Faith alone

[Vance]

Waiting for Hoops.

Chirp . . . . chirp . . . . chirp.

[bluebell]

Waiting for Hoops.

Chirp . . . . chirp . . . . chirp.

He'll be back-it's not fair to expect people to respond on our time table. Some people actually have lives.

It's hard enough to have a good inter-faith discussion on this topic without egging each other on-let's try to keep our posts sincere, if nothing else.

[Vance]

He'll be back-it's not fair to expect people to respond on our time table. Some people actually have lives.

It's hard enough to have a good inter-faith discussion on this topic without egging each other on-let's try to keep our posts sincere, if nothing else.

True that!!!

This is just my way of bumping this thread back to page 1. That's all!!

[bluebell]

This is just my way of bumping this thread back to page 1. That's all!!

[Tanyan]

We are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone though Faith [pistis] alone, the key is to understand what "Faith" means - "pistis"as used in the anchient Biblical world.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

Waiting for Hoops.

Chirp . . . . chirp . . . . chirp.

Chirp . . . . chirp . . . . chirp.

[Vance]

We are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone though Faith [pistis] alone, the key is to understand what "Faith" means - "pistis"as used in the anchient Biblical world.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So what about being saved by baptism "alone"?

[Vance]

We are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone though Faith [pistis] alone, the key is to understand what "Faith" means - "pistis"as used in the anchient Biblical world.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name?s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What about being saved by enduring to the end "alone"?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name?s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What about being save by enduring to the end "alone"?

What about being saved by faith alone by confessions of the mouth alone.

Rom. 10: 9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

See confession is made unto salvation. It doesn't say it is by faith or belief.

Sounds like we are saved aby a whole lot of things that are alone.

We are saved by faith alone by baptism alone by confession alone by enduring to the end alone by grace alone.

[bluebell]

tanyan is defining the term 'faith' as pistis, which translated basically means 'fidelity', as others have already said.

In other words, that we are saved by fidelity to Christ alone, when one uses that definition. This translation assumes that obedience to Christ is a part of having faith in Him. Thus, it can be said that the bible is teaching that we are saved by belief, trust, and obedience to Christ alone when it proclaims that we are saved by "faith".

If i'm understanding tanyan's point correctly.

[Vance]

Or how about being saved by obedience to the Father "alone"?

Or being faithful to Paul "alone" through Peter "alone" by obedience to Christ "alone" with baptism "alone" with a grapefruit "alone"?

Or how about by the definition of alone "alone"?

[Paloma]

Hey Paloma!

Great, i'm all eyes.

I'm following you so far and agree.

Looking at the verses that follow Ephesians 2:8-9 are these words that I believe refer to what I've mentioned above:

O.k.

Here's where i get confused.

You said-"God justifies us because of Christ's perfect obedience and sacrifice, and not because of anything we've done or can do". And james teaches-"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only".

It appears that you and james are teaching contradictory things, doesn't it?

You know i love ya paloma, and i'm really grateful that you jumped in here, but i have to take issue where you say that james is not talking about how we are justified because in verse 24 he says straight out how justification occures.

I promise i'm not trying to be contrary-it just seems like a giant disconnect when someone says that james isn't talking about justification when it's right there in the chapter.

Does that make sense?

I'm in total agreement with you here.

Alright.

I agree that james is teaching what true faith looks like-to me it seems that he's saying that true faith HAS to have works or you will not be saved because you have dead faith.

And if that's what he's saying, then wouldn't that mean that teaching that works have no part in being saved isn't correct? Maybe i'm not understanding you though.

Hi again Bluebell! You know I love you too.

I haven't been ignoring you. But I've been away for 4 days. I travel several days each month and I've not yet got a laptop to take with me while away.

I can see how it looks like I'm contradicting James. Just going by the 'words', that's what it looks like. But then it also looks like Paul is contradicting James (or James, Paul) when Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we're saved by faith through grace and 'not by works, lest any man should boast".

I think that Paul would agree that the kind of faith that justifies us is a 'living faith' or 'active faith' or 'working faith' or 'faith that does good works'.

When I say that we're justified by Jesus' sacrifice for us (I should say that we need to appropriate His sacrifice by our faith in Him), and not by anything we do, I'm talking about our own efforts to win God's favour.

Here's where I think we LDS and non-LDS believers often talk past each other. I think there are non-LDS who just won't see that believing LDS are trusting Jesus, and not their own good works. Non-LDS tend to look at LDS requirements, even covenants, and say ... See! Their trust is in what they do! Likewise, I think LDS look at non-LDS believers and say ... See! They believe that faith alone saves them. They think they can act any old way and still be acceptable to God. Both of those have a hint of truth in them, I think, but they both really miss the mark, and miss the trusting heart of the respective LDS and non-LDS believer.

Back to Paul and James...

I think that Paul generally (and in Galatians in particular) was addressing a specific problem in Judaism where there was a tendency to think that external signs and observances saved them (e.g. circumcision, ritual cleansing, offerings, tithing and alms-giving, etc.) When these are trusted in, rather than trusting God, they become one's own efforts to obtain God's favour.

And I think that James was addressing the problem of taking 'grace' and Christian freedom too far, especially when he saw the abuses in the church that he talks about in his book. And so James emphasizes that faith must manifest itself in good works in order to prove that it's 'real' faith and not just lipservice without any internal change of heart.

I think that this kind of teaching ... that faith is internal and 'of the heart' and not just external ... runs through the whole Bible.

Jesus couldn't stand the self-righteousness of the Pharisees who 'looked good' and 'did everything right' in their own view of their religious practice. I'm thinking about Jesus' strong condemnation of the Pharisees and also of his parable about the two men in the Temple in Luke 18:

10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In the Old Testament, God made it clear that though he had set up ways to approach Him through sacrifices, he looked at the heart, and not the externals. In 1 Samuel 15:22, the prophet Samuel said to Saul: "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams".

In Isaiah 58:6, the real 'heart' meaning of fast is described:

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.

Bluebell, I think you'd be in complete agreement with the 'heart' of the Bible passages I've quoted. I'm not trying to say otherwise. But I'm trying to show that we non-LDS believers distinguish between self-justifying works (as Paul does in Ephesians) and 'true' good works that reflect a humble and trusting heart attitude.

Another Scripture in this vein that just popped into my head is Psalm 51:16-17.

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

I abhor the fact that we non-LDS and LDS try to score accusatory and dismissive points off each other by insisting that the other's position manifests a lack of good motivation (heart attitude) and true faith. And that's what tends to happen when LDS and non-LDS talk about faith vs. works. We dichotomize and polarize what shouldn't be!

Personally, I think God looks past our respective doctrinal beliefs and practices, at our hearts.

I wish we could do the same.

Bluebell, I hope I'm not coming on too strongly, but you can tell this is something I feel passionate about.

Love you, girl.

[cksalmon]

To say "faith alone" excludes all others, including "works".

To say "grace alone" excludes all others, including "faith".

So statements like "by grace alone through faith alone" are just gibberish. But like a lot of political speech of late, it sounds lofty.

Heavens knows what you might think of the notion in its historical context, Vance! It's even worse than you imagine. The Protestant sloganeers actually perpetuated five Solas: Sola scriptura, Sola fide, Sola gratia, Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria.

Some may be tempted to believe that the Protestant Reformers didn't merely string together a list of contradictory, gibberish phrases in order to make their theological convictions sound "lofty." They may suspect that perhaps the convictions underlying the Protestant Solas form a coherent, interwoven, and arguably biblical, defense of God's sovereign work of saving His people from their sins. Such folks may even, sadly, endeavor to become informed about what those gibbery Reformers thought they were up to in using such language.

(You and I know better, of course.)

cks

[Paloma]

... The Protestant sloganeers actually perpetuated five Solas: Sola scriptura, Sola fide, Sola gratia, Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria.

Some may be tempted to believe that the Protestant Reformers didn't merely string together a list of contradictory, gibberish phrases in order to make their theological convictions sound "lofty." They may suspect that perhaps the convictions underlying the Protestant Solas form a coherent, interwoven, and arguably biblical, defense of God's sovereign work of saving His people from their sins.

cks

Imagine!!!

(And can you imagine what would happen if defenders and detractors actually gave each other the benefit of the doubt and looked deeply into their respective positions! Too horrifying to contemplate. Where would the contention, not to mention the sense of 'rightness' and superiority be?)

[Vance]

Heavens knows what you might think of the notion in its historical context, Vance! It's even worse than you imagine. The Protestant sloganeers actually perpetuated five Solas: Sola scriptura, Sola fide, Sola gratia, Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria.

I hadn't heard of the "Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria" before. That is two more to add to the list.

Some may be tempted to believe that the Protestant Reformers didn't merely string together a list of contradictory, gibberish phrases in order to make their theological convictions sound "lofty."

Being tempted is a bad thing, right?

They may suspect that perhaps the convictions underlying the Protestant Solas form a coherent, interwoven, and arguably biblical, defense of God's sovereign work of saving His people IN their sins.

There, fixed it for you!

Such folks may even, sadly, endeavor to become informed about what those gibbery Reformers thought they were up to in using such language.

AND over look the obvious inconsistencies in such lofty statements.

[coolrok7]

Thanks Paloma for your explanation (post # 32), it was very well done! The pointing out of trying to find favor with God based on our own unrighteous works is what Paul was writing about/defending against in a lot of his letters as well as encouraging the doing of good works:

But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:13-17)

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4)

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, (Phillipians 3:eight)

This was also one of the major issues of the Protestant Reformation as I'm an Evangelical Missouri Synod Lutheran Christian. A major distinction we look at in Scripture is Law and Gospel. The law says what we are to do while Jesus came and did what we cannot do (live the Law of God perfectly).

Bruce R. McConkie had this to say concerning both the Trinity and Justification by faith emphasis of the Reformation (Christianity was not destroyed):

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

The last line as stated above is a common misperception/misrepresentation of the Protestant understanding of "salvation by grace" (this is not what Lutheran Christians teach concerning the subject of Justification and Sanctification). Note that "justified by faith alone" is in juxtaposition with "without the works of the law".

It certainly does not mean that we are not to do good works which are part of our Sanctification (being set apart for works of service), after our Justification before God which has nothing to do with our "works".

We don't object to the doing of good works as they are a fruit of faith and the state of being righteous before both God and man which is brought about by the result of Jesus living as a perfect man. Then we in turn, living a life which is directed by faith while trusting Him to save us which is both pleasing to God and profitable for all of us.

One way possibly to get past the confusion bluebell is to think of Justification on two levels (big "J" little "j"). One level is with God and the other is us as fellow human beings.

Sincerity of belief here I don't think is the issue at all (nobody raised this as an issue but I thought I would point this out as none of us would be here I think if we didn't care).

Both Paul and James use the Old Testament account of Abraham and his son Isaac to illustrate the doctrine known as Justification (not being guilty of sin before God; i.e. the state of being righteous).

When God told Abraham to offer Isaac as the sacrifice (the ram was provided in place of Isaac and was prophetic of Jesus) he was declared to be righteous based on his willingness to believe God's command even before he did anything. Paul was focusing on the belief of the heart (faith) while James was focusing on the act of doing what God commanded by raising the knife (works).

Paul uses this as an example to emphasize man's "Justification" before God (internal/God looks at the heart):

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. . . .What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, . . . (Romans 3:23-28; 4:1-5)

This is where Paul's statement comes into play:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

James's emphasis is on "justification" before our fellow man after we see the works, not just paying lip service to what we say we believe (external/people see the evidence of the internal change of the heart):

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:1-13)

James goes on to say that: (Paul says we're "saved by grace through faith", not by works):

What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2:14 ?24)

His point I believe was that if one claims to have faith then it should follow and proves (as far as faith goes as not all faith is in the "truth") that one has faith and is demonstrated in the works that are done (a fruit of faith). But works done before men are not what saves a person from eternal punishment; the shed blood of Jesus does- cleanses us from all sin.

The basic problem as I see it is that you (bluebell) and others here don't understand the "Solas" of the Reformation ("alone" does not mean by itself) which was a defense of Biblical teaching over and against the errors of the Pope in the selling of indulgences issue, a catalyst which in part, brought it about.

The real issue or the bigger problem between us here stems from the fact of Joseph Smith (as part of the "restorationist" movement) and his adding to the "Word of God" unnecessarily through his own writings as so-called "Scripture" such as "after all we can do" which was never part of the Ephesians 2:8-10 verse of Paul.

It is the problem of lying and deceptive spirits ever ready to deceive people as they've done all along since the temptation of Adam and Eve (which God allowed and doesn?t explain to our satisfaction):

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1-6)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

James?s emphasis is on ?justification? before our fellow man after we see the works, not just paying lip service to what we say we believe (external/people see the evidence of the internal change of the heart):

James goes on to say that we?re "saved by grace through faith":

James also said that faith being alone is dead. So how then could one be saved by faith alone if faith alone is dead with out works.

I am very greatful for the people on this board to try and make it fit. The point is that it doesn't. Works are not a product of salvation. Because with out works our faith is dead. Reasons stands then that we need faith and works to be saved.

[bluebell]

When I say that we're justified by Jesus' sacrifice for us (I should say that we need to appropriate His sacrifice by our faith in Him), and not by anything we do, I'm talking about our own efforts to win God's favour.

O.k.

Here's where I think we LDS and non-LDS believers often talk past each other. I think there are non-LDS who just won't see that believing LDS are trusting Jesus, and not their own good works. Non-LDS tend to look at LDS requirements, even covenants, and say ... See! Their trust is in what they do! Likewise, I think LDS look at non-LDS believers and say ... See! They believe that faith alone saves them. They think they can act any old way and still be acceptable to God. Both of those have a hint of truth in them, I think, but they both really miss the mark, and miss the trusting heart of the respective LDS and non-LDS believer.

I completely agree with you here (with the exception that i would say that some lds see non-LDS Christians the way you described, not all of us see you all you guys that way. )

I think that Paul generally (and in Galatians in particular) was addressing a specific problem in Judaism where there was a tendency to think that external signs and observances saved them (e.g. circumcision, ritual cleansing, offerings, tithing and alms-giving, etc.) When these are trusted in, rather than trusting God, they become one's own efforts to obtain God's favour.

Yes, i completely agree.

And I think that James was addressing the problem of taking 'grace' and Christian freedom too far, especially when he saw the abuses in the church that he talks about in his book. And so James emphasizes that faith must manifest itself in good works in order to prove that it's 'real' faith and not just lipservice without any internal change of heart.

completely agree again.

I think that this kind of teaching ... that faith is internal and 'of the heart' and not just external ... runs through the whole Bible.

Jesus couldn't stand the self-righteousness of the Pharisees who 'looked good' and 'did everything right' in their own view of their religious practice. I'm thinking about Jesus' strong condemnation of the Pharisees and also of his parable about the two men in the Temple in Luke 18:

In the Old Testament, God made it clear that though he had set up ways to approach Him through sacrifices, he looked at the heart, and not the externals.

Bluebell, I think you'd be in complete agreement with the 'heart' of the Bible passages I've quoted. I'm not trying to say otherwise. But I'm trying to show that we non-LDS believers distinguish between self-justifying works (as Paul does in Ephesians) and 'true' good works that reflect a humble and trusting heart attitude.

I hope you know paloma that many if not most LDS do realize this about non-LDS Christians. I've only met a handful of protestants who didn't agree with the things you've said in this post so i do realize that the rabid 'faith alone' crowd that my OP was specifically addressed to is quite small.

I hope i have never given any other impression of you guys but if i did i'm sorry.

I abhor the fact that we non-LDS and LDS try to score accusatory and dismissive points off each other by insisting that the other's position manifests a lack of good motivation (heart attitude) and true faith. And that's what tends to happen when LDS and non-LDS talk about faith vs. works. We dichotomize and polarize what shouldn't be!

Personally, I think God looks past our respective doctrinal beliefs and practices, at our hearts.

I wish we could do the same.

I know, wouldn't it be wonderful. HOpefully someday we'll all get there.

thanks for your great words paloma.

[bluebell]

The last line as stated above is a common misperception/misrepresentation of the Protestant understanding of "salvation by grace" (this is not what Lutheran Christians teach concerning the subject of Justification and Sanctification). Note that "justified by faith alone" is in juxtaposition with "without the works of the law".

It certainly does not mean that we are not to do good works which are part of our Sanctification (being set apart for works of service), after our Justification before God which has nothing to do with our "works".

We don't object to the doing of good works as they are a fruit of faith and the state of being righteous before both God and man which is brought about by the result of Jesus living as a perfect man. Then we in turn, living a life which is directed by faith while trusting Him to save us which is both pleasing to God and profitable for all of us.

One way possibly to get past the confusion bluebell is to think of Justification on two levels (big "J" little "j"). One level is with God and the other is us as fellow human beings.

Sincerity of belief here I don't think is the issue at all (nobody raised this as an issue but I thought I would point this out as none of us would be here I think if we didn't care).

Both Paul and James use the Old Testament account of Abraham and his son Isaac to illustrate the doctrine known as Justification (not being guilty of sin before God; i.e. the state of being righteous).

When God told Abraham to offer Isaac as the sacrifice (the ram was provided in place of Isaac and was prophetic of Jesus) he was declared to be righteous based on his willingness to believe God's command even before he did anything. Paul was focusing on the belief of the heart (faith) while James was focusing on the act of doing what God commanded by raising the knife (works).

Paul uses this as an example to emphasize man's "Justification" before God (internal/God looks at the heart):

This is where Paul's statement comes into play:

James's emphasis is on "justification" before our fellow man after we see the works, not just paying lip service to what we say we believe (external/people see the evidence of the internal change of the heart):

James goes on to say that: (Paul says we're "saved by grace through faith", not by works):

His point I believe was that if one claims to have faith then it should follow and proves (as far as faith goes as not all faith is in the "truth") that one has faith and is demonstrated in the works that are done (a fruit of faith). But works done before men are not what saves a person from eternal punishment; the shed blood of Jesus does- cleanses us from all sin.

Thank you for that great explanation.

I think i pretty much agree with everything that you said about salvation and the faith and works thing. (unless i missed something. I'm giving my self the option to come back and argue with you later if that is the case. )

The basic problem as I see it is that you (bluebell) and others here don't understand the "Solas" of the Reformation ("alone" does not mean by itself) which was a defense of Biblical teaching over and against the errors of the Pope in the selling of indulgences issue, a catalyst which in part, brought it about.

That's probably true.

I mean, alone doesn't mean by itself? Can you blame us for not understanding that?

The real issue or the bigger problem between us here stems from the fact of Joseph Smith (as part of the "restorationist" movement) and his adding to the "Word of God" unnecessarily through his own writings as so-called "Scripture" such as "after all we can do" which was never part of the Ephesians 2:8-10 verse of Paul.

Would it have been better if he had just called one of the books of the bible an 'epistle of straw' instead? I know it's evil to add to the bible but is taking away from it alright or was Luther also creating 'another gospel' with such practices?

I'm honestly asking.

It is the problem of lying and deceptive spirits ever ready to deceive people as they've done all along since the temptation of Adam and Eve (which God allowed and doesn?t explain to our satisfaction):

I agree.

[Tanyan]

tanyan is defining the term 'faith' as pistis, which translated basically means 'fidelity', as others have already said.

In other words, that we are saved by fidelity to Christ alone, when one uses that definition.??This translation assumes that obedience to Christ is a part of having faith in Him.??Thus, it can be said that the bible is teaching that we are saved by belief, trust, and obedience to Christ alone when it proclaims that we are saved by "faith".

If i'm understanding tanyan's point correctly.

Yes thank you for that explanation for me. Pistis is the ultimate access/activation/ alive making of Jesus Christs AWESOME Gift of Grace [Charis] on our behalf.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanayn - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

We must do works [ergon] born out of love for GOD and Jesus Christ by Faith [ pistis] to show that we want to be and stay saved. True Faith [pistis] and True Works [ ergon] born out of Faith in Christ Jesus work together as a synergy in the greek according to The LORD OF LIFE'S Brother James.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[coolrok7]

. . .I mean, alone doesn't mean by itself? Can you blame us for not understanding that?. . .

I?ve been trying to explain over the last several months. It?s not a matter of blame here. Understanding comes by seeking to know what is meant in the context of Biblical teaching of ?truth?.

The Solas are not ?alone?- Sola Fide (faith), Sola Gracia (grace), Sola Scriptura (Scripture). The first two are an integral part Ephesians 2:8-10 which are connected to ?salvation? and ?not by works. Ephesians is part of Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is the appeal to ?Scripture? as the ?Word of God? where doctrine comes from.

A sort of quick answer to the "epistle of straw" remark. Luthers context was his emphasis on the Gospel in light of the Law. There was not much Gospel in James which was the point according to him The Bible in a New Testament context still has the book of James in it (from a web page on the subject):

Epistle of Straw? Luther

"Saint John's gospel and St. Paul's epistles, especially that to the Romans, and St. Peter's first epistle are the true pit and marrow of all the books. They should justly be the first books, and every Christian should be advised to read them first and most, and by daily reading to make them as familiar to himself as his daily bread.

In them you do not find described many works and miracles of Christ; but you do find depicted in a masterly manner how faith in Christ overcomes sin, death, and hell, and gives life, righteousness, and salvation. This is the real nature of the Gospel ?

These books show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salutary for you to known even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to them, for it lacks this evangelical character." (W-DB 6, 10 Plass 988)

and yet, about the new testament itself, Luther says

The New Testament is only the gospel preached: "This is nothing else than the message by which the Spirit is offered to us and grace for the forgiveness of sins, purchased for us by Christ Crucified-and all entirely free, through the pure mercy of God the Father, who thus favors us unworthy creatures, who deserve damnation rather than anything else."

After the gospel preached is the exhortations, which are to "animate those who have already been justified" so that they might "Practice love in good works, and courageously to bear the cross and all other tribulations of this world" (W 18, 692 in Plass 987-988).

and yet, again, Luther quotes James

His comments on Prayer-do not ever give up on prayer, "Let us, therefore, pray boldly and confidently" supported by James 5:16. (Plass 1097)

"So the question is asked: How can justification take place without the works of the Law, and how can no justification take place by the works of the Law even though James clearly says: 'Faith without works is dead' (2:26) and 'By works a man is justified' (2:24), adducing the examples of Abraham and Rahab? And even Paul says (Gal 5:6): 'Faith (which) worketh by love' and above (Rom 2:13): 'The doers of the Law shall be justified"? Answer: the apostle distinguishes between the Law and faith, between the letter and grace, and so also between their works. He calls those works 'works of the Law' that are done without faith and grace, by the Law, which forces them to be done through fear or through the enticing promise of temporal advantages. But he calls these 'works of faith' which are done in the spirit of liberty, purely out of love to God. And these can be done only by those who are justified by faith. But the works of the Law contribute nothing toward this justification, nay, they greatly hinder it, because they will not let a man realize that he is unjust and in need of justification. ...

"There when the blessed James and the apostle say that man is justified by works, they are disputing the false conception of those who contended that a faith without works would be sufficient. However, the apostle does not say that faith is without its characteristic works-for then there would be no faith at all since 'activity reveals the nature of a thing' according to philosophers-but that it justifies without the works of the Law. Therefore justification does not require a living faith, which performs its works. (W 56, 248f in Plass 720-721).

Luther also uses James 1:14 to argue about sin that "the great enticement is within you, and you must first run and flee from yourself" (W 10 I, 1, in Plass 1302).

In James 2:26, Luther explains that before God, we are justified by faith alone, without works, but "Before the people and himself, he is justified through works, that is, he thereby becomes known and certain himself that he honestly believes and is pious" (W10 III, 287 f in Plass 1231).

James 4:7 "resist the devil" We should, in fact, be afraid of sin and temptation, but "we should not stay in terror; we should turn again to grace" (W-T 1, No. 407). (p 1349)

Also in response to temptation, Luther exhorts us to call upon God and pray (James 5:13)

(W-T 1, No. 956 in Plass 1350)

Ewald M. Plass, compiler, What Luther Says: An Anthology Three Volumes. (St. Louis MO: Concordia Publishing House, 1959).

W is the Weimar Edition of Luther's Works

W-Br is the Weimar Edition of Luther's Letters Briefe

W-DB is the Weimar Edition Deutsche Bibel

[Tanyan]

Remember that True "Faith" [pistis] is a Law that must be worked to access/activate/make alive Jesus Christs Grace [charis] to be effective in one's Temporal/spiritual salvation Journey/Quest. http://www.tgm.org/FaithIsALaw.html .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[coolrok7]

?Remember that True "Faith" [pistis] is a Law that must be worked to access/activate/make alive Jesus Christs Grace [charis] to be effective in one's Temporal/spiritual salvation Journey/Quest. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.tgm.org/FaithIsALaw.html ?.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Tanyan, the words "saved by grace through faith not by works" are Scripture in which true faith, a gift, produces the works and its not "after all we can do". I addressed it in my earlier post.

[Tanyan]

Tanyan, the words??"saved by grace through faith not by works" are Scripture in which true faith, a gift, produces the works and its not "after all we can do". I addressed it in my earlier post.

coolrok7 my Missouri Lutheran synod friend thank you for your comment. Saved by True Grace [charis] alone through True Faith [pistis] alone is True LDS Doctrine/ Teaching/ Thought /Practice. From my lights you do not have an complete understanding of charis and pistis, you are looking at them through Lutheran reformation eyes instead of Biblical 1st century eyes. Works for Paul were O.T Laws that were done away with Jesus Christs Awesome sacrifice for us. Yes it is a gift AMEN !, but it needs to be unwrapped and used in rightiousness to bless the lives of others to Glorify the Father and the Son throught the Holy Ghost. You also have not a clue as to what "all we can do" means in 2 Nephi 25:23 and even after it has been re-interpeted and Christianized by we LDS for our lives today. Try again.?

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.