Grace only after all we can do?

[Selah]

I just wanted to apologize for dropping the ball on this topic. I suffered a miscarriage a few days ago and therefore have been out of the loop. Although it has been some time since I have been a regular poster on this board, those of you who remember me, know that I am pretty good about keeping up with topics. Especially the ones that I start.

[so blessed]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

I see your point about the thief on the cross not needing any works for salvation.

Another scripture that really speaks to me in reference to the whole idea of grace after all man can do is Galatians Ch2 vs 21

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The rest of Galatians really explains the purpose of the law and how silly it would be to return to it.

[Earl]

Several years ago, Dallin H. Oaks in a conf address spoke about the importance of ...becoming. The take away was that our "good works" must some how transform us to be of any worth. Truer words have never been spoken...

My current struggle with contemporary LDS theology is that many GA's and popular purveyors of LDS thought have not taken his inspired counsel to heart. As a result we allow the pendulum to swing much too far to the side of legalisms and near mindless and blind obedience - which in the words of a Christian Evangelical author, are "silent killers of faith..."

We should not teach obedience without the necessary consequences of transformation and becoming...

We LDS are quick to call out dead faith, but are not so quick to understand the death (or the limits) of works ...

In the end, it is not what we have done, but who we are...

The faith/works paradigm, as taken to the limits of both contemporary LDS and Ev thought, is a useful tool of Satan to distract us from the substance of the gospel and the joy of the gift of Grace.

Earl

[so blessed]

I agree with you that the subject becomes very polarizing between LDS and evangelicals. I think what often happens though is the two parties talk past each other. Defining works and law is very important at the outset. You will be hard pressed to find a true born again evangelical who say works aren't important in the life of the believer. While not offering any redemptive quality, these works glorify God and as James teaches us, proves our faith alive. Whereas LDS clearly testify that certain works are redemptive and necessary to receive fellowship with God the Father.

A picture of what LDS paints is a person who says they believe in Jesus but lives like the devil. The argument then becomes from LDS perspective, evangelicals believe this person would be saved just because they say they believe in Jesus. I would atest, a true believer in Jesus cannot live like the devil. So yes there are works that come alive in the life a true believer, John 15, these works just do not offer any value or worth as Earl states when it comes to the value of man in the eyes of God. I would love to hear from someone, Earl maybe, some more detail on our works making us worth something.

[Flyonthewall]

I agree with you that the subject becomes very polarizing between LDS and evangelicals. I think what often happens though is the two parties talk past each other. Defining works and law is very important at the outset. You will be hard pressed to find a true born again evangelical who say works aren't important in the life of the believer. While not offering any redemptive quality, these works glorify God and as James teaches us, proves our faith alive. Whereas LDS clearly testify that certain works are redemptive and necessary to receive fellowship with God the Father.

A picture of what LDS paints is a person who says they believe in Jesus but lives like the devil. The argument then becomes from LDS perspective, evangelicals believe this person would be saved just because they say they believe in Jesus. I would atest, a true believer in Jesus cannot live like the devil. So yes there are works that come alive in the life a true believer, John 15, these works just do not offer any value or worth as Earl states when it comes to the value of man in the eyes of God. I would love to hear from someone, Earl maybe, some more detail on our works making us worth something.

I have heard different people that have stated that works come AFTER one is saved. Before one is saved no one can perform good works. This I cannot agree with.

Works are the actions of one's beleif, or as James points out, our works animate our faith, as faith without works is dead. As has been pointed out, our faith starts as a mustard seed, and our works give our faith life. While our faith is small, so are our good works. As our faith grows so do our works, and through our works we develop a pattern for ourselves...we become better people through service to others. And as Jesus has pointed out, when we serve others we serve Him, and our good works glorify our Father in Heaven...which is exactly what Christ did. It is through our works, combined with our faith, that we become Christ-like.

On the negative side, if we do not constantly exercise our faith, then our faith, like our muscles, can atrophy, and eventually can be useless or lost. We must endure to the end. There is no point in our lives where we can allow our faith to die and still expect to be "saved".

[LeSellers]

The rest of Galatians really explains the purpose of the law and how silly it would be to return to it.

The question arises, then, "What 'law'?"

People tend to forget that Paul is talking about the Law of Moses, and no Latter-day Saint has ever suggested that we obey that law. He does not say that obedience is unnecessary, nor that there are no commandments in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul, in contrast to what you claim, tells us that the Law [of Moses] was exactly what we LDSs proclaim it to have been: a substitute for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a "schoolmaster" to bring the Jews to Him, by a law of carnal commandments.

Your message implies that we LDSs believe that following it (or some mythical replacement for it) ensures our salvation, and that is a gross distortion of our beliefs.

Lehi

[so blessed]

Your message implies that we LDSs believe that following it (or some mythical replacement for it) ensures our salvation, and that is a gross distortion of our beliefs.

The previous is not my message, my message is anything that adds to grace takes away from what Christ Jesus has done for us. Thinking for one minute that anything we could do here on earth will contribute to achieving peace with God is dangerous.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thinking for one minute that anything we could do here on earth will contribute to achieving peace with God is dangerous.

What are you talking about? We can do something. We can accpet Jesus and do the best we can as he commanded us too. Or do you disagree that we don't have to accept Jesus?

[so blessed]

What are you talking about? We can do something. We can accpet Jesus and do the best we can as he commanded us too. Or do you disagree that we don't have to accept Jesus?

My apologies I took for granted you would assume I believe we must accept Christ's free gift of salvation. Things we can do beyond that is what I am referring to.

[ttribe]

My apologies I took for granted you would assume I believe we must accept Christ's free gift of salvation. Things we can do beyond that is what I am referring to.

Does that mean you believe that a person may, at one point in time, accept that gift, but is incapable of rejecting it later on?

[so blessed]

Does that mean you believe that a person may, at one point in time, accept that gift, but is incapable of rejecting it later on?

great question. When the gift is truly received, a transformation occurs in that person. The Holy Spirit enters that person and resides as a seal until the day of complete redemption. So this person will never want to reject it . If a person rejects it at some point in time, that is evidence they were truly never born again.

[Lightbearer]

Your message implies that we LDSs believe that following it (or some mythical replacement for it) ensures our salvation, and that is a gross distortion of our beliefs.

The previous is not my message, my message is anything that adds to grace takes away from what Christ Jesus has done for us. Thinking for one minute that anything we could do here on earth will contribute to achieving peace with God is dangerous.

So how exactly is being a "doer of the word" add to the atonement of Christ? What is dangerous is a doctrine that teaches that we are not accountable for our actions just because we say we believe in Christ or say we have accepted Him. How can we say we accept Christ and fail to obey Him? Moreover Peter told us to add to our faith:

(2 Peter 1:5-9) "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

Also John gives the following as I have already quoted earlier in the thread:

(1 John 3:2-9) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

It is rather apparent that being born again and being "saved" is a process that requires us to endure to the end.

[ttribe]

great question. When the gift is truly received, a transformation occurs in that person. The Holy Spirit enters that person and resides as a seal until the day of complete redemption. So this person will never want to reject it . If a person rejects it at some point in time, that is evidence they were truly never born again.

I find this reasoning rather circuitous. Nevertheless, moving on...is the act of "enduring to the end", or remaining faithful to one's acceptance of the Atonement not an act which bears on the salvation of the individual?

[Lightbearer]

great question. When the gift is truly received, a transformation occurs in that person. The Holy Spirit enters that person and resides as a seal until the day of complete redemption. So this person will never want to reject it . If a person rejects it at some point in time, that is evidence they were truly never born again.

I have heard this many times but it does not agree with the following:

(2 Peter 2:20-22) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

So apparently it is possible to "fall from grace." The question is if God is willing to allow us to repent... that is where His grace and mercy abound, His hand is stretched out to us unless we sin against the Holy Ghost.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have heard this many times but it does not agree with the following:So apparently it is possible to "fall from grace." The question is if God is willing to allow us to repent... that is where His grace and mercy abound, His hand is stretched out to us unless we sin against the Holy Ghost.

Those are some great scripture quotes, and there is no wiggle room for interpretation as in this case they are quite clear.

[so blessed]

Being doers of the word is important. couldn't agree with you more here

What is dangerous is a doctrine that teaches that we are not accountable for our actions just because we say we believe in Christ or say we have accepted Him

Nevertheless, moving on...is the act of "enduring to the end", or remaining faithful to one's acceptance of the Atonement not an act which bears on the salvation of the individual?

Enduring to the end is important, remaining faithful is a testimony of the faith that saves.

2 peter chapter 2 begins with this:

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Obviously the subject is false prophets and teachers who deny Christ. But 1 John 2:19 explains it clearly

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[DonBradley]

The Book of Mormon says "it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do," but what is "after" supposed to mean here? Does it indicate sequence, as the OP poster, and apparently Mormons with whom she has been talking, assume?

I don't believe it means this at all. The emphasis of the passage is not on human works but on the need for grace:

2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This does not mean that grace is given to human beings only after they do everything they possibly can. Rather, the passage means that even after all we can do we are still saved by grace.

Another passage in the Book of Mormon that says this comes from the people of Ammon:

Alma 24:11

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain

Don

[ttribe]

Being doers of the word is important. couldn't agree with you more here

What is dangerous is a doctrine that teaches that we are not accountable for our actions just because we say we believe in Christ or say we have accepted Him

Nevertheless, moving on...is the act of "enduring to the end", or remaining faithful to one's acceptance of the Atonement not an act which bears on the salvation of the individual?

Enduring to the end is important, remaining faithful is a testimony of the faith that saves.

2 peter chapter 2 begins with this:

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Obviously the subject is false prophets and teachers who deny Christ. But 1 John 2:19 explains it clearly

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Do you intend to address the scriptures posted by Lightbearer?

[Hoops22]

Those are some great scripture quotes, and there is no wiggle room for interpretation as in this case they are quite clear.

2 Peter 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

2 Peter 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Your point being? This does not say that once saved always saved, or that you can obtain eternal security, sorry. Thanks for playing.

On another note, if a person beats his wife after he has confessed Jesus, is that person saved? I believed you answed no, it is obvious that they were never saved. Is that a correct rendition of your beliefs?

[Hoops22]

Your point being? This does not say that once saved always saved, or that you can obtain eternal security,

It does, however, tell us that they RECEIVED the faith. You must now justify some possible universe that would allow one to give it back. I am quite sure that when one receives THE FAITH it is impossible to give it back. It's a might puny faith if one can.

On another note, if a person beats his wife after he has confessed Jesus, is that person saved?

Why not?

And what is the tripping point. One beating? Five? And what constitutes a beating? 10 slaps? five? one? How about if one just wants to beat one's wife? Would that do it? The intent is there - and, according to the sermon on the mount, that's enough to be the sin.

I believed you answed no,

That was another Hoops. I never wrote that.

it is obvious that they were never saved. Is that a correct rendition of your beliefs?

No, it is not.

[Earl]

We LDS reject the once saved always saved theology, but what about D&C 132:19?

19. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themâ??Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsâ??then shall it be written in the Lambâ??s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

Earl

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It does, however, tell us that they RECEIVED the faith. You must now justify some possible universe that would allow one to give it back. I am quite sure that when one receives THE FAITH it is impossible to give it back. It's a might puny faith if one can.

Why not?

Who said anything about giving it back, what a straw man you have constructed, have fun beating it up. The issues is that taht one can fall from grace by their own actions and choices as Peter spelled out.

And what is the tripping point. One beating? Five? And what constitutes a beating? 10 slaps? five? one? How about if one just wants to beat one's wife? Would that do it? The intent is there - and, according to the sermon on the mount, that's enough to be the sin.

That was another Hoops. I never wrote that.

No, it is not.

So it is your opinion that If I beat my wife after I confessed Jesus I am still saved? What if I kill someone after, I just go to 7-11 and blow the cashier away for no reason, am I still saved? yes or now, why or why not?

[Hoops22]

Who said anything about giving it back, what a straw man you have constructed, have fun beating it up. The issues is that taht one can fall from grace by their own actions and choices as Peter spelled out.

Peter in no way supports the LDS position. For one to fall from grace by their own actions requires that the reverse be true - that one can obtain grace through ones own actions. The negates the death of Christ.

So it is your opinion that If I beat my wife after I confessed Jesus I am still saved? What if I kill someone after, I just go to 7-11 and blow the cashier away for no reason, am I still saved? yes or now, why or why not?

I answered your question simply and directly. I have a question to you on the table.

[Lightbearer]

Peter in no way supports the LDS position. For one to fall from grace by their own actions requires that the reverse be true - that one can obtain grace through ones own actions. The negates the death of Christ.

I answered your question simply and directly. I have a question to you on the table.

So if our own actions cannot cause us to "fall from grace" then why did Peter say the following:

(2 Peter 2:20-22) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

So it seems that the ones spoken of here did turn from righteousness and wallowed in the mire. So by your own admission it is possible to obtain grace through ones own actions! How this negates the death of Christ is a mystery to me. The fact that Christ requires obedience to Him in no way negates His atonement for our sins. If we sin then we are turning to our own vomit again! If we follow Him and repent and endure to the end, then we receive His atonement and make it effective in our lives. If we give mere lip service and do not follow Him how can we say we have received His grace? Listen to another witness of Jesus Christ:

(Ether 12:27-28) "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto meâ??the fountain of all righteousness."

This is how we overcome sin, this is how we reject the natural man and become a Saint. It is buy His grace, and we are free agents to choose who we will obey. Without Him we could not obey, we would be hopelessly lost. Here is how we come unto Him:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

That says it better than I ever could.