Prophet and Apostle statements on Cumorah location

[Sevenbak]

You have to accept Sorensen or it all falls apart. It is not even plausible for the BOM to have been set in the great lakes region.

Not so. Nothing falls apart. Who is advocating a Great Lakes theory for the BOM lands on this thread? Only a very small part of the BOM took place around Cumorah.

[Sevenbak]

No, but the newsroom statement doesn't say that they have to utter it. It only says they "counsel together" to determine what is consistently proclaimed in Church materials.

So instead of asking whether the apostles or prophets are declaring it from the pulpit, we should be asking whether it is "consistently proclaimed in Church publications".

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the idea that the upperstate New York drumlin = BoM "Cumorah" might have consistent support in Church publications. Perhaps we should expand the scope of this thread to include official Church publications to see if it meets the standard set by the LDS newsroom?

That's fine by me, I welcome it. Does the Institute Book of Mormon manual count? As I stated in the other thread, it too teaches a single Cumorah, in NY. (the new 2009 version didn't include that)

The CES Student Manual for the Book of Mormon, Religion 121 & 122, p. 136.

http://www.ldsces.or...manualindex.asp

[Sevenbak]

Then I would include in that all the church videos that portray a tropical climate for the BoM, Actual temple dedicatory prayers of temples in Mexico. These all support that the BoM was in Mesoamerica and not in a frozen upstate New York. Perhaps they counseled together and determined now the thinking is more in line with the LGT scholars huh?

None of which speak to Cumorah, only the Nephite homeland, which is not in question here. I too believe that to be in Mesoamerica, as did the same brethren that taught a NY Ciumorah BTW.

Cumorah does not equate to Bountiful or Zarahemla. Not in the record, not in the words of JS or others.

[Sevenbak]

It would certainly superceed anything not found in an official publication because the Ensign itself is an official publication.

So in the Ensign we have Sorrenson and we have numerous brethren teaching a NY Cumorah.

They can't both be right, even though the Ensign is an "official publication". And back to my thesis... Sorrenson isn't a GA.

[Sevenbak]

I have a book called 'Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon'. Edited by Donald Parry and Daniel Peterson. The first chapter is an article by Niel A Maxwell, taken from the January 1997 Ensign. The editors, I presume, would need to receive permission from the Church to use this article. I do not know of a single publication from the past 20 years that has a general authority contribution that promotes anything but the Mezzo American model. Why is that?

I have another question, I know of several statements by general authorities that condemn card games. Are card games therefore forbidden in LDS doctrine? Or to rephrase the question, are all statements by general authorityâ??s doctrine?

If that is the case, then I think you can help. Can you provide one of these GA statements to that effect, that Cumorah (not general Nephite geography) was in Mesoamerica. No one has offered one yet.

[Sevenbak]

Sorry to disturb your party. The Book of Mormon should really absolutely have no meaning to apostates like me. I should really burn and disown it.

But I kinda like it.

I kinda like it too, but I suspect for different reasons.

[Freedom]

If that is the case, then I think you can help. Can you provide one of these GA statements to that effect, that Cumorah (not general Nephite geography) was in Mesoamerica. No one has offered one yet.

You have not established why this matters. We have quotes that say it was in NY, but them saying this is irrelevant because we have these same leaders saying that evolution is of the devil, that card games are evil, that homosexuality is learned behaviour. They have expressed many opinions that are now known to be incorrect. I do not know of any genuine scholarship that agrees with you, why is that?

[Sevenbak]

You have not established why this matters. We have quotes that say it was in NY, but them saying this is irrelevant because we have these same leaders saying that evolution is of the devil, that card games are evil, that homosexuality is learned behaviour. They have expressed many opinions that are now known to be incorrect. I do not know of any genuine scholarship that agrees with you, why is that?

Are you also trying to turn this into a homosexual agenda thread. At least you didn't post gay porn like the other guy.

I find many of the "genuine scholarship" examples you mentioned to be the arm of flesh.

I count Talmage as one of the greatest scholars the church has every had. I agree with his position completely.

[J Green]

which brought me back to the Book of Mormon I believed in as a child.

That was when I believed we had a divine calling to teach the Lamanites who their ancestors were; i.e., before their DNA got lost among the Asian immigrants.

That was when I believed that God had always kept America from the knowledge of other nations; so they wouldn't overrun the land, and thus leave it available for a place of inheritance.

That was when I believed that those whom the Lord God brought here should keep his commandments so that they could prosper and be kept from all other nations and possess this land unto themselves, with none to molest them.

That was when I believed that dwindling in unbelief was a bad thing. Because then God brought in other nations and gave them power to take away the lands of your possessions and you pretty much got scattered and smitten.

And these "beliefs" when doctrinally compared to, say, the Articles of Faith . . . ?

I find it interesting that some of the fiercest advocates for elevating many of the non-doctrinal and non-core traditions and assumptions of the past to the status of doctrine--despite what the Church currently teaches about how to define doctrine--no longer really believe in the Church or these specific traditions themselves. Yet they are perhaps the most vocal caretakers for these traditions on behalf of others. Is the restored gospel easier to reject when you write your own Wentworth Letter that outlines doctrines of HGT instead of, say, the Atonement and Resurrection?

Regards

[J Green]

Speaking of "losing sight of the forest":

The heart and soul of the Book of Mormon reside in the visit of the risen Savior to the New World and in its character as a second witness of Christ, not in its contribution to pre-Columbian ethnography, let alone in the data it supplies as a supposed treatise on Amerindian genetics.

Its heart and soul are wholly unaffected by limited-geography theories.

Exactly!

[J Green]

Sevenbak,

Do the authors of the text in question count as prophets and apostles too?

Not that I'm aware of, which is the reason for my repeated asking... I know of no authors of the LGT that are prophets or apostles.

So you don't consider any of the authors of the BOM to be prophets? That's very interesting.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak,

So you don't consider any of the authors of the BOM to be prophets? That's very interesting.

LOL. The BoM authors do not teach a LGT. The translator of same book certainly didn't either.

Also consider the fact that Joseph knew much more about these people by revelation that he ever wrote down. According to his mother:

“Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same. … During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode [method] of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them” (Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, pp. 82–83).

Second guessing Joseph because we think we know better just doesn't do much for me.

[poulsenll]

I agree completely with Joseph's statements about Mesoamerica. That's not what this thread is about. The land of the last battle was described by Mormon as "an exceedingly great distance" from the Nephite homeland, which I agree was in Mesoamerica.

What I'm asking for is any statements GA to the contrary of what has been taught by the brethren.

And no, I am not anti Mormon, nor are my quotes out of context. Far from it. I relish the Book of Mormon as the word of God. President Benson is my hero with his mission to flood the earth with its truth.

The term "an exceedingly great distance" is used only once in the Book of Mormon and refers to the northern migrations of the Nephites into the land northward.

Hel 3:3-5

3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

The description of the land of Cumorah is found in Mormon 6:4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Any examination of the geography of the Americas will show many possible locations containing large bodies of water and many rivers.

Incidently, they did not fight a running battle while moving to the land of Cumorah. The Lamanite king agreed to cease fighting while they moved to Cumorah.

Mormon 6:2-3

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired.

There were to be no battles until he had gathered his people to the land of Cumorah.

Larry P

[Sevenbak]

Larry, the exceedingly great distance was also traversed by the Nephites both by land and by sea. It was a mass migration at the time. Hagoth took a large group northward in his ship before he returned the following year. Why did he take a year to go to the land northward before returning if the land northward was in their same basic vicinity?

Also, the battles happened continually as they fled North, with stragglers and elderly being slaughtered because they weren't fast enough. City to village, gathering all in as they fled. No cities are mentioned by name that we recognize from the earlier text after they left Desolation.

The gathering at Cumorah was the final calm before the storm as both armies gathered all.

[BriAndrew]

So, with all the back and forth on this topic, I thought it might be a good idea to bring any and all GA statements on Cumorah's location to light.

No matter which camp you are in, please add to this discussion by stating the following:

1. Where you think it is.

2. GA statements supporting your viewpoint.

Please, this is not a discussion of overall BOM lands, but where the final battle took place and where Mormon hid up all the records.

I'll start. I realize there are many, so here's just a few supporting this view. I may add more as needed, but feel free to add more with additional posts.

Thanks,

Sevenbak

Cumorah = New York

Joseph Fielding Smith

â?? . . . This modernist theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America , not withstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years . . .â?

â??It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Wittmer, and others, could speak frequently of the spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact.â?

(Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, pp. 233-234.)

Marion G. Romney

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the "hill Cumorah." (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity which occurred some twenty five centuries ago--events which brought to and end the great Jaredite nation."

October General Conference, 1975.

Oliver Cowdery

"After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed."

Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.

Bruce R. McConkie

â??Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is locatedâ?¦in the western part of the state of New York ... Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.â? (Mormon Doctrine; pg. 174.)

Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241

James E. Talmage

On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York."

Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 255-256.

"The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation."

Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260.

B.H. Roberts (Church historian)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of todayâ??since the coming forth of the Book of Mormonâ??near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

George Albert Smith

"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

Orson Pratt

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

This may not be a discussion on all BOM lands but you have to keep in mind that both the Jaredites and Nephites had their final battle here. It seems clear to me from reading the Book of Mormon that the hill where Mormon and his Nephites had their final battle and where the Jaredites had their final battle was just a little north of the Narrow Neck. Keep in mind that Desolation was the northern part of the narrow neck and it was named desolation because they ran into Jaredite remains thinking they had discovered the city of Zarahemla, and that the area was desolate because of the Jaredite war.

As for the other part, about the GA's statements, Joseph Fielding Smith's comments on this issue contradict reality. If you read past that part where you quoted him in Doctrines of Salvation, he's trying to place the southern most city of Manti in Missouri, and the Narrow Neck of Land in Panama.

Currently I think the rule is that GA's cannot make public statements about the geography of the Book of Mormon lands, that kind of ties up our hands in finding GA's that support the two Cumorah theory.

[shrff]

Also, the battles happened continually as they fled North, with stragglers and elderly being slaughtered because they weren't fast enough. City to village, gathering all in as they fled. No cities are mentioned by name that we recognize from the earlier text after they left Desolation.

CFR that stragglers who were not fast enough were slaughtered en route to Cumorah.

[Sevenbak]

Mormon 5:

5 But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away.

6 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and eightieth year the Lamanites did come again against us to battle, and we did stand against them boldly; but it was all in vain, for so great were their numbers that they did tread the people of the Nephites under their feet.

7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites were swept down and destroyed.

8 And now behold, I, Mormon, do not desire to harrow up the souls of men in casting before them such an awful scene of blood and carnage as was laid before mine eyes; but I, knowing that these things must surely be made known, and that all things which are hid must be arevealed upon the house-tops

[Sevenbak]

This may not be a discussion on all BOM lands but you have to keep in mind that both the Jaredites and Nephites had their final battle here. It seems clear to me from reading the Book of Mormon that the hill where Mormon and his Nephites had their final battle and where the Jaredites had their final battle was just a little north of the Narrow Neck. Keep in mind that Desolation was the northern part of the narrow neck and it was named desolation because they ran into Jaredite remains thinking they had discovered the city of Zarahemla, and that the area was desolate because of the Jaredite war.

As for the other part, about the GA's statements, Joseph Fielding Smith's comments on this issue contradict reality. If you read past that part where you quoted him in Doctrines of Salvation, he's trying to place the southern most city of Manti in Missouri, and the Narrow Neck of Land in Panama.

Currently I think the rule is that GA's cannot make public statements about the geography of the Book of Mormon lands, that kind of ties up our hands in finding GA's that support the two Cumorah theory.

Desolation was also used to describe the land northward, as it had been striped of of timber. The great plains come to mind as I read that.

[Anijen]

Desolation was also used to describe the land northward, as it had been striped of of timber. The great plains come to mind as I read that.

When did the great plains get stripped of trees? I'll answer, never (since it is named the great plains because of its lack of trees) besides are you saying the great plains are the land northward? I thought you were a proponent of New york being the land northward. It seems you use whatever thing to bolster your ideas. Sevenbak all you really have are opinions of the early leaders somewhom had changed their minds like JS and BHR.

BTW I am still waiting for my CFR I called you on in the other post.

[Sevenbak]

When did the great plains get stripped of trees? I'll answer, never (since it is named the great plains because of its lack of trees) besides are you saying the great plains are the land northward? I thought you were a proponent of New york being the land northward. It seems you use whatever thing to bolster your ideas. Sevenbak all you really have are opinions of the early leaders somewhom had changed their minds like JS and BHR.

BTW I am still waiting for my CFR I called you on in the other post.

No, I hold true to the accepted Hemispheric model, which makes North America the land northward. Please don't assign statements or motives to me that aren't based in reality.

What CFR from the other thread did I miss?

And since you bring it up, can you in turn CFR where brethren have changed their mind about Cumorah as you said they did. I still have yet to see a single reference.

[poulsenll]

Mormon 5:

5 But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away.

6 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and eightieth year the Lamanites did come again against us to battle, and we did stand against them boldly; but it was all in vain, for so great were their numbers that they did tread the people of the Nephites under their feet.

7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanitesâ?? did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanitesâ?? were swept down and destroyed.

8 And now behold, I, Mormon, do not desire to harrow up the souls of men in casting before them such an awful scene of blood and carnage as was laid before mine eyes; but I, knowing that these things must surely be made known, and that all things which are hid must be arevealed upon the house-topsâ??

This was at the city of Jordon prior to the agreement to be able to gather at Cumorah.

3 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did come against us as we had fled to the city of Jordan; but behold, they were driven back that they did not take the city at that time.

4 And it came to pass that they came against us again, and we did maintain the city. And there were also other cities which were maintained by the Nephites, which strongholds did cut them off that they could not get into the country which lay before us, to destroy the inhabitants of our land.

5 But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away.

6 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and eightieth year the Lamanites did come again against us to battle, and we did stand against them boldly; but it was all in vain, for so agreat were their numbers that they did tread the people of the Nephites under their feet.

7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanitesâ?? did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanitesâ?? were swept down and destroyed.

There is no mention of going northward, this is an assumption on your part.

The agreement with the Lamanites and thus the journey northward came later as described at the beginning of Moroni 6.

Larry P

[Rob Osborn]

This may not be a discussion on all BOM lands but you have to keep in mind that both the Jaredites and Nephites had their final battle here. It seems clear to me from reading the Book of Mormon that the hill where Mormon and his Nephites had their final battle and where the Jaredites had their final battle was just a little north of the Narrow Neck. Keep in mind that Desolation was the northern part of the narrow neck and it was named desolation because they ran into Jaredite remains thinking they had discovered the city of Zarahemla, and that the area was desolate because of the Jaredite war.

Where is the connection that the Land of Cumorah is close to the narrow neck? I am very curious.

[Anijen]

... can you in turn CFR where brethren have changed their mind

Here is to answering Sevenbak's CFR were early leaders have changed their minds.

B.H. Roberts [1906] (Church historian)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of todayâ??since the coming forth of the Book of Mormonâ??near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

I would like to add from that same source this;

Roberts reiterated that the Book of Mormon should indeed be subjected to every test, including literary criticism, historical criticism, higher criticism, and archaeology. Improvement Era 1906

B.H. Roberts 1951 (New witnesses for God III)

Allowance for hyperbole must be made in the expression, "They began to cover the face of the whole earth," since the facts set forth in the whole history of the Nephites in the Book of Mormon are against the reasonableness of such an expression if taken literally. From the landing of Lehi's colony early in the sixth century B.C., to the date corresponding to the year 55 B.C., when the first considerable migration into the north land took place, Nephite occupancy of the promised land was limited to portions in the south part of the North Continent. The extent of the country occupied was but a very small part of the continent.

In other words, Roberts was quite comfortable with a limited geography that would place the events in Mesoamerica. Listen to this:

By reference to the map the reader, if he will consider the parts of the country now known as the south part of Mexico and Central America, will there find all the conditions that answer to the terms of the description in the passage quoted complied with as to "the sea south, and the sea north; the sea east and the sea west;" (Helaman 3: while the physical character of the same land, even now, will answer the requirements of the description of its being a land of "large bodies of water and many rivers;" (Helaman 3:4) and more abundantly may have been so before the convulsions of nature which took place in Nephite lands at Messiah's crucifixion.

the physical description relative to the contour of the lands occupied by the Jaredites and Nephites, that being principally that two large bodies of land were joined by a narrow neck of landâ??can be found between Mexico and Yucatan with the isthmus of Tehuantepec between.

Joseph Smith made several statements about Book of Mormon geography. The content of his statements changed over time. Some wish us to accept earlier statements by Joseph as prophetic and binding, while ignoring the content of later statements which do not match their personal theories.

Joseph Smith early thoughts 1833-34

"Our western tribes of Indiansâ?¦ that the land of America is a promised land unto them."

Zions camp and Zelph (to long to quote)

"...wandering over the plains of the Nephites"

Joseph Smith later thoughts 1841-1844

Joseph Smith to to John Bernhisel 1841

I received your kind present by the hand of Er Woodruff & feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem & friendship which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive

Joseph Smith as editor of the Times and seasons;

...better architectural designs, and more imperishable ruins, than what are found on this continent. Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history

Joseph Smith 1842

Let us turn our subject, however, to the Book of Mormon, where these wonderful ruins of Palenque are among the mighty works of the Nephites

[Cold Steel]

Apostles don't usually write books on geography, so the absence of books taking a position one way or the other is only to be expected. Second, there's no doubt but what the early New York hill was associated in the minds of the early church members as being Cumorah. One website, to prove it was the hill in New York, recalled the experience of some early brethren who saw Moroni appear as a man with a backpack. He said he was off to Cumorah, a term they had not heard, and then he vanished. The assumption was that he was on his way to the hill from which Joseph had taken the plates, which he did not state. Even if he was, it's entirely likely that that's what he chose to call the drumlin in which he buried the plates.

To those who believe that Ramah is the New York hill, where is the narrow neck of land it was supposed to be near? The West-East corridor simply does not fit the geography. To find Cumorah, one must first find that narrow neck and go from there. If one assumes that corridor to be the narrow neck, then Cumorah is located to the south. The corridor also doesn't cut off one land from another, but is simply a...corridor.

The red star represents the drumlin Cumorah in New York. The Book of Mormon mentions that there was little timber, so they made their dwellings out of cement. I've seen the cement houses in Mexico and the jungles, while lush and green, did not have very much timber at all. It was typical jungle. The Northeastern U.S., however, has quite a bit of timber and it was all over the place when Jamestown was founded.

Joseph Smith knew a great deal about the Nephite culture, it's modes of travel, how the people dressed and so forth, and when he saw the first drawings of the ancient Mesoamerican cities in John Lloyd Stephens' Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (New York, 1841), he became very excited, and many parts of the book were reproduced in the Times and Seasons. This was in 1842, and it's entirely possible that Smith recognized the culture. He even stated that Palenque was a Book of Mormon city. Though the city that exists there now is too late for the Book of Mormon period, there is a much older city beneath it. One can easily assume the styles and types of the buildings on top were very similar to those that had been there before.

I don't think that a Mesoamerican location for the Book of Mormon doesn't mean that the people didn't spread over the land; it's just that Cumorah can't exist near the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica and, at the same time, be in New York. Thus it's possible that the entire mythology built up around the hill in New York was simply that.

Again, what cinches it for me is the weather. Unless the land there in New York was tropical during 421 A.D., I would expect cold and ice. I'd expect to hear of people perishing because of the cold. At this same time, it was very cold in Europe along the same zone and people there did mention the cold. All the time. It didn't escape the notice of the Roman generals and military commanders; why would it not even be mentioned by either Mormon or Moroni? Forget that the geography doesn't fit without a crowbar, it's the complete lack of any reference to the cold that is the final straw. That kind of cold can easily kill almost as many men as weapons of war.

[Daniel Peterson]

I believe it does cut the heart and soul out of the book.

And I think that's ridiculous.

It appears that we're at an impasse.

I believe one of the most important aspects about the Book of Mormon is how it ties the Americas and American Indians to the time of Jerusalem, and that the Gospel came with them.

Something that limited-geographical theories affirm without hesitation.

If you say that the link to the American Indians and geography in general is not important,

I don't say that.

then there is really nothing unique about our church. We're just like any other Christian denomination.

You're right. We're not unique at all -- except in our concept of living prophets and apostles, our affirmation of a universal Christian apostasy, temple ordinances, continuing revelation, the corporeal and anthropomorphic nature of God, priesthood authority, our disbelief in predestination, the doctrine of exaltation or eternal progress, our belief in salvation for the dead, universal male lay priesthood, eternal marriage and the sealing of families, belief in Christ's visit to the New World, our rejection of the idea of salvation without works, the concept of a pre-mortal existence, our rejection of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo, our acceptance of an expanded canon, our rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin, the notion that humans and Gods are of the same species, our rejection of Nicene ontological Trinitarianism, our belief in a Heavenly Mother, and etc., and etc., and etc., and etc.

Come on.