Grace only after all we can do?

[Lightbearer]

And so what of Elder Oaks' teachings which I mentioned earlier in this post? Works without the transformation of the soul, without the becoming like Christ... are equally dead... obedience is not enough... It is not what we have done, but who we are...

Earl

No LDS, including myself has ever said obedience was enough! (If so they are seriously mistaken) But we must be obedient to be a true follower of Christ. We must be born again, we must have a mighty change of heart... However our obedience is an indicator of that change, and that change is a gradual one for the most part. That is why we partake of the Sacrament weekly, that is why we repent daily, that is why we study and pray and do the works of righteousness in order to retain a remission of our sins. King Benjamin explained it much better than I ever could:

(Mosiah 2:20-26, 37-38) "I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with anotherâ?? I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you. And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust. And ye behold that I am old, and am about to yield up this mortal frame to its mother earth... And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdomâ??s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preservedâ?? I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever."

Jesus Christ will not save us "in our sins" only "from our sins" there is a distinction. Unless we forsake the natural man and become a Saint and yield unto the enticings of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end, we cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God.

[gmormon]

I just wanted to apologize for dropping the ball on this topic. I suffered a miscarriage a few days ago and therefore have been out of the loop. Although it has been some time since I have been a regular poster on this board, those of you who remember me, know that I am pretty good about keeping up with topics. Especially the ones that I start.

I meant to comment on this yesterday, and got lost in my own thoughts, thanks Hamba Tuhan for reminding me.

I am also sorry for your loss, and pray for your continued well being.

[so blessed]

"Jesus Christ will not save us "in our sins" only "from our sins" there is a distinction. Unless we forsake the natural man and become a Saint and yield unto the enticings of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end, we cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God."

The word is pretty clear He did save us "in our sins" Look at Romans 5

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

While we were sinners Christ died for us. It is amazing.

[Lightbearer]

"Jesus Christ will not save us "in our sins" only "from our sins" there is a distinction. Unless we forsake the natural man and become a Saint and yield unto the enticings of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end, we cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God."

The word is pretty clear He did save us "in our sins" Look at Romans 5

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

While we were sinners Christ died for us. It is amazing.

What is amazing is how you cannot understand what I am talking about. How can Christ save us from our sins if we will not repent? How can we follow Christ without doing what He commands us to do? On the one hand you say we are all sinners, (and we are) yet on the other if a person sins after being "saved" he was not really saved to start with, or it really does not count as a sin(once saved always saved)? Christ will not cleanse the unrepentant otherwise what is the point of the Gospel in the first place? The key difference I see is how are we reconciled to God? I will answer: Through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not lip service faith, not a mere belief, but living faith that moves us to repentance and repentance meaning a real change of heart, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, which leads to the covenant relationship we enter into at baptism, thus washing away our sin and then the receiving of the Holy Ghost which guides us into all good works and teaches us to abhor sin. Then it is up to us to continue in the faith, to endure in faith by obeying Christ to the end. This enduring to the end is the purpose of the Church, to teach us the right way and to give us the opportunity to renew our covenant as we repent of transgressions after baptism and step by step and line upon line, we overcome the world through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not denying the atonement of Christ, but is proclaiming that faith alone if it is not accompanied by works (meaning obedience to the Gospel of Christ) is dead, meaning of no saving value. So nobody can err, neither can our good works save us without a true and abiding faith in the Lord Jesus Christ would shed His blood that we might be forgiven if we will repent and come unto Him.

[so blessed]

Look at Romans, righteousness is credited to us, through our faith. The whole idea of justification in relation to redemption, is we are declared righteous by God through our faith, we are not made righteous, yet, that day will come. For now we are only declared righteous through our faith.

The difference is LDS teaches that Jesus makes salvation possible, it is up to man to see it to fruition, whereas the Bible teaches our salvation is a gift, not wages that are deserved, but credited to us undeservingly.

[Lightbearer]

Look at Romans, righteousness is credited to us, through our faith. The whole idea of justification in relation to redemption, is we are declared righteous by God through our faith, we are not made righteous, yet, that day will come. For now we are only declared righteous through our faith.

The difference is LDS teaches that Jesus makes salvation possible, it is up to man to see it to fruition, whereas the Bible teaches our salvation is a gift, not wages that are deserved, but credited to us undeservingly.

Just because salvation is a gift does not mean that we do not need to qualify for that gift. Let us turn to Romans:

(Romans 2:5-11) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

Is this not what LDS teach? See this:

(D&C 14:7) "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

Christ does for us what we cannot do, he requires of us to follow Him and do righteous works or else why did he say this:

(John 5:28-29) "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So does this mean what we have "done" either good or evil will play a part in our judgement? Or what did Paul mean here?:

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

What is race that we must run? Why did Paul say he had to stay in control or he might become a "castaway"? Or what is John talking about here?

(1 John 2:1-6) "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

This sounds a lot like the struggle that we have in this life to overcome the sins of the world through the power of the atonement of Christ. Also see the following:

(1 John 3:1-9) "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

If we are born of God, we cannot sin at the same time, thus if we endure to the end we are born of God, if we sin we must repent or else we will be subject to the devil. I cannot explain it more plainly.

[Tanyan]

Look at Romans, righteousness is credited to us, through our faith. The whole idea of justification in relation to redemption, is we are declared righteous by God through our faith, we are not made righteous, yet, that day will come. For now we are only declared righteous through our faith.

The difference is LDS teaches that Jesus makes salvation possible, it is up to man to see it to fruition, whereas the Bible teaches our salvation is a gift, not wages that are deserved, but credited to us undeservingly.

Ah so blessed yes True Salvation is a Free Gift and not a wage we work for [ But it needs to be maintained by Labors of Love for GOD and our fellow man to show we wish to stay Saved and be Exhalted] yes we access/activate The LORD OF LIFE'S True Grace [Charis] through "Faith"

[pistis],it would be of value to you to look up the meaning of Faith in the greek.

WE LDS appriciate your reminder of that concept to us. Do you have True Pistis ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[volgadon]

Look at Romans, righteousness is credited to us, through our faith.

And our faith is no faith unless we do something with it.

[so blessed]

But Jesus told us the work God requires is to believe in the One He sent

[ttribe]

But Jesus told us the work God requires is to believe in the One He sent

Did you happen to forget the whole "keep my commandments" thing?

[Cold Steel]

The prophet Nephi spoke truly when he said that grace would carry us to the throne of God "after all we can do." This is taught from the scriptures from the beginning and it keeps popping up even after it's been explained dozens of times. The scriptures are clear that although works don't save us, it is impossible to be saved without them. This includes not only 1) obedience to the gospel, including ordinances like baptism, but 2) acts of benevolence and charity.

Nephi's sentiments are reflected by the fact that not only he, but Moses and the Brother of Jared were required to trek up tall mountains to meet God. But why mountains? Couldn't God have appeared in a valley, or a tent, or in the remote desert areas? The trek up the mountain was symbolic of man's having to meet God to the extent he was able, and that God would do the rest. James writes: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Faith, grace and works isn't an "either/or" type of a thing. They all go together, and the scriptures are abundantly clear on this. Jesus said he who believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and people say, no, actually believing is enough because baptism is a work and works don't save. It seems everyone who wrote the New Testament scriptures understood this, but sectarians never lose an opportunity to argue how many angels fit on the head of a pin. If belief was all that was necessary, there would be no need for doctrines or for a church, or for the sacrament of the Lord's supper. Yet we have all these things. Why else would fasting be a sacred principle if not to represent man meeting God part way, of sacrificing creature comforts to bring into play the power of God. Alma writes, for example, that the people of God "had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God." Why did the apostles fast if they didn't need to. Why did Paul tell the Corinthians, "that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not...."? And Jesus spoke of healing and casting out demons with respect to fasting and prayer, saying in one case, "This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

Doing everything you can do is a central doctrine of Christianity. Don't the scriptures teach us that we'll be judged according to our works? Why aren't we told that we'll be judged according to our faith, or according to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ? It's because our faith will be judged in the balance with our works.

Elder Douglas Callister tells this story:

I once conversed with a fine young man who was not of our faith, although he had attended most of our worship services for more than a year. I asked why he had not joined the Church. He replied, "Because I do not know whether it is true. I think it may well be true, but I cannot stand and testify, as you do, 'I actually know it is true.' "

I inquired, "Have you read the Book of Mormon?" He answered that he had read in the book.

I asked whether he had prayed about the book. He answered, "I have mentioned it in my prayers."

I told my friend that as long as he casually read and prayed, he never would find out, worlds without end. But when he set aside a period for fasting and pleading, the truth would be burned into his heart, and he would know that he knew. He said nothing more to me but told his wife the next morning that he would be fasting. The following Saturday he was baptized.

If you want to know that you know that you know, a price must be paid. And you alone must pay that price. There are proxies for ordinances, but none for the acquisition of a testimony.

Alma spoke of his conversion in these beautiful words: "I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me." (Knowing That We Know, CR October 2007)

People assume that everything comes easily with God, with absolutely no price tag. But God requires obedience and he requires that we love our fellow man. He also requires effort on our parts. As he told Oliver Cowdery, who desired to translate the part of the Book of Mormon and was unable, "Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me."

It's true that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, but of us it's required to open the door, regardless of what we're doing or the inconvenience it may cause us.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But Jesus told us the work God requires is to believe in the One He sent

That is it? Just believe? What does that even mean?

I see that you skipped right over LB very plain post. I wonder why taht is.

[Tanyan]

But Jesus told us the work God requires is to believe in the One He sent

From my understanding "believe" is an action word in the greek and has a presunt future tense of action for it to work.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.