Prophet and Apostle statements on Cumorah location

[J Green]

LOL. The BoM authors do not teach a LGT.

To many of us, they most certainly do.

That's why this thread is so interesting. When you started losing ground to Cold Steel on a purely textual LGT discussion in the other thread you decamped and shifted the argument in this one. You stopped discussing what the actual prophets said who revealed the text itself to what modern-day leadership has said by way of tradition/interpretation. You have lost the argument and so tried to change it through appeal to authority. And yet in doing so you have set up the ultimate beg-the-question thread. Good luck.

[cinepro]

The red star represents the drumlin Cumorah in New York. The Book of Mormon mentions that there was little timber, so they made their dwellings out of cement. I've seen the cement houses in Mexico and the jungles, while lush and green, did not have very much timber at all. It was typical jungle. The Northeastern U.S., however, has quite a bit of timber and it was all over the place when Jamestown was founded.

Here is one of the claims about buildings, where they express a preference for wood:

Helaman 3

9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of shipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

So it sounds like the people used cement, but still preferred wooden structures. This would especially explain the lack of evidence of their cities as well.

[Mortal Man]

I find it interesting that some of the fiercest advocates for elevating many of the non-doctrinal and non-core traditions and assumptions of the past to the status of doctrine--despite what the Church currently teaches about how to define doctrine--no longer really believe in the Church or these specific traditions themselves. Yet they are perhaps the most vocal caretakers for these traditions on behalf of others.

As a wee lad in primary, I was instructed in no uncertain terms that little streams and purple pansies could talk and that popcorn balls came from apricot trees.

I liked those songs; they fired my imagination and made me feel good. I didn't really care about the facts.

Then FARMS came along and dammed up the stream, trampled the flowers and confiscated all the popcorn.

While they're busy moving Cumorah from NY to Mexico, they may as well move Santa Claus from the North Pole to the South Bronx.

I'm sure that would make a lot of apologists happy because a North Pole location for Santa is really untenable. Extensive surveys of the region have failed to turn up a single toy or candy cane.

The Bronx, on the other hand, has many short people who could reasonably qualify as elves.

[J Green]

As a wee lad in primary, I was instructed in no uncertain terms that little streams and purple pansies could talk and that popcorn balls came from apricot trees.

I liked those songs; they fired my imagination and made me feel good. I didn't really care about the facts.

Then FARMS came along and dammed up the stream, trampled the flowers and confiscated all the popcorn.

While they're busy moving Cumorah from NY to Mexico, they may as well move Santa Claus from the North Pole to the South Bronx.

I'm sure that would make a lot of apologists happy because a North Pole location for Santa is really untenable. Extensive surveys of the region have failed to turn up a single toy or candy cane.

The Bronx, on the other hand, has many short people who could reasonably qualify as elves.

Well, honestly, who can rebut the "purple pansy" argument? Objection withdrawn.

[Freedom]

Are you also trying to turn this into a homosexual agenda thread. At least you didn't post gay porn like the other guy.

I find many of the "genuine scholarship" examples you mentioned to be the arm of flesh.

I count Talmage as one of the greatest scholars the church has every had. I agree with his position completely.

How convenient. You consider the current opinions the arm of flesh, but you wonâ??t apply the same notion to a man who happens to agree with your opinion, despite the fact that Talmage was completely lacking in any understanding of the ancient histories of the Americas. His opinions are not based on scholarship at all but you embrace it because it agrees with you. Gotcha.

[Sevenbak]

This was at the city of Jordon prior to the agreement to be able to gather at Cumorah.

There is no mention of going northward, this is an assumption on your part.

The agreement with the Lamanites and thus the journey northward came later as described at the beginning of Moroni 6.

Larry P

In all the BoM, did you ever hear of the City of Jordan until they passed by it, and other cities not mentioned, gathering all their inhabitants as they fled? It was new territory as they were fleeing northward to a land with rivers fountains and lakes.

[Sevenbak]

Here is to answering Sevenbak's CFR were early leaders have changed their minds.

I would like to add from that same source this;

Joseph Smith made several statements about Book of Mormon geography. The content of his statements changed over time. Some wish us to accept earlier statements by Joseph as prophetic and binding, while ignoring the content of later statements which do not match their personal theories.

Joseph Smith later thoughts 1841-1844

Anjen, NONE of these GA statements are them changing their position about Cumorah. NONE. Why are you bringing up their mesoamerican homeland statements (which I also support) as proof that they reversed course on Cumorah?

2 different things. Apples and oranges. Cureloms and Cumoms

[Sevenbak]

Apostles don't usually write books on geography...

Wait. Isn't this thread precisely about what has been written by apostles on the subject.

One, all I'm asking at this point is a single teaching supporting the LGT.

And the rest of your post is arguing against a limited Great Lakes model. I agree, as that is not my position.

[Sevenbak]

To many of us, they most certainly do.

That's why this thread is so interesting. When you started losing ground to Cold Steel on a purely textual LGT discussion in the other thread you decamped and shifted the argument in this one. You stopped discussing what the actual prophets said who revealed the text itself to what modern-day leadership has said by way of tradition/interpretation. You have lost the argument and so tried to change it through appeal to authority. And yet in doing so you have set up the ultimate beg-the-question thread. Good luck.

No sale. The text is read different ways, and yes, also by prophets and apostles that have the same text as you do.

[Sevenbak]

How convenient. You consider the current opinions the arm of flesh, but you wonâ??t apply the same notion to a man who happens to agree with your opinion, despite the fact that Talmage was completely lacking in any understanding of the ancient histories of the Americas. His opinions are not based on scholarship at all but you embrace it because it agrees with you. Gotcha.

Freedom, for you to make the argument that because the brethren are wrong on the homosexual issue, then they are also wrong on the Cumorah issue will take you nowhere with me, and I suspect most on this board, even though they may not share the single Cumorah belief.

Again, this isn't a Prop 8 thread.

[J Green]

Good grief!

[Sevenbak]

Good grief!

What is good grief? That your understanding of the textual meaning of parts of the BOM is not the same as taught by the brethren? Or my textual understanding is different than others?

If the text alone is the end all for understanding the BOM, then by all means, let's throw out the prophets and allow all private interpretation of the scriptures.

Good grief indeed.

[thesometimesaint]

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=2&id=555

The 1841 publication of John L. Stephens's Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan,49 however, changed this. The book contained illustrations of many ruins in Honduras, Guatemala, and Mexico by artist Frederick Catherwood and was an instant success. In June, the Latter-day Saint newspaper in Nauvoo, the Times and Seasons, reprinted an article from the New York Weekly Herald describing lectures by Catherwood in New York.50 In the fall of that year, John Bernhisel sent Joseph Smith a copy of Stephens and Catherwood's work. In a letter thanking his friend for the gift, Joseph wrote:

I received your kind present by the hand of Er. [Elder] Woodruff & feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem & friendship which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all the histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct

luminous & comprihensive.51

[J Green]

What is good grief? That your understanding of the textual meaning of parts of the BOM is not the same as taught by the brethren? Or my textual understanding is different than others?

If the text alone is the end all for understanding the BOM, then by all means, let's throw out the prophets and allow all private interpretation of the scriptures.

Good grief indeed.

You're Johnny redivivus--drive-by responses with no depth to any replies. Change your avatar to a monkey and have done.

Good grief is right!

[Sevenbak]

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=2&id=555

The 1841 publication of John L. Stephens's Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan,49 however, changed this. The book contained illustrations of many ruins in Honduras, Guatemala, and Mexico by artist Frederick Catherwood and was an instant success. In June, the Latter-day Saint newspaper in Nauvoo, the Times and Seasons, reprinted an article from the New York Weekly Herald describing lectures by Catherwood in New York.50 In the fall of that year, John Bernhisel sent Joseph Smith a copy of Stephens and Catherwood's work. In a letter thanking his friend for the gift, Joseph wrote:

I received your kind present by the hand of Er. [Elder] Woodruff & feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem & friendship which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all the histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct

luminous & comprihensive.51

I am aware of this, and how excited Joseph was to read about them as they offered the world a view of what he already knew. But how is this a statement refuting his teaching and other's teachings about Cumorah. This is about Zarahemla and surrounding region, "exceedingly" distant from the land northward.

[Sevenbak]

You're Johnny redivivus--drive-by responses with no depth to any replies. Change your avatar to a monkey and have done.

Good grief is right!

If you are now resorting to calling names, you sir and I are done.

[J Green]

If you are now resorting to calling names, you sir and I are done.

Were we ever started? I must have missed something.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

What we would need to know is how far exceedingly far was to the Nephites, which we don't. But even to a modern day foot soldier 50 miles a day is a LONG ways. Add in families, live stock, and no Holiday Inn at the end of the day we talking MUCH MUCH less. When the 19th Century pioneers crossed the Great Plains they averaged about 3 miles per day. I don't see how a group of people 3000 years ago would do much better.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

What we would need to know is how far exceedingly far was to the Nephites, which we don't. But even to a modern day foot soldier 50 miles a day is a LONG ways. Add in families, live stock, and no Holiday Inn at the end of the day we talking MUCH MUCH less. When the 19th Century pioneers crossed the Great Plains they averaged about 3 miles per day. I don't see how a group of people 3000 years ago would do much better.

In 4 years? I give a a nation fleeing and gathering for their lives much more credit that that. The pioneers traversed half the US in a few months. Even with long stops to regroup, 4 years is easily enough time to move that kinds of mass.

[ERayR]

You're Johnny redivivus--drive-by responses with no depth to any replies. Change your avatar to a monkey and have done.

Good grief is right!

J Green This post is out of line and in violation of board rules. Even though I don't subscribe to it Sevenback's position that Mesoamerica is BoM lands but that the Hill Cumorah is in upper New York, that the 4 year gathering was a migration to that area deserves some consideration. It is plausible and workable. Whether evidence can be found for it remains to be seen.

[thesometimesaint]

sevenbak:

IF we assume the Hemispheric Model those for 4 years quickly becomes less than one year in actual travel time. There is only about 3 months where foot travel was plausible. Those early pioneers knew what they were doing when they left Independence Mo. in late spring/ early summer. It allowed them to feed their animals, and still be in good enough shape to establish shelter before winter set in. Winters in most Norte Americano latitudes is not something anyone wants to be out in.

[J Green]

J Green This post is out of line and in violation of board rules. Even though I don't subscribe to it Sevenback's position that Mesoamerica is BoM lands but that the Hill Cumorah is in upper New York, that the 4 year gathering was a migration to that area deserves some consideration. It is plausible and workable. Whether evidence can be found for it remains to be seen.

I agree that his textual position deserves consideration. I think everyone's position deserves consideration. In fact, if you read back through the posts you'll find that I have not criticized his theory to which you refer at all. Not once. But I do take issue with his frequent implications that those of us who don't interpret the text the same way he does are not following the brethren. (If this isn't offensive, I don't know what is.) And when I try to engage him in a reasonable discussion, he doesn't reply to the substance but merely shotguns toss-away lines that remind me of Johnny's posts (whose avatar was a monkey). I did not call him any names, I simply compared his posting style to that of a former board participant.

[Sevenbak]

sevenbak:

IF we assume the Hemispheric Model those for 4 years quickly becomes less than one year in actual travel time. There is only about 3 months where foot travel was plausible. Those early pioneers knew what they were doing when they left Independence Mo. in late spring/ early summer. It allowed them to feed their animals, and still be in good enough shape to establish shelter before winter set in. Winters in most Norte Americano latitudes is not something anyone wants to be out in.

I'm not advocating a land northward devoid of people and villages and cities, thereby making travel more difficult.

The people started migrating there around 40 B.C, according to the BOM.

Mormon speaks of his retreat as passing numerous towns and villages along the way, gathering all the inhabitants as they fled. It's my belief that the "plains of the Nephites" as described by JS were just that, the north country. The Hopewell culture fits perfectly the dates in question, ending in roughly 500 A.D and they populated the vast majority of the Central and Eastern US.

At any rate, if Moroni had walked alone carrying the plates 2000 miles to NY, he would have encountered the cultures up there. He certainly didn't write about new people in the land of promise.

[ERayR]

I agree that his textual position deserves consideration. I think everyone's position deserves consideration. In fact, if you read back through the posts you'll find that I have not criticized his theory to which you refer at all. Not once. But I do take issue with his frequent implications that those of us who don't interpret the text the same way he does are not following the brethren. (If this isn't offensive, I don't know what is.) And when I try to engage him in a reasonable discussion, he doesn't reply to the substance but merely shotguns toss-away lines that remind me of Johnny's posts (whose avatar was a monkey). I did not call him any names, I simply compared his posting style to that of a former board participant.

I know he is frustrating but the bit about changing his avatar to a monkey?

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just don't get how the mound builders of Hopewell were in anyway connected to the Nephites.