Faith alone

[cksalmon]

I know this topic has been done to death-especially lately-but there is one thing that keeps being said by many non-LDS Christians that i want some clarification on. I'd like to stick specifically to this arguement since there are so many other threads right now where every other aspect of the issue is being discussed.

Basically, many non-LDS Christians keep telling me that salvation is through faith alone. They say, specifically, that LDS aren't saved because we do not believe that salvation is through faith alone.

My question is, isn't teaching that salvation comes through faith alone contradictory to what the bible says about it? The bible teaches that faith, being alone, is dead.

James 2:17-Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And as a part of that question i want to know, can dead faith save anyone?

I would really like all those who have used the 'salvation through faith alone' arguement against LDS to share their thoughts on this, because from my understanding, such a teaching is anti-biblical.

Thanks.

I would just note that, way back in 1520, Martin Luther very forcefully addressed the very issue you're now raising, in what some have called the Magna Carta of the Reformation: The Freedom of a Christian.

You could do worse than this edition, if you're interested.

cks

[Vance]

The problem I have with this "age of grace" gibberish is this concept.

What Jesus taught is preeminent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even to the teachings of Paul, when you think there is a conflict).

Deu 18:15 ? The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

. . .

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; HIM SHALL YE HEAR IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU.

23 And it shall come to pass, that EVERY SOUL, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE.

Sorry Hoops but the words of Jesus trump the words of Paul.

Where is Hoops?

Bump

[DLClark]

Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith and by works. Read this passage and notce where good works come into play. Verse 10 if you need help.

Eph 2:1-10

2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith and by works. Read this passage and notce where good works come into play. Verse 10 if you need help.

Eph 2:1-10

2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

I suggest you read this thread instead of rehash the same prooftext EV talking points.

James says that "faith alone is dead". No were else in the scriputres is "faith alone" used. It is only used to tell us that if alone it is dead.

Do you think that if you quote what you did above enough that some how James will go away?

[Zakuska]

Come now Mola.

James says Faith Alone is Dead and So does Paul right there in verse 10 Paul is speaking af Faith accompanied by works. Just as James is. They are in perfect Agreement...

On the other hand... todays Modern day Evangelical "Faith Alone" saves RAbanes type Christians. Disagree with both Paul and James.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Come now Mola.

James says Faith Alone is Dead and So does Paul right there in verse 10 Paul is speaking af Faith accompanied by works. Just as James is. They are in perfect Agreement...

On the other hand... todays Modern day Evangelical "Faith Alone" saves RAbanes type Christians. Disagree with both Paul and James.

Yes, yes.

[Vance]

Just bumping this one forward so Hoops can address post #43

And so I wait for hoops.

[Hoops22]

The problem I have with this "age of grace" gibberish is this concept.

What Jesus taught is preeminent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even to the teachings of Paul, when you think there is a conflict).

Are not Paul's preaching also the word of God? If so, then they deserve the same emminence. If not, why not? And how do you determine what is and what is not the word of God? Oh, I see, the prophet. Unfortunately, the verses you cite have nothing to do with the LDS "prophet".

As for me, there is no conflict. Both Paul and the gospels and the rest of the Bible are in perfect harmony. That which is for Israel remains so. It is you that has difficulty reconciling the Bible to itself, which is why you have to jettison that with which you disagree.

[Zakuska]

The Bible is in perfect harmony?

Surley you jest... because the Barber shop quartet is a little off key.

Who was it the Raised Jesus from the Dead?

John says it was Jesus himself...

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 10:17-18 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. (18) "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Paul says it was His father...

Acts 2

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 13

30 But God raised him from the dead:

1 Cor. 15: 15

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

[Hoops22]

The Bible is in perfect harmony?

Surley you jest... because the Barber shop quartet is a little off key.

Who was it the Raised Jesus from the Dead?

John says it was Jesus himself...

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 10:17-18 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. (18) "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Paul says it was His father...

Acts 2

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 13

30 But God raised him from the dead:

1 Cor. 15: 15

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

Aaaahhhh, the mormon default position. Bible bad, bom good.

Please, if you have any legitimate questions, ask away. But these are simply too sophomoric to consider.

[Hoops22]

It is you that has difficulty reconciling the Bible to itself, which is why you have to jettison that with which you disagree.

See above.

[AtticusFinch]

Faith Alone was a Martin Luther invention. It is made espacially for Sunday-Only Christians who want the easy way to Salvation. It allows them to do whatever they want. Jesus was asked "how do I obtain Eternal Life? Jesus did not say, "just have faith". Jesus said to "keep the commandments".

[AtticusFinch]

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). (Works)

"One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?' And Jesus replied 'If you would enter life, keep the commandments'" (Matt. 19:16-17). (Works)

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him" (John 14:21). (Works)

"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" (Rom. 2:2-. (Works)

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Gal. 5:4-6). (Works)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10). (Works and Faith)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13). (Salvation not a given)

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, `Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, `You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:14-24). (Works AND Faith)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)

1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

[AtticusFinch]

So, as we see, faith alone is not enough. Works alone is not enough. One cannot work their way to heaven. But one must have faith AND works. One Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is just works.

You need both.

[Balzer]

So, as we see, faith alone is not enough. Works alone is not enough. One cannot work their way to heaven. But one must have faith AND works. One Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is just works.

You need both.

I have never thought LDS and non-LDS were all that far apart on this subject. LDS say, based on the comment in James, and in keeping with the BOM and other LDS teaching, that one must have faith and works. Put another way, if you have faith, but do not perform good works, you will not be saved. Non-LDS take the position that works are the product of faith and salvation. Put another way, once you have come to faith and thereby gain salvation, works are the unavoidable product of that faith and salvation. You really can't have one without getting the other. So, don't both sides essentially believe that works are an essential part of the equation? (Btw, the only people I have heard say that non-LDS Christians who have faith can "do whatever they want" and still be saved are Mormons. I have never seen or heard a non-LDS person say that. Then again, I don't get out much)

Whether or not you "need" both, in either LDS or non-LDS context, you get both.

I think the biggest problem non-LDS have with this stuff is not that LDS think that works are required for salvation, because when you think about it, works is works right? How could anyone have a problem with a person who is out there performing good works? I think the real problem is the apparent LDS belief that they will indeed be able to perform sufficient works to warrant and deserve salvation, not to mention exhaltation. Non-LDS will simply never understand that. Maybe if someone could reconcile the LDS understanding of the biblical principle that "faith without works is dead" stuff with the non-LDS understanding of the principle that "our works are as dirty rags" stuff?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[MeriJessop]

I know this topic has been done to death-especially lately-but there is one thing that keeps being said by many non-LDS Christians that i want some clarification on. I'd like to stick specifically to this arguement since there are so many other threads right now where every other aspect of the issue is being discussed.

Basically, many non-LDS Christians keep telling me that salvation is through faith alone. They say, specifically, that LDS aren't saved because we do not believe that salvation is through faith alone.

My question is, isn't teaching that salvation comes through faith alone contradictory to what the bible says about it? The bible teaches that faith, being alone, is dead.

James 2:17-Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And as a part of that question i want to know, can dead faith save anyone?

I would really like all those who have used the 'salvation through faith alone' arguement against LDS to share their thoughts on this, because from my understanding, such a teaching is anti-biblical.

Thanks.

dnt forget Jas 2:24 - judged by faith AND works

[Zakuska]

I have never thought LDS and non-LDS were all that far apart on this subject. LDS say, based on the comment in James, and in keeping with the BOM and other LDS teaching, that one must have faith and works. Put another way, if you have faith, but do not perform good works, you will not be saved. Non-LDS take the position that works are the product of faith and salvation. Put another way, once you have come to faith and thereby gain salvation, works are the unavoidable product of that faith and salvation. You really can't have one without getting the other. So, don't both sides essentially believe that works are an essential part of the equation? (Btw, the only people I have heard say that non-LDS Christians who have faith can "do whatever they want" and still be saved are Mormons. I have never seen or heard a non-LDS person say that. Then again, I don't get out much)

Is there any room in this equation for works?

"Faith Alone Grace Alone Saves."

Evangelicals can't have works anywhere near.

Works are as fithy rags compared to what? Christ? I would agree. But that doesn't mean they arnt worth anything. They are still something.

Evangeicals have the mind set that good works are worth nothing.

[kantgomo]

The Bible is in perfect harmony?

Surley you jest... because the Barber shop quartet is a little off key.

Who was it the Raised Jesus from the Dead?

John says it was Jesus himself...

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 10:17-18 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. (18) "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Paul says it was His father...

Acts 2

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 13

30 But God raised him from the dead:

1 Cor. 15: 15

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

And what does John say in John 1:1,14?

[cksalmon]

Faith Alone was a Martin Luther invention. It is made espacially for Sunday-Only Christians who want the easy way to Salvation. It allows them to do whatever they want. Jesus was asked "how do I obtain Eternal Life? Jesus did not say, "just have faith". Jesus said to "keep the commandments".

It's always interesting--though, admittedly, frustrating--to read the comments of Mormons who obviously have utterly no grasp of what Martin Luther actually wrote confidently opine on what they've been led to believe are Martin Luther's "inventions."

But, carry on, Atticus. I'd never be so presumptuous as to suggest that you "buy a book," or "do some research," or "think."

Espacially since you're already in possession of sure knowledge regarding the matter at hand.

cks

[kantgomo]

I think there is a huge difference between what the LDS church and evangelicals regard as faith, atonement, grace, glory and Scripture. I also would venture to say that there are five solas as described in the five solas of the reformation that accompany faith alone. I cannot see where LDS teachings and evangelical teachings in any way resemble one another whatsoever.

[cksalmon]

And what does John say in John 1:1,14?

Oh, please, kant! Please don't attempt to bring a consistent Trinitarianism to this forum. We're here to argue against the consistency and reliability of the New Testament! Haven't you heard? For Mormons, the New Testament is obviously contradictory. Idiot.

cks

[Zakuska]

Aaaahhhh, the mormon default position. Bible bad, bom good.

Please, if you have any legitimate questions, ask away. But these are simply too sophomoric to consider.

Book of Mormon? Who said anything about BOM?

Talking about Sophmoric.

[kantgomo]

Oh, please, kant! Please don't attempt to bring a consistent Trinitarianism to this forum. We're here to argue against the consistency and reliability of the New Testament! Haven't you heard? For Mormons, the New Testament is obviously contradictory. Idiot.

cks

The NT has to be considered contradictory by LDS as it is inconsistent with LDS teaching.

[Zakuska]

And what does John say in John 1:1,14?

Which does nothing to Harmonize Pauls theology with Johns... To Paul Christ had a Father and that Father was the one true God.

Even John says as much... "The One True God and Jesus Christ whom though hast sent".

[AtticusFinch]

It's always interesting--though, admittedly, frustrating--to read the comments of Mormons who obviously have utterly no grasp of what Martin Luther actually wrote confidently opine on what they've been led to believe are Martin Luther's "inventions."

But, carry on, Atticus. I'd never be so presumptuous as to suggest that you "buy a book," or "do some research," or "think."

Espacially since you're already in possession of sure knowledge regarding the matter at hand.

cks

Ya know, sometimes I am humored by people like you who have no clue. First, I am not LDS. Second, I grew up Lutheran (missouri synod) and had two scholarships to Lutheran colleges that I turned down. So, I HAVE done the research.

But, please, continue making an idiot out of yourself. And while you are at it, tell us why Luther truly tried to ditch the Book of James.