Grace only after all we can do?

[Hoops22]

So if our own actions cannot cause us to "fall from grace" then why did Peter say the following:

He was referring to these people:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

[Hoops22]

The fact that Christ requires obedience to Him in no way negates His atonement for our sins.

Of course it does. That's the whole point of the atonement.

If we sin then we are turning to our own vomit again! If we follow Him and repent and endure to the end, then we receive His atonement and make it effective in our lives. If we give mere lip service and do not follow Him how can we say we have received His grace?

This pretty much sums it up.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

He was referring to these people:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

Whoa, I don't see how a serious discussion can continue with you.

[Lightbearer]

I wonder what Paul was talking about here?

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

What is Paul talking about if not enduring to the end?

[ERayR]

Peter in no way supports the LDS position. For one to fall from grace by their own actions requires that the reverse be true - that one can obtain grace through ones own actions. The negates the death of Christ.

I answered your question simply and directly. I have a question to you on the table.

Have I got this right, I can do nothing to be saved and I can do nothing to fall from grace. So is it just one big lottery. If my number comes up I am saved, if it doesn't I am not saved. Then can I go about robbing, killing, committing adultry etc and hope my number comes up so that I won't want to do those things anymore.

[Reklaw]

He was referring to these people:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

That doesn't change the fact that Peter explicitly says, "For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness, than, AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

These weren't individuals who were "almost saved" and then turned away. These are apostates. These are those who had come to Christ and then turned away or had "fallen from grace".

It is because of these false teachers that Peter goes on to warn, "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:17-18)

False teachers had turned from Christ and Peter warned us so that we would not fall from grace, but instead grow in it. It is very obvious that one can fall. Saying otherwise is dishonest exegesis.

[Reklaw]

Once more, I have answered this elsewhere. See my first post on here.

[so blessed]

ttribe you asked me to respond to lightbearers verses. They do exhort us to Godly living but no where in any of the verses does it indicate they are necessary to salvation or contribute in any way to peace with God in respnse to our sinful being. Let us be clear no christian discusses this topic to take the side of receiving Christ and then live like the devil. the importance of this discussion is the weight that is given to works and human effort in attaining eternal life as opposed to death. You could list scripture all day that exhorts christian to obedience, but nothing in the Bible affirms the LDS teachings of grace after all we can do. We do hear from the word that insulting the Spirit of grace will result in judgment. See Hebrews ch 10,specifically vs 29 and following.

[Tanyan]

ttribe you asked me to respond to lightbearers verses. They do exhort us to Godly living but no where in any of the verses does it indicate they are necessary to salvation or contribute in any way to peace with God in respnse to our sinful being. Let us be clear no christian discusses this topic to take the side of receiving Christ and then live like the devil. the importance of this discussion is the weight that is given to works and human effort in attaining eternal life as opposed to death. You could list scripture all day that exhorts christian to obedience, but nothing in the Bible affirms the LDS teachings of grace after all we can do. We do hear from the word that insulting the Spirit of grace will result in judgment. See Hebrews ch 10,specifically vs 29 and following.

True Grace, Saves and Exhalts, but True Obedient Labors of Love for the Lord and our fellow man show we want to be and stay saved. It;s is connected to the Salvation Triangle.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[so blessed]

True Grace, Saves and Exhalts, but True Obedient Labors of Love for the Lord and our fellow man show we want to be and stay saved. It;s is connected to the Salvation Triangle.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Is that kinda like the bermuda triangle, people with good intentions find themselves lost.

[ttribe]

Is that kinda like the bermuda triangle, people with good intentions find themselves lost.

Ummm...no. There seems to be disconnect for you regarding the mercy aspect of the concept of grace.

[Tanyan]

Is that kinda like the bermuda triangle, people with good intentions find themselves lost.

No it is the True Salvation Triangle [Not Bermuda] .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Lightbearer]

ttribe you asked me to respond to lightbearers verses. They do exhort us to Godly living but no where in any of the verses does it indicate they are necessary to salvation or contribute in any way to peace with God in respnse to our sinful being. Let us be clear no christian discusses this topic to take the side of receiving Christ and then live like the devil. the importance of this discussion is the weight that is given to works and human effort in attaining eternal life as opposed to death. You could list scripture all day that exhorts christian to obedience, but nothing in the Bible affirms the LDS teachings of grace after all we can do. We do hear from the word that insulting the Spirit of grace will result in judgment. See Hebrews ch 10,specifically vs 29 and following.

It is rather instructive that you dismiss the verses I quote which do in fact indicate that our efforts are necessary. There really is no other way to interpret the quoted scriptures, our righteous living is essential because we are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the principles and the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Also in relation to your quote:

(Hebrews 10:29) "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

This is not talking about those who do not believe in the perverted doctrine of "grace alone" as espoused by Luther and others to justify their break with the Catholic Church. What it is talking about is those who reject living prophets (in this particular case Paul), and the rejection of any of the words of Jesus Christ (including the Book of Mormon) and "trodden under foot the Son of God" by condemning His Church and the Saints of God who, are those who need fear His judgment. Also let us not forget earlier in that same chapter, it explains those he is referring to:

(Hebrews 10:26-27) "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Does this not in effect say that if we sin after receiving the covenant of the Gospel and do not repent then we will be damned? It is a foolish argument to say yes we are followers of Christ, yet we do not have to keep His commandments to be saved! It is a perversion of the Bible to say that God does not expect us to keep His commandments when that is the true example of what having faith in Christ really is! How can we follow Christ without keeping the commandments of the Father? Why call me Lord Lord and do not what I say? Our obedience to Christ is what sustains our faith in Him and it is His mercy and grace that saves us AFTER we have endured to the end!

[Tanyan]

so blessed, Are you familiar with the True Salvation Triangle ?

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[so blessed]

It is rather instructive that you dismiss the verses I quote which do in fact indicate that our efforts are necessary. There really is no other way to interpret the quoted scriptures, our righteous living is essential because we are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the principles and the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Also in relation to your quote:This is not talking about those who do not believe in the perverted doctrine of "grace alone" as espoused by Luther and others to justify their break with the Catholic Church. What it is talking about is those who reject living prophets (in this particular case Paul), and the rejection of any of the words of Jesus Christ (including the Book of Mormon) and "trodden under foot the Son of God" by condemning His Church and the Saints of God who, are those who need fear His judgment. Also let us not forget earlier in that same chapter, it explains those he is referring to:Does this not in effect say that if we sin after receiving the covenant of the Gospel and do not repent then we will be damned? It is a foolish argument to say yes we are followers of Christ, yet we do not have to keep His commandments to be saved! It is a perversion of the Bible to say that God does not expect us to keep His commandments when that is the true example of what having faith in Christ really is! How can we follow Christ without keeping the commandments of the Father? Why call me Lord Lord and do not what I say? Our obedience to Christ is what sustains our faith in Him and it is His mercy and grace that saves us AFTER we have endured to the end!

"we are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the principles and the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."This is the essential difference, the bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. not obedience."Does this not in effect say that if we sin after receiving the covenant of the Gospel and do not repent then we will be damned?"No what it is saying is no longer is sacrifice an option, the old way of doing things is past. Yes even after receiving Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are still sinners, and yes we should continue to ask forgiveness. but it is not a saved now , not saved, saved now, not saved roller coaster. Christ said once we are in God's grasp, He will not let go, start focusing on God and not man.no teach me the salvation triangle

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Our obedience to Christ is what sustains our faith in Him and it is His mercy and grace that saves us AFTER we have endured to the end!

Once again you have posted some rather powerful scripturual verses that destroy once saved always saved.

[Tanyan]

so blessed are you familiar with the achient greek meaning for faith ? if not I would implore you to read the anchient christology soteriology meaning of that word [which by the way also falls under the meaning of obedience].

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I asked this in another thread, this one seems to be more appropriate. Can Hoops or So Blessed explain this scripture to me?

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

What does it mean to be "unworthily"? What does it mean that we shall be "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord"?

Thanks. I think OSAS is a sham, I will be upfront in my belief. But I am currious how you and people that believe that OSAS is gospel how you deal with certain scriptures. I have one more for you.

15

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"we are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the principles and the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."This is the essential difference, the bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. not obedience."Does this not in effect say that if we sin after receiving the covenant of the Gospel and do not repent then we will be damned?"No what it is saying is no longer is sacrifice an option, the old way of doing things is past. Yes even after receiving Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are still sinners, and yes we should continue to ask forgiveness. but it is not a saved now , not saved, saved now, not saved roller coaster. start focusing on God and not man.no teach me the salvation triangle

So what you are saying is then we have a free pass to sin after we confess Jesus.

Except this line of thinking goes agiant that which LB posted.

CFR that Christ said, "Once we are in God's grasp, He will not let go." I cant find that verse in the Bible.

[Tanyan]

They need to understand The Anchient True Charis[Grace] Through True Pistis [Faith] .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Reklaw]

"we are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the principles and the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."This is the essential difference, the bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. not obedience."

And that is where you are fundamentally wrong and do not fully grasp what the text says. Since you haven't looked at the link on my original post, I will just paste what the link says here, considering I've answered this in another group:

Just to be clear, when the LDS speak of salvation, they usually mean it in its fullest and complete sense (ie celestial kingdom). However, if one has the companionship of the Spirit, they could indeed consider themselves "saved" or in a saved state. Brigham Young taught, "It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground." Should we lose the Spirit, however, our salvation goes along with it. In a nutshell, the LDS believe "that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation" (D&C 20:29-33).

Eph. 2:8-10 states that we are "saved by grace through faith." The Greek "through" is dia, which means "by means of." "Faith" is pistis, meaning "the conviction of truth" as well as "faithfulness, fidelity" (I will post more on this a little later). An alternate translation could therefore be "saved by grace by means of faithfulness." Faithfulness requires action. If you eliminate action or works from the salvific essentials, you are left with a mere intellectual assent. If the formula is truly Faith = Salvation + Works, then it is nothing more than a mental concept that saves you. Yes, good works may flow from your salvation, but it was simply a thought that saved you originally. However, salvation is never spoken of as a one-time event. It is a process, as demonstrated by the past, present, and future tenses in which it is used throughout the New Testament. "Saved" in vs. 8 is the Greek perfect tense, meaning a completed action ("you have been saved") with continual results ("you are saved"). Verse 10 says that we are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The Greek is "upon good works" and it seems to indicate that these foreordained good works which we are created upon are Christ's own (though it could simply be referencing good works we are ordained to do). He indeed was obedient to eternal principles, doctrines, and commandments and we are expected to mirror this. This understanding goes along perfectly with 1 John 2:6: "He that saith he abideth in [Christ] ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." "Walk" in vs. 10 is in present tense Greek, indicating a continual, habitual action and lifestyle. One who chooses to abide in Christ is expected to follow His example. Should we cease to do so, our salvation apparently can slip away from us. Polycarp, the supposed disciple of John the Apostle, alluded to Eph. 2 when he said, "In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; " into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not of works," but by the will of God through Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philippians, AD 110-135). However, in the same epistle he said, "Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory ...For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming." He understood that grace ultimately saves, but that those who did not keep the commandments had no place in God's kingdom. I as a Latter-Day Saint find no fault with Polycarp's teaching here. Sola fide is not only unbiblical, but it is not found in Christian thought until the 16th century.

Paul instructed the saints to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philip. 2:12). "Work out" is also present tense Greek and is the word katergazomai, which means "work or bring to completion". A more literal rendering would be "You yourself keep on bringing your salvation fully to its intended goal." Should we become lazy in this salvific work, our salvation will remain incomplete and we will fall short of our intended goal. This is why the author of Hebrews states, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water (seems to allude to a ceremonial washing or even baptism. See 1 Peter 3:21). Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering...And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works" (Heb. 10:22-24). Notice that this is addressed to those who have faith and the author includes himself in this group. He then warns, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" (Heb. 10:26-27). It is possible for those in the faith to fall into apostasy. This is not a reference to those who "almost have saving faith" or whatever other nonsensical eisegesis that is laid on top of this. It clearly states that the faithful can indeed fall. And should this happen, eternal life will not await them on the other side. This is why earlier he says, "[Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9). Paul made this clear in Romans 2:6-8: "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing (Greek is literally "perseverance in good works") seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath." Only those who persevere in good works will be rewarded with eternal life, for Christ Himself said, "the Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).

Jesus defined eternal life in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." The Greek for "know" here is ginosko. It was often used as an idiom for sexual intercourse and therefore represents an intimate relationship. The same word is used by John in his first epistle: "And hereby we do know that we know (ginosko) [Christ], if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4). Commandment keeping is equivalent to obtaining eternal life. To say otherwise is, as John says, a lie. This is why James exhorts, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). Christ explicitly said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments...He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" (John 14:15, 21). Notice that Paul said we must have "faith which worketh by love" in Galatians 5:6. And "though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (or love, which Christ equates with commandment keeping), I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2).

Your exegesis of James 2 is attrociously flawed. Nowhere in scripture is justification before men taught, "saving faith" mentioned, eternal security mentioned, and "faith alone" is only found in James 2 when it says "not by..." (unless you want to pull a Martin Luther and start adding "alone" in your own translation of the Bible. So much for the "thou shalt not add or take away" mindset...). James 2 and Romans 4 both use the Greek dikaiwo for justified. They both use Gen. 15:6 and Abraham as an example of justification. If Paul is talking about justification before God and James is talking about justification before men, then they contradict each other. One would therefore be misinterpreting the verse. The truth of the matter is that James is also talking about justification in a salvific sense, made evident by "can faith save him?" (James 2:14; the Greek is "can the faith save him?" and indicates that a negative answer is expected. Obviously, faith alone will not save). James continues: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (Greek means "barren, unfruitful, unprofitable." Peter taught that we must abound in diligence, faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity if we did not want to be "barren or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" [2 Peter 1:5-8]) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God (Christ said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" [John 15:13-14]). Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:20-24). It makes it clear that the justification that took place in Gen. 15:6 was fulfilled AFTER the attempted sacrifice. And the angel of the Lord made it very clear who the sacrifice was for: "For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen. 22:12). This was justification before God, not man. This was a salvific act. Paul does not declare that works are unnecessary for salvation, but condemns certain kinds: "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Rom. 4:4). Paul demonstrated that good works were essential for eternal life in Romans 2, but in that same chapter he thrashes the self-righteous attitude of the Judaizers who thought their own righteousness could earn salvation, thus putting God into debt. Therefore, works of this attitude or works of debt are condemned. But expanding the context even more, we find in Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." "Deeds/works of the law" was not in any other ancient source until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These writings clarified what "works of the law" were: rabbinical interpretations, amplifications, additions, and traditions. In other words, the man-made laws. "Works of tradition" convey the intended meaning. This was referencing the cultural and sectarian practices of Judaism. We are to be faithful to God's laws, not man's. "Works of the law" in no way eliminates the salvific necessity of obedience.

And finally, what exactly is "faith"? A modern definition is "belief that is not based on proof." However, both Paul and James used Old Testament references to explain both faith and justification. Genesis 15:6 says, "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." This is found in Romans, Galatians, and James. Habakkuk 2:4 is also used: "The just shall live by faith." This is used in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. "Believed" in Gen. 15:6 is the Hebrew aman, which means "to support, to be firm, to be faithful." "Faith" in Habbakuk is emunah, meaning "faithfulness, steadfastness." Neither of these reference a kind of mental conviction. They both denote action and loyalty. They were relationship words and often associated with marriage. The Greeks, with their fame for philosophy, began to include the mental aspect in their definition of faith. Pistis, as noted at the top, is a noun that means "the conviction of truth" as well as "faithfulness, fidelity." Pisteuo, often translated "believe", is a verb meaning "to think to be true, place confidence in" and "be faithful to". Pistos is an adjective meaning "trusty, faithful." The root peitho means 1. "persuade or be persuaded", 2. "to have confidence", or 3. "to yield, to comply, to obey". All of these include both the mental aspect as well as outward action. The secular usage of pistis was in regards to treaties. One would give collateral to persuade the other of their trustworthiness. Both the persuasion and trustworthiness were incorporated in the meaning of pistis. While it could be used for either/or, it most often meant a combination of the two. This carried over into the Latin fides. A famous Roman saying was "Punica Fides". Translation: "the trustworthiness of a Carthaginian." This was synonymous with treachery due to Carthage's inability (by the Roman perception) to be faithful to treaties. It should also be noted that the Roman goddess of fidelity and trust was Fides, while the Greek equivalent was Pistis. Fides carried the same meaning as pistis until it took on a religious meaning in the 14th century (meaning the doctrines of the church were called "the faith"), while "belief" meant a mental acceptance by the 16th century: just in time for the Reformation and the development of sola fides.

Nowhere is it stated that good works are not necessary for salvation. Quite the contrary.

[Tanyan]

And that is where you are fundamentally wrong and do not fully grasp what the text says. Since you haven't looked at the link on my original post, I will just paste what the link says here, considering I've answered this in another group:

Just to be clear, when the LDS speak of salvation, they usually mean it in its fullest and complete sense (ie celestial kingdom). However, if one has the companionship of the Spirit, they could indeed consider themselves "saved" or in a saved state. Brigham Young taught, "It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground." Should we lose the Spirit, however, our salvation goes along with it. In a nutshell, the LDS believe "that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation" (D&C 20:29-33).

Eph. 2:8-10 states that we are "saved by grace through faith." The Greek "through" is dia, which means "by means of." "Faith" is pistis, meaning "the conviction of truth" as well as "faithfulness, fidelity" (I will post more on this a little later). An alternate translation could therefore be "saved by grace by means of faithfulness." Faithfulness requires action. If you eliminate action or works from the salvific essentials, you are left with a mere intellectual assent. If the formula is truly Faith = Salvation + Works, then it is nothing more than a mental concept that saves you. Yes, good works may flow from your salvation, but it was simply a thought that saved you originally. However, salvation is never spoken of as a one-time event. It is a process, as demonstrated by the past, present, and future tenses in which it is used throughout the New Testament. "Saved" in vs. 8 is the Greek perfect tense, meaning a completed action ("you have been saved") with continual results ("you are saved"). Verse 10 says that we are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The Greek is "upon good works" and it seems to indicate that these foreordained good works which we are created upon are Christ's own (though it could simply be referencing good works we are ordained to do). He indeed was obedient to eternal principles, doctrines, and commandments and we are expected to mirror this. This understanding goes along perfectly with 1 John 2:6: "He that saith he abideth in [Christ] ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." "Walk" in vs. 10 is in present tense Greek, indicating a continual, habitual action and lifestyle. One who chooses to abide in Christ is expected to follow His example. Should we cease to do so, our salvation apparently can slip away from us. Polycarp, the supposed disciple of John the Apostle, alluded to Eph. 2 when he said, "In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; " into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not of works," but by the will of God through Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philippians, AD 110-135). However, in the same epistle he said, "Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory ...For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming." He understood that grace ultimately saves, but that those who did not keep the commandments had no place in God's kingdom. I as a Latter-Day Saint find no fault with Polycarp's teaching here. Sola fide is not only unbiblical, but it is not found in Christian thought until the 16th century.

Paul instructed the saints to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philip. 2:12). "Work out" is also present tense Greek and is the word katergazomai, which means "work or bring to completion". A more literal rendering would be "You yourself keep on bringing your salvation fully to its intended goal." Should we become lazy in this salvific work, our salvation will remain incomplete and we will fall short of our intended goal. This is why the author of Hebrews states, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water (seems to allude to a ceremonial washing or even baptism. See 1 Peter 3:21). Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering...And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works" (Heb. 10:22-24). Notice that this is addressed to those who have faith and the author includes himself in this group. He then warns, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" (Heb. 10:26-27). It is possible for those in the faith to fall into apostasy. This is not a reference to those who "almost have saving faith" or whatever other nonsensical eisegesis that is laid on top of this. It clearly states that the faithful can indeed fall. And should this happen, eternal life will not await them on the other side. This is why earlier he says, "[Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9). Paul made this clear in Romans 2:6-8: "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing (Greek is literally "perseverance in good works") seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath." Only those who persevere in good works will be rewarded with eternal life, for Christ Himself said, "the Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).

Jesus defined eternal life in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." The Greek for "know" here is ginosko. It was often used as an idiom for sexual intercourse and therefore represents an intimate relationship. The same word is used by John in his first epistle: "And hereby we do know that we know (ginosko) [Christ], if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4). Commandment keeping is equivalent to obtaining eternal life. To say otherwise is, as John says, a lie. This is why James exhorts, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). Christ explicitly said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments...He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" (John 14:15, 21). Notice that Paul said we must have "faith which worketh by love" in Galatians 5:6. And "though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (or love, which Christ equates with commandment keeping), I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2).

Your exegesis of James 2 is attrociously flawed. Nowhere in scripture is justification before men taught, "saving faith" mentioned, eternal security mentioned, and "faith alone" is only found in James 2 when it says "not by..." (unless you want to pull a Martin Luther and start adding "alone" in your own translation of the Bible. So much for the "thou shalt not add or take away" mindset...). James 2 and Romans 4 both use the Greek dikaiwo for justified. They both use Gen. 15:6 and Abraham as an example of justification. If Paul is talking about justification before God and James is talking about justification before men, then they contradict each other. One would therefore be misinterpreting the verse. The truth of the matter is that James is also talking about justification in a salvific sense, made evident by "can faith save him?" (James 2:14; the Greek is "can the faith save him?" and indicates that a negative answer is expected. Obviously, faith alone will not save). James continues: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (Greek means "barren, unfruitful, unprofitable." Peter taught that we must abound in diligence, faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity if we did not want to be "barren or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" [2 Peter 1:5-8]) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God (Christ said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" [John 15:13-14]). Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:20-24). It makes it clear that the justification that took place in Gen. 15:6 was fulfilled AFTER the attempted sacrifice. And the angel of the Lord made it very clear who the sacrifice was for: "For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen. 22:12). This was justification before God, not man. This was a salvific act. Paul does not declare that works are unnecessary for salvation, but condemns certain kinds: "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Rom. 4:4). Paul demonstrated that good works were essential for eternal life in Romans 2, but in that same chapter he thrashes the self-righteous attitude of the Judaizers who thought their own righteousness could earn salvation, thus putting God into debt. Therefore, works of this attitude or works of debt are condemned. But expanding the context even more, we find in Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." "Deeds/works of the law" was not in any other ancient source until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These writings clarified what "works of the law" were: rabbinical interpretations, amplifications, additions, and traditions. In other words, the man-made laws. "Works of tradition" convey the intended meaning. This was referencing the cultural and sectarian practices of Judaism. We are to be faithful to God's laws, not man's. "Works of the law" in no way eliminates the salvific necessity of obedience.

And finally, what exactly is "faith"? A modern definition is "belief that is not based on proof." However, both Paul and James used Old Testament references to explain both faith and justification. Genesis 15:6 says, "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." This is found in Romans, Galatians, and James. Habakkuk 2:4 is also used: "The just shall live by faith." This is used in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. "Believed" in Gen. 15:6 is the Hebrew aman, which means "to support, to be firm, to be faithful." "Faith" in Habbakuk is emunah, meaning "faithfulness, steadfastness." Neither of these reference a kind of mental conviction. They both denote action and loyalty. They were relationship words and often associated with marriage. The Greeks, with their fame for philosophy, began to include the mental aspect in their definition of faith. Pistis, as noted at the top, is a noun that means "the conviction of truth" as well as "faithfulness, fidelity." Pisteuo, often translated "believe", is a verb meaning "to think to be true, place confidence in" and "be faithful to". Pistos is an adjective meaning "trusty, faithful." The root peitho means 1. "persuade or be persuaded", 2. "to have confidence", or 3. "to yield, to comply, to obey". All of these include both the mental aspect as well as outward action. The secular usage of pistis was in regards to treaties. One would give collateral to persuade the other of their trustworthiness. Both the persuasion and trustworthiness were incorporated in the meaning of pistis. While it could be used for either/or, it most often meant a combination of the two. This carried over into the Latin fides. A famous Roman saying was "Punica Fides". Translation: "the trustworthiness of a Carthaginian." This was synonymous with treachery due to Carthage's inability (by the Roman perception) to be faithful to treaties. It should also be noted that the Roman goddess of fidelity and trust was Fides, while the Greek equivalent was Pistis. Fides carried the same meaning as pistis until it took on a religious meaning in the 14th century (meaning the doctrines of the church were called "the faith"), while "belief" meant a mental acceptance by the 16th century: just in time for the Reformation and the development of sola fides.

Nowhere is it stated that good works are not necessary for salvation. Quite the contrary.

Reklaw, my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus, truth you post, when will they understand the Anchient Old World Heartset and Mindset of the Anchient Saints/Christians ?. They have truth but refuse to enter back into that world. I will be interested in a critique of the above post.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Reklaw]

Reklaw, my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus, truth you post, when will they understand the Anchient Old World Heartset and Mindset of the Anchient Saints/Christians ?. They have truth but refuse to enter back into that world. I will be interested in a critique of the above post.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I didn't want to just copy-and-paste, but no one ever looks at the link provided. I will be interested in hearing the critique as well.

[Tanyan]

Reklaw are you familiar with the True Salvation Triangle ?.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Reklaw are you familiar with the True Salvation Triangle ?.

I have in a sence. One needs Grace to be saved, but you need faith to recieve grace and faith with out works is dead and cannot save you. All three are dependant on each other. If one of those is missing you will not be saved. I prefer to look at it like a tripod as they support you if all there are there. But what ever.