Lady Wisdom as Co-Creator?

[Benjamin McGuire]

By the way, in the KJV, verse 22:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

"his way" is essentially the same construction as talking about a man having "his way" with his wife ...

[Doctor Steuss]

I have been compiling a series of infodumps on CoJCoLDS Doctrine in the Deuterocanon and other texts of the Jewish Apocrypha. It has been rather illuminative and exciting. I wish I had access to my notes at the moment. Those references were just from memory and a quick Google search.

Worthless tid-bit, but Sirach was quoted in General Conference somewhat recently â?? although it was simply referred to as â??the Apocrypha.â? To the best of my knowledge, thatâ??s the first time an apocryphal text was utilized in a conference address.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Sirach is a blending of a reading of Proverbs and a reading of Job (which also has significant sections of sapiential material). So it represents developments in the Wisdom tradition:

He created her, has seen her and taken note* of her. He has poured her forth upon all his works, upon every living thing according to his bounty; he has lavished her upon his friends.

So, God created her (prov. 8:22), sees her (Job 28:27), counted her (Job 28:27), and she is poured out on creation (Prov. 8:22)

* the taken note of her could also be translated "counted", assuming that Greek for "numbered" is lexically equivalent here to the Hebrew spr.

But in Sirach we also get something quite new - Sirach identifies Wisdom explicitly with Torah probably based on the connection made in Deut. 4:5-8.

Then the Creator of all things gave me a command, and my Creator chose a place for my tent. He said, â??make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel receive you inheritanceâ??. â?¦ In the holy tent I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus, in the beloved city he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took root in an honored people, in the portion of Yahweh, his heritage. (24:8-12).

It's worth pointing out the connection also to Deut. 4:19-20 here.

Later in the same chapter:

All this is the book of the covenant of the Most High God, the law that Moses commanded us as an inheritance for the

congregations of Jacob.

This aspect of Sirach (at least) is completely rejected by early Christianity. But it represents perhaps a layer of literature attempting to remove or redirect the idea of a salvation apart from the law in Wisdom - as wisdom becomes a personification of the law.

But, other notions in Sirach are embraced by the early church. In 24:10 we are told that Wisdom ministered in Israel's tabernacle. The language must describe a human ministering to God (and not the other way around), and in Chapter 50, we get a narrative in which Wisdom is incarnated in Israel's High Priest. And it is this High Priest who ministers as Wisdom before God in the tabernacle. In Sirach, it is Simon the High Priest who is the embodiment of Wisdom.

This gets translated in the New Testament into Jesus as the embodiment of Wisdom. Particularly in texts like Matthew 11:16-19 and Luke 7:31-32 as well as Matthew 23:34 and Luke 11:49. But see also, for example stuff like John 6:35's response to Sirach 24:19-21

Sirach 24:19-21:

Come to me, you who desire me, and eat your fill of my fruits. â?¦ Those who eat

of me will hunger still, and those who drink of me will thirst still.

John 6:35 (also John 4:14):

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never

hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Or, the similar kind of parallel between Matthew 11:29-30 and Sirach 6:19-31

Matthew 11:29-30

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and

ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Sirach 6:19-31

Come to her like one who plows and sows and wait for her good harvest. For

when you cultivate her you will toil but little, and soon you will ear of her

produce. She seems very harsh to the undisciplined; fools cannot remain with her.

She will be like a heavy stone to test them, and they will not delay in casting her

aside. â?¦ Put your feet into her fetters, and your neck into her collar. Bend your

shoulders and carry her, and do not fret under her bonds. Come to her with all

your soul, and keep her ways with all your might. â?¦ For at last you will find the

rest she gives, and she will be changed into joy for you. Then her fetters will

become for you a strong defense, and her collar a glorious robe. Her yoke is a

golden ornament, and her bonds a purple cord. You will wear her like a glorious

robe, and put her on like a splendid crown.

There is another similar situation between Matthew 8:20/Luke 9:58 and Sirach 24:6-11

Ben M.

[mfbukowski]

There is another similar situation between Matthew 8:20/Luke 9:58 and Sirach 24:6-11

Ben M.

I wish I knew more about this so I could make an intelligent reply, but I can't. I suspect that you will not get many replies for the same reason, so I just wanted to say great stuff and thanks!

[BCSpace]

Are we saying God created his own wife?

You thinking Stepford? I am.....

Im not, but the writer of Proverbs may have believed that. Or he may have seen Lady Wisdom as God's daughter.

Well, another way to think about it is that husband and wives are created when relationships are consumated. I'm sure somone will get bent out of shape over this, but there is precedent for this line of thinking in the scriptures and the principle may have found it's way into the Law.....

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damselâ??s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Deut 22

Now in no way am I implying that God raped someone, just a possible principle that consumation creates a marriage.

[mfbukowski]

You thinking Stepford? I am.....

Well, another way to think about it is that husband and wives are created when relationships are consumated. I'm sure somone will get bent out of shape over this, but there is precedent for this line of thinking in the scriptures and the principle may have found it's way into the Law.....

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Deut 22

Now in no way am I implying that God raped someone, just a possible principle that consumation creates a marriage.

I think this is why we don't know anything about this.