cowdery as a supporter and then a denier of all things Mormon. That is because once a person acts traitorously to one cause, all other associations he has are logically and rightfully suspect. Such a position is congruent with the other things that he has done.

CFR that Cowdery was "a denier of all things Mormon."

[John T]

CFR that Cowdery was "a denier of all things Mormon."

Perhaps that may have been "overkill".

I was referring to his excommunication. Here is a reference from wikipedia

1. By early 1838 Smith and Cowdery disagreed on three significant issues. First, Cowdery competed with Smith for leadership of the new church and "disagreed with the Prophet's economic and political program and sought a personal financial independence [from the] Zion society that Joseph Smith envisioned."^[21]David and John Whitmer. There Smith and Rigdon took charge of the Missouri church and initiated policies that Cowdery and the Whitmers believed violated separation of church and state. Finally, in January 1838, Cowdery wrote his brother Warren that he and Joseph Smith had "had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself." Alger, a teenage maid living with the Smiths, may have been Joseph Smith's first plural wife, a practice that Cowdery opposed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery

What I was getting to that as the Second Elder of the church, "translator of the plates" and that he "saw the plates IN A VISION" he was very influential, yet he had been excommunicated for denying things, as were posted on wiki

Clear?

[Vindicator]

You're assuming that Joseph left the box open and uncovered and that other treasure-seekers were able to find, neither of which I have seen evidence for.

Are we literally to believe that this was a Square, symmetrical box with four sides, built by human hands or perhaps a hole dug in the earth lined with "stones" one upon the other that would crumble into the hole or from degradable conditions?

[Sevenbak]

Imagine a local state park near your town where someone claims to have found a gold nugget near a flagpole at the top of a hill.

How long before you think the top of the hill and the flagpole are torn to pieces, uprooted, etc?

With that in mind, is it really realistic to think that there would be a nice undisturbed stone box after almost 200 years? After 20 years? After 1 year?

I didn't think so...

That was my point as well. It's no wonder remains were seen at the bottom of the hill.

[Sevenbak]

What you seem to have here is what the lawyers call second hand information, or else fiction. ...

...Therefore I believe that the author of the OP is trying to build a foundation on quicksand, because everything that Cowdery has done is open to serious inquiry.

Your diatribe is without merit. Oliver was a firsthand witness of the plates. And like David Whitmer, who also saw the plates, and said he saw the stone box 3 times prior to it's destruction, there is no reason to believe Oliver's account of the box here is entirely second hand.

And you do know that Oliver rejoined the Church later in life, and testified of the truthfulness of his witness to the plates and the angel throughout his whole life, don't you?

Edited to add: And thinking that because you live 25 miles from Cumorah makes your expectations any more relevant that anyone else's experience with the hill gives me a chuckle. I've been to Cumorah twice. I have other feelings and thoughts about the hill than you're experience reveals. So did the players that lived around it when the Restoration happened.

And lest anyone think that someone falling away (and coming back) makes the underlying gospel any less true, may I remind you of the tragedy that is Judas Iscariot.

[cinepro]

That was my point as well. It's no wonder remains were seen at the bottom of the hill.

Again, I think it's a huge stretch to claim that the remains were seen at the bottom of the hill were once part of the box.

All we have are statements from people who saw some rocks at the bottom of the hill, and they assumed those rocks had been part of the box. That's pretty good evidence that there were some rocks at the bottom of the hill. Not so solid evidence that those rocks were used by Moroni 1400 years earlier to construct a weather-tight hiding place for the Nephite artifacts.

It's the "Adam's Altar" conundrum. How in the world would anyone be able to distinguish a pile of post-wash, anciently used rocks from a pile or regular rocks?

[Sevenbak]

Again, I think it's a huge stretch to claim that the remains were seen at the bottom of the hill were once part of the box.

All we have are statements from people who saw some rocks at the bottom of the hill, and they assumed those rocks had been part of the box. That's pretty good evidence that there were some rocks at the bottom of the hill. Not so solid evidence that those rocks were used by Moroni 1400 years earlier to construct a weather-tight hiding place for the Nephite artifacts.

It's the "Adam's Altar" conundrum. How in the world would anyone be able to distinguish a pile of post-wash, anciently used rocks from a pile or regular rocks?

Unless those who was the "casket" or slab s cemented together at the top, recognized the parts laying at the bottom of the hill.

SInce there is so little we do know, all we have is the testimony of those that saw the box, and later the stones at the bottom.

[Tchild2]

Sevenbak - I think you need to take it even a layer deeper. What happened to the hole in the earth that the box once occupied?

Think about it. The box was rather large to hold the plates, the "spectacles", (U&M), the breastplate and the sword of Laban...A SWORD! Some accounts recount that the box was sunken into the earth by three or more feet. If the cemented box was removed and the stones "washed down the hill", what happened to the gaping hole left where the artifacts and stone box had once been? Did it just magically fill in?

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak - I think you need to take it even a layer deeper. What happened to the hole in the earth that the box once occupied?

Think about it. The box was rather large to hold the plates, the "spectacles", (U&M), the breastplate and the sword of Laban...A SWORD! Some accounts recount that the box was sunken into the earth by three or more feet. If the cemented box was removed and the stones "washed down the hill", what happened to the gaping hole left where the artifacts and stone box had once been? Did it just magically fill in?

You're making assumptions that we just don't know about. Was the area left after a single hole was dug, was the area scoured by money diggers looking for more plates or treasure, was any filled in to not draw attention to unwanted activity in the vacinity? etc, etc, etc. If Whitmer saw the box 3 times, do we know how long had passed when he then say the slabs down the hill? These are all unknowns.

All we know, that I'm aware of, is that Joseph saw the box, Whitmer saw the box, and Cowdery saw the box.

[Tchild2]

You're making assumptions that we just don't know about. Was the area left after a single hole was dug, was the area scoured by money diggers looking for more plates or treasure, was any filled in to not draw attention to unwanted activity in the vacinity? etc, etc, etc. If Whitmer saw the box 3 times, do we know how long had passed when he then say the slabs down the hill? These are all unknowns.

All we know, that I'm aware of, is that Joseph saw the box, Whitmer saw the box, and Cowdery saw the box.

I think we can safely assume that if the box were removed, there would be some part of the hill cumorah with a gaping hole left in the place of a box. Remember, the best descriptions were that the "box" was not a single unit, but stones "cemented" in place forming a box. To dig them up would have required a sizeable excavation. How big does a cemented box need to be to securely hold a three or four foot long sword, plates and other artifacts, including a breastplate (how big are breasplates?)

Really, it was more of a jest than a serious response. The humor being in the asking of what happened to a hole in the earth. It seemed kind of funny when it first came to me...but maybe it wasn't?

[Sevenbak]

I think we can safely assume that if the box were removed, there would be some part of the hill cumorah with a gaping hole left in the place of a box. Remember, the best descriptions were that the "box" was not a single unit, but stones "cemented" in place forming a box. To dig them up would have required a sizeable excavation. How big does a cemented box need to be to securely hold a three or four foot long sword, plates and other artifacts, including a breastplate (how big are breasplates?)

Really, it was more of a jest than a serious response. The humor being in the asking of what happened to a hole in the earth. It seemed kind of funny when it first came to me...but maybe it wasn't?

This is humorous. There is ample evidence for the dimensions of breastplate, that's homework you might actually enjoy. As for the dimensions of the sword, we don't know, but we do know that the hill was void of trees and plowed and farmed for decades. Do you know what the plow does to uneven terrain? I would suggest you study about the disappearance of thousands of Hopewell mounds and earthworks in the Midwest and Northeast and learn of effects of the plow on the land.

[Joseph Antley]

Sevenbak - I think you need to take it even a layer deeper. What happened to the hole in the earth that the box once occupied?

Think about it. The box was rather large to hold the plates, the "spectacles", (U&M), the breastplate and the sword of Laban...A SWORD! Some accounts recount that the box was sunken into the earth by three or more feet. If the cemented box was removed and the stones "washed down the hill", what happened to the gaping hole left where the artifacts and stone box had once been? Did it just magically fill in?

I imagine that the hole was still there. I remember reading at least one account that stated that Cumorah was a popular treasure-digging site and the hill was eventually riddled with pits.

[John T]

Your diatribe is without merit. Oliver was a firsthand witness of the plates. And like David Whitmer, who also saw the plates, and said he saw the stone box 3 times prior to it's destruction, there is no reason to believe Oliver's account of the box here is entirely second hand.

And you do know that Oliver rejoined the Church later in life, and testified of the truthfulness of his witness to the plates and the angel throughout his whole life, don't you?

Edited to add: And thinking that because you live 25 miles from Cumorah makes your expectations any more relevant that anyone else's experience with the hill gives me a chuckle. I've been to Cumorah twice. I have other feelings and thoughts about the hill than you're experience reveals. So did the players that lived around it when the Restoration happened.

And lest anyone think that someone falling away (and coming back) makes the underlying gospel any less true, may I remind you of the tragedy that is Judas Iscariot.

Methinks the man doeth protest too much.

First, It was NOT a diatribe. A diatribe is synonymous with a rant. I posted a reasoned discussion.

Second, the reasoned discussion was based on fact, not speculation

Third, the statement was based on the actual words of Oliver Cowdery.

Fourth, the so-called Three witnesses are not solid witnesses. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church. Cowdery did come back, but Wittmer never did

Have you ever read this, from Joseph Smith History?

"Lord appeared unto

[Pappy Fiddle]

A man known to be an eyewitness (he was there every year, removed the stone, and eventually took the plates): Stones laid crossways

Another man: Three blobs of smement (we don't know what he source of information was)

The sword was not in the box. Read carefully. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/52#51 The plates were a stack 6x6x8 inches approx. The breastplate was 16.7499 x 15.1362 inches. The glasses were small and they tucked into the pocket of the breastplate anyway. So you don't need all that huge of a box.

The hill we today call Cumorah is one of them dumpling things. No, that ain't it... Drumlins. It's a drumlin. Big pile of rocks pushed together by a glacier, if the geologists be correct. So if you should happen to see some stones at the bottom of the hill, it might be that they just be stones that slid down without ever bein' a part of any box.

Jest mayhap, Joseph took the plates out, and then rolled the top stone down the hill for fun. I would have. Then he kicked some dirt into, onto, and over the box and waltzed off.

Pappy